Where are the Hornby models?

[Ozexpatriate]

I can understand there may be problems if the tooling for existing models has been transferred to another factory, but is that actually the case? Hornby models are still coming from the Sanda Kan factory as reported by Pat Hammond in a recent MREMag.

Mike addresses this below, but none of Hornby's models are coming from Sanda Kan. Hornby was very clear in one of their reports that Kader shut down the old Sanda Kan factory.

 

The answer has to be the allocation of production slots.

No, I don't think so. I think the problem is ramping up a new factory.

 

Some interesting comments in there and some of them do align with what I've heard from other sources while some don't.  There is a story abroad - definitely not from SK I hasten to add - that Hornby have received nothing at all from Kader this year.  But what does that actually mean?  According to Hornby's own forecasts earlier this year only 13% of their 2013 supply chain was expected to be coming from Kader compared with 36% last year - perhaps some of the delayed from previous year's items were from Kader and were put back and aren't in that figure?  But in reality we simply don't know and in any case is the story about nothing from Kader correct?

And I believe those percentage numbers apply to total production volumes including Corgi, Airfix and Scalextric.

 

In their most recent annual report Hornby says:

The Group purchases goods, in the main, from third party Chinese suppliers due to the significant cost advantage when compared to products manufactured in Europe. The principal suppliers to the Group are Refined, Kader, CLT, Zindart and Micro Plastics (India), who between them are expected to contribute 88% in 2013.

To the best of my guessing,

 

Zindart make Corgi

Micro Plastics, make Airfix

Kader, we know about

Refined Industry Co. Ltd. - clearly might make model trains (or Scalextric)

CLT ???

 

So far CLT is one I haven't found online yet.There is a Hong Kong jewellery company of the same name.

 

I read some time back (I can't remember where so treat it as a rumour) that some people left Sanda Kan to form a new company. My otherwise unfounded guess is that this is a small company with limited means/equipment/people skilled in model railways.

 

Even if that's not the case, what SK tells Mike makes evident sense. They are trying to ramp up production in a new factory, probably one that has not been doing high quality railway models for more than ten years. Perhaps they don't have as many tampo printers as Kader/Sanda Kan. Perhaps they don't have as many injection machines or NC drill machines. Perhaps they don't have may people who have learned how to apply details/lining yet. They are clearly having all kinds of production ramp up issues. It's not really that surprising.

[Ozexpatriate]

It was a bad day for British jobs when Hornby moved production over seas and now it seems it's not working out. It's always a bad sign when a company puts a new man in charge.

Lets all keep our fingers crossed that they pull through.

 

Lots of thoughts there Shaun,

 

It was a bad day for British jobs when Hornby moved production over seas

Yes, but they would have gone out of business if they didn't, which would have cost more jobs and a fine company for us to do business with.

 

now it seems it's not working out

Yes, the company they chose to work with went out of business five years ago. They are still trying to recover. (Atlas and Walthers used the same company too, so it wasn't a 'bad' choice on the surface.

 

It's always a bad sign when a company puts a new man in charge.

Not when the old man made a lot of big mistakes.

 

Lets all keep our fingers crossed that they pull through.

Yes, certainly.

[Ceptic]

But have they?  I know for a fact (from another retailer) that one date quoted by Hattons for a particular Hornby item is completely different from the date quoted by Hornby on their website!

 

....Snip

 At the very least, Hattons are having a go, at keeping their customers informed, amid difficult circumstances / predictions afforded by Hornby.

If only their 'Main men' would do the same ? 

 

I don't have a trade account with the 'Company', so I do not have access to their trade conversations.

My own experience on contacting Hornby, via e-mail to 'Customer Support' ?,....is that, they acknowledge the receipt of,... but,  no further communications are received.

 

I'm sure Simon Kohler is doing his very best. His heart supports Hornby ..but, I ask myself....Is he getting internal (Company) support ?

I'd hate to think he's in there,....alone ?.

 

Regards. 

[Legend]

Absolutely the new man has been put in too late. What you are seeing now is the aftermath of Frank Martin , that despite having issues for the last 5 years failed to secure manufacturing capacity to take the company forward. Was it good business sense to have all your eggs in one (Sanda kan) basket. Surely very risky. A more diversified approach would have been warranted. This is not to mention the disaster of the Olympics!

 

Really bad management. People were happy when they were coining the money but now the chickens are well and truly home to roost. I'll wager that Hornby are negotiating each slot with manufacturers , are late to the party and having to secure what they can. This would account for the spasmodic supply and the relatively low numbers being achieved.

 

This does matter because the relatively low supply of models means they are not generating revenue. Bad enough for Hornby, but what about their poor customers the model shops that ate now being starved of a living. Not helped, incidentally by Hornbys flawed direct to the customer sales plan (they keep the retailers margin this way, but an unfortunate consequence may be there are less model shops around!)

 

So more power to the new mans elbow. He has a lot to sort out!

[valeofyork]

This is not to mention the disaster of the Olympics!

 

What happened to the piles of nasty olympic-themed tat which remained unsold? Was it all written off and dumped?

[darren01]

Hi

My local shop has hardly any Hornby in his shop; he has had one or two small deliveries over the last couple of months.But not very much at all, the last new item he did get was the shutters truck and then he only got eight of theses in, He is now stocking more Bachmann models now as he said he cannot make a living with the currant supply he has been getting from Hornby.He said all the years that he has been selling model railways, that this is the worst it has ever been.Now if this is just one shop that is on hard times, I do wonder how many more up and down the country are feeling this as well.It is very sad to see Hornby this way and I do hope they sort out where they are going in the future, if they have one?.

Darren

[mow]

Wrong models, wrong time, wrong price, wrong quantities, and not meeting customer expectations, not a way to secure survival in a market. 

[brushman47544]

Mike addresses this below, but none of Hornby's models are coming from Sanda Kan. Hornby was very clear in one of their reports that Kader shut down the old Sanda Kan factory.

 

No, I don't think so. I think the problem is ramping up a new factory.

 

As regards Sanda Kan, why would Pat Hammond have got it wrong, and the Kader and other websites still refer to Sanda Kan factories in a way that suggests some at least still produce model railways. Perhaps the main one producing for Hornby has been closed but others remain open?

 

Yes, I agree part of the problem will be ramping up a new factory, but I still think production slots is a factor. Hornby has already received models from a new factory - e.g. the 2-BIL, that have met the quality requirements yet we are only now seeing the promised A versions. What about the Pull-Push sets and "unconverted" Maunsell 3rds? Either these are from Sanda Kan or the new factory... And look at the new P2 - a superb looking model based on the pre-production images we've seen so far. That must be from the new factory...

 

So whilst I can certainly believe there are problems ramping up the new factory, something else must be at play as well or surely we would have already seen re-runs of models already produced by the new factory(ies)?

[Ian Hargrave]

This thread is fuelling more speculation than the stock-market.The only given factor is that we don't know. If Hornby,as I've suggested above,would only give us a regular 'grown-up' newsletter,containing details of what is-and what is not-happening,it would help  modellers,retailers and,best of all,Hornby themselves to re-establish integrity and stability into the situation.

[Removed a/c]

Not sure if it is just me but for most of the Hornby models I never feel that I am getting value for money compared to Bachmann products. 

[andytrains]

Not sure if it is just me but for most of the Hornby models I never feel that I am getting value for money compared to Bachmann products. 

I bought the Hornby B1, when it was available and I think it is better than the Bachmann one, but £30 dearer!

However I think in the main you are right.

The main thing is to have the choice, which we have not got from H at the moment.

[valeofyork]

Not sure if it is just me but for most of the Hornby models I never feel that I am getting value for money compared to Bachmann products. 

 

Some times- e.g. I don't think the Hornby new 67 is as good as the Bachmann 57, despite the latter being cheaper and an older tooling.

 

The Hornby HST power cars are as good as or better than anything from Bachmann though (well, some of them - livery and detailing is not as good as it could be on some of the post-privatisation ones).

[Ozexpatriate]

As regards Sanda Kan, why would Pat Hammond have got it wrong, and the Kader and other websites still refer to Sanda Kan factories in a way that suggests some at least still produce model railways. Perhaps the main one producing for Hornby has been closed but others remain open?

Andrew,

 

the fact that the Kader website lists Sanda Kan bothered me too. But I have two data points. One was the 2013 Hornby Annual Report that directly stated that the factory where most of their models had been manufactured had been closed. 

Hornby sources the majority of its products in China and India, via third‑party contract manufacturers. During the year model railway supplies from the Group’s largest supplier in China, reduced considerably after their decision to close down the main factory supplying Hornby and transfer activity to another that didn’t have the experience of producing our products

No, it doesn't explicitly say Sanda Kan, but when you factor it in with all the other data about reducing the percentage volume manufactured by Kader what else could it be?

 

Hornby's 2012 interim report also says this, as does a statement made on July 26, 2012.

1. Very substantial disruption to supplies caused by a major rationalisation programme being implemented by one of our largest suppliers in China.

Shutting down one of their factories would be 'major' rationalisation.

 

The second was a comment by someone of this parish very much in the know who also said that Sanda Kan had been closed down. At the time I couldn't rationalize this observation, but it is consistent with the public statements made by Hornby and really explains why they can't seem to produce models of the quality that they used to. They are simply not being done by the same people in the same factory.

 

Corporate websites are often stale and the fact that Sanda Kan is still listed on the Kader Manufacturing Services page is not a guarantee that the old Sanda Kan factory is still operational.

[phil gollin]

.

 

I DESPAIR of Hornby.

 

Hattons have just received in a new batch of 2-BILS  -  outwardly excellent news, however ........

 

This is a new batch of the R.3177 NRM Pack

 

http://www.ehattons.com/60196/Hornby_R3177_Class_401_2_BIL_2_car_EMU_in_BR_green_livery_NRM_pack/StockDetail.aspx

 

Why not a "new" unit stock number ?

 

Yes, there must be people who want to complete their collection by getting the "original" NRM release (including OF COURSE the NRM) but at a time when Hornby are looking for sales with SEEMINGLY limited production slots, why not a standard 2-BIL with a new unit number ?   They have had plenty of time to make the very minor changes required and it would attract "second sales" from people who want to double up on their EMUs.

 

.

[Removed a/c]

Some times- e.g. I don't think the Hornby new 67 is as good as the Bachmann 57, despite the latter being cheaper and an older tooling.

 

The Hornby HST power cars are as good as or better than anything from Bachmann though (well, some of them - livery and detailing is not as good as it could be on some of the post-privatisation ones).

Yes the HSTs are nice but pricey !! Looks like the Blue/Grey can be had for £160 which seems high considering one is a dummy.  I could get 2 powered Bachmann 47s for not much more. 

[Frappington Jct]

 At the very least, Hattons are having a go, at keeping their customers informed, amid difficult circumstances / predictions afforded by Hornby.

If only their 'Main men' would do the same ? 

 

I don't have a trade account with the 'Company', so I do not have access to their trade conversations.

My own experience on contacting Hornby, via e-mail to 'Customer Support' ?,....is that, they acknowledge the receipt of,... but,  no further communications are received.

 

I'm sure Simon Kohler is doing his very best. His heart supports Hornby ..but, I ask myself....Is he getting internal (Company) support ?

I'd hate to think he's in there,....alone ?.

 

Regards. 

I really hope Hattons dates aren't too out, i've had a Hornby "forthcoming" special edition model of A4 60019 "Bittern" with double tender on order from hattons for the last two years.

 

I'm getting very bored now.

 

The amount of emails I've had setting it back is currently at 10, with one setting it forward a month last december. It's currently set back to this november. I'm not very hopeful.

 

If its not here by Warely weekend, I think I might pull out and go spend some more money on some of the new Bachmann model (1008, J11 (if released))

 

EDIT: Just had another e-mail from hattons. My model now isn't due until Christmas day. I really do give up on Hornby.

[The Stationmaster]

Andrew,

 

the fact that the Kader website lists Sanda Kan bothered me too. But I have two data points. One was the 2013 Hornby Annual Report that directly stated that the factory where most of their models had been manufactured had been closed. 

No, it doesn't explicitly say Sanda Kan, but when you factor it in with all the other data about reducing the percentage volume manufactured by Kader what else could it be?

 

Hornby's 2012 interim report also says this, as does a statement made on July 26, 2012.

Shutting down one of their factories would be 'major' rationalisation.

 

The second was a comment by someone of this parish very much in the know who also said that Sanda Kan had been closed down. At the time I couldn't rationalize this observation, but it is consistent with the public statements made by Hornby and really explains why they can't seem to produce models of the quality that they used to. They are simply not being done by the same people in the same factory.

 

Corporate websites are often stale and the fact that Sanda Kan is still listed on the Kader Manufacturing Services page is not a guarantee that the old Sanda Kan factory is still operational.

Sanda Kan's main factory was closed several years ago according to various sources on the 'net following which supplies to a large number of companies ceased.  Kader also refer to rationalisation of what they took over from Sanda Kan.  It might be that some Hornby product is manufactured in a former Sanda Kan factory but that company has not existed as separate entity for several years.

 

But whatever the situation is in that respect the simple fact is that Hornby planned to massively reduce its reliance on Kader Group in 2013 - dropping from 36% of their products coming from them in 2012 to an estimated 13% coming from them in 2013 while at the same time the percentage coming from Refined Railway would rise from 9% to 16% and that from Microplastics would rise from 3% to 11%.  Those figures indicate to me a very substantial move away from manufacture by the Kader Group and clear development of two previously fairly small suppliers.  Thus SK's comment to me makes considerable sense with a major change occurring in what appears to be model railway sourcing for Hornby and hence a learning curve.

[valeofyork]

Yes the HSTs are nice but pricey !! Looks like the Blue/Grey can be had for £160 which seems high considering one is a dummy.  I could get 2 powered Bachmann 47s for not much more. 

Yes, they are expensive. Oddly they seem to have got quite a bit more expensive than the previous releases, which is odd as the tooling has probably paid for itself by now!

[petethemole]

I wonder if Hatton's new supply of 2-BILs is related to the closure of Modelzone rather than a new delivery?

 

Pete

[micklner]

Not sure if it is just me but for most of the Hornby models I never feel that I am getting value for money compared to Bachmann products. 

       Sorry their Locos and in general Coaches are miles ahead of Bachmann in the quality of the mouldings, painting and lining.

       Bachmann other than the most recent releases still rely on some very tired models.

       As a LNER modeller the only Bachmann LNER Models of real quality are the B1 (nowhere as good as the Hornby version) A2 poor/missing lining and wrong LNER Green and the K3 wrong LNER lining again.

      Dire are the A4 compared with superb Hornby version, V2 ,V1 and a passable J39 (poor chassis ) . All the Tenders for these Locos are miles behind in quality poor shape heavy mould lines etc.

     Where Hornby do lag behind are in wagons Bachmann have produced some excellent quality items for all companies.

     The best Hornby have managed are the GWR Horseboxes and the Trout wagons , sadly as mentioned above try finding any to buy !!

[Removed a/c]

       Sorry their Locos and in general Coaches are miles ahead of Bachmann in the quality of the mouldings, painting and lining.

       Bachmann other than the most recent releases still rely on some very tired models.

       As a LNER modeller the only Bachmann LNER Models of real quality are the B1 (nowhere as good as the Hornby version) A2 poor/missing lining and wrong LNER Green and the K3 wrong LNER lining again.

      Dire are the A4 compared with superb Hornby version, V2 ,V1 and a passable J39 (poor chassis ) . All the Tenders for these Locos are miles behind in quality poor shape heavy mould lines etc.

     Where Hornby do lag behind are in wagons Bachmann have produced some excellent quality items for all companies.

     The best Hornby have managed are the GWR Horseboxes and the Trout wagons , sadly as mentioned above try finding any to buy !!

I guess it depends on what you are collecting, have you seen the Hornby MK2Ds? They don't even have a NEM pocket, neither do the MK3s! Their 47 isn't up to much either and is not much cheaper than the Bachmann one. I don't collect steam so I cannot comment on that. I just seem to get more bang for my buck with Bachmann. 

['CHARD]

Yes, they are expensive. Oddly they seem to have got quite a bit more expensive than the previous releases, which is odd as the tooling has probably paid for itself by now!

 

Fully depreciated tooling has no bearing in setting prices, only in determining cost of manufacture.  

 

Yes, Hornby have been criticised for erratic-seeming prices, but I don't think this is one. There's no competing model, they are popular - time to capitalise and make some serious margins.

[valeofyork]

Fully depreciated tooling has no bearing in setting prices, only in determining cost of manufacture.  

 

Yes, Hornby have been criticised for erratic-seeming prices, but I don't think this is one. There's no competing model, they are popular - time to capitalise and make some serious margins.

 

Or to over-price and end up with them hanging around!

 

In fairness with this livery they probably will sell in a reasonable time frame - can't see the same being the case with any other liveries (apart from Intercity swallow). Certainly, the East Coast ones which started at 150 quid and were subsequently reduced to 99 were still hanging around in Modelzone shops as they closed, despite this being a limited production run exclusive to Modelzone.

['CHARD]

       Sorry their Locos and in general Coaches are miles ahead of Bachmann in the quality of the mouldings, painting and lining.

       Bachmann other than the most recent releases still rely on some very tired models.

       As a LNER modeller the only Bachmann LNER Models of real quality are the B1 (nowhere as good as the Hornby version) A2 poor/missing lining and wrong LNER Green and the K3 wrong LNER lining again.

      Dire are the A4 compared with superb Hornby version, V2 ,V1 and a passable J39 (poor chassis ) . All the Tenders for these Locos are miles behind in quality poor shape heavy mould lines etc.

     Where Hornby do lag behind are in wagons Bachmann have produced some excellent quality items for all companies.

     The best Hornby have managed are the GWR Horseboxes and the Trout wagons , sadly as mentioned above try finding any to buy !!

 

As a recent newcomer (regresser) to steam, I tend to agree - LNER types are 40% of my staple diet and Barwell's are frankly clunky compared to Hornby's, where I'm able to make a semi-informed comparison.

 

I'd tend to question the coach assertion - the evolving MkI range has reached something of an unassailable quality and value for money with the postals and now the sleepers.  Closely related, Bachmann make multiple units in abundance - including the Derby Lightweight which is practically filigree in its detail; their Met-Cam will no doubt eclipse Hornby's good effort (which is of Lima descent).  So for me, neither company excels here.

 

With diesels, I've no use for modern types, and only Hornby's 50 features in my plans.  However, Bachmann's Peak is pretty legendary, and their 47 and Deltic tidy enough, sadly their Type 2 lets the side down.  They just shade it for me over Hornby.

 

Final score 1₁\² : 1₁\²

 

 

^{EDIT: Wagons - Bachmann runs away with this category to be honest.  Sorry, Hornby.}

[micklner]

Sorry i should have made it more clearer that i was refering to steam era . Clueless re Diesel etc.

 

From  todays BRM web page.

 

Hornby Hobbies
Hornby Hobbies have some new 2013 items on display at the Peterborough Show including:

BR 4-6-2 Class 8 ‘Duke of Gloucester

LNER 2-8-2 P2 Class ‘Cock o’ the North’

BR 4-6-0 Road

Ashton Hall 4900 class

GLOR 4-6-0 ‘Knight of the Grand Cross’ 4000 class.

There will also be limited edition Hornby 2013 Roadshow Wagon limited to 1000 and other limited edition items including:

BR 4-6-0 ‘Glastonbury Abbey’ 4000 class

4wDM 0-4-0 sentinel, CCT

Van - 4 wheel, 12 ton fish van

12 ton SPVA parcels van.

 

 

So there maybe something to buy after all !!