Where are the Hornby models?

[Ceptic]

I wonder if Hatton's new supply of 2-BILs is related to the closure of Modelzone rather than a new delivery?

 

Pete

 I agree Pete.  Glad to see someone's picked this up.

 

That would explain the sudden influx of extra supplies of the first batch of 2-BILs. Supplies of which were, severely, curtailed to non-concessionaire outlets during the initial scramble   

[The Stationmaster]

Yes, they are expensive. Oddly they seem to have got quite a bit more expensive than the previous releases, which is odd as the tooling has probably paid for itself by now!

The £ has fallen, some raw material prices have risen, and Chinese production costs have also risen so why is it odd that prices should rise?  While tooling costs might have been amortised over earlier batches a similar situation can be seen with many other Chinese produced model railway items, and not just from Hornby, where the price of the most recent batch is higher than that of previous batches.  For example a number of Bachmann steam outline locos now have an RRP in the region of £140-150 notwithstanding the fact that they have been in production for some years and in the past had a much lower RRP.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry i should have made it more clearer that i was refering to steam era . Clueless re Diesel etc.

 

From  todays BRM web page.

 

Hornby Hobbies

Hornby Hobbies have some new 2013 items on display at the Peterborough Show including:

 

BR 4-6-2 Class 8 ‘Duke of Gloucester

 

LNER 2-8-2 P2 Class ‘Cock o’ the North’

 

BR 4-6-0 Road

 

Ashton Hall 4900 class

 

GLOR 4-6-0 ‘Knight of the Grand Cross’ 4000 class.

 

There will also be limited edition Hornby 2013 Roadshow Wagon limited to 1000 and other limited edition items including:

 

BR 4-6-0 ‘Glastonbury Abbey’ 4000 class

 

4wDM 0-4-0 sentinel, CCT

 

Van - 4 wheel, 12 ton fish van

 

12 ton SPVA parcels van.

 

 

So there maybe something to buy after all !!

All of those were on display at Swindon last weekend.

[Ozexpatriate]

... a number of Bachmann steam outline locos now have an RRP in the region of £140-150 notwithstanding the fact that they have been in production for some years and in the past had a much lower RRP.

Indeed.

 

A2 (£149.50)

O4 (£129.95) - weathered is £139.95

A4 (£129.40)

Jubilee (£139.95)

Patriot (£129.95)

BR 5MT (£123.00)

9F (weathered) (£145.90)

 

And where the devil is that Dukedog? When was it announced again? //end rhetorical question//

[robmcg]

One wonders if with the difficulties Hornby are having with supply, Bachmann UK are trying to increase margins.

 

Regardless of that, £150 seems to be a new norm for the best 00 steam era models now, without sound.

[Multiple identity account 2]

       Sorry their Locos and in general Coaches are miles ahead of Bachmann in the quality of the mouldings, painting and lining.

       Bachmann other than the most recent releases still rely on some very tired models.

       As a LNER modeller the only Bachmann LNER Models of real quality are the B1 (nowhere as good as the Hornby version) A2 poor/missing lining and wrong LNER Green and the K3 wrong LNER lining again.

      Dire are the A4 compared with superb Hornby version, V2 ,V1 and a passable J39 (poor chassis ) . All the Tenders for these Locos are miles behind in quality poor shape heavy mould lines etc.

     Where Hornby do lag behind are in wagons Bachmann have produced some excellent quality items for all companies.

     The best Hornby have managed are the GWR Horseboxes and the Trout wagons , sadly as mentioned above try finding any to buy !!

You basically said what was on my mind.... IMHO Hornby is miles ahead of Bachmann in many areas.

[darren01]

Hi

I got a news letter to day for Hornby, all it was a die cast loco done by corgi!.

Ho And this bits as well;

Date 28/08/2013

We are excited to announce the brand new official eBay Archive Shop for Hornby Hobbies Ltd where you can find exciting products from across our brands.

Every time we release a new model we keep a small number of samples for the archive here in Margate. We often need to make space in the archive for our brand new releases and so we are delighted to give you the chance to bid for some very special items on eBay. Many of the models we will be able to offer are rare and hard to find and we will also be including lots of limited edition items – many with very low certificate numbers.

All items will be in brand new condition with complete packaging unless otherwise stated.

[micklner]

You basically said what was on my mind.... IMHO Hornby is miles ahead of Bachmann in many areas.

Just to add to my previous I forgot some of the Thompsons the L1 (other than dodgy bogies) and the O1 58are simply superb . RE Coaches the Gresley Suburbans are again 5* I still havent seen a Thompson version in the flesh due to the lack of modelshops (I live in NE London how sad is that) with their "strange" Teak finish other than that they look stunning too . The recent souhtern stock is superb too.

 

Bachmann dont do anything that comes close IMHO.

[brushman47544]

Sorry i should have made it more clearer that i was refering to steam era . Clueless re Diesel etc.

 

From  todays BRM web page.

 

Hornby Hobbies

Hornby Hobbies have some new 2013 items on display at the Peterborough Show including:

 

BR 4-6-2 Class 8 ‘Duke of Gloucester

 

LNER 2-8-2 P2 Class ‘Cock o’ the North’

 

BR 4-6-0 Road

 

Ashton Hall 4900 class

 

GLOR 4-6-0 ‘Knight of the Grand Cross’ 4000 class.

 

There will also be limited edition Hornby 2013 Roadshow Wagon limited to 1000 and other limited edition items including:

 

BR 4-6-0 ‘Glastonbury Abbey’ 4000 class

 

4wDM 0-4-0 sentinel, CCT

 

Van - 4 wheel, 12 ton fish van

 

12 ton SPVA parcels van.

 

 

So there maybe something to buy after all !!

 

The regular uploading (to Facebook etc.) of new images suggests that Hornby (and to be fair Bachmann too) are making good progress well with the development of new models. The delays seem to be getting the models manufactured once they have been signed off for full production.

[caradoc]

A quick survey on a well-known box-shifter's website shows the following supply levels, including Railroad and Junior types:

 

OO Steam:

Hornby: 90 advertised, 23 available

Bachmann: 116 advertised, 64 available

 

OO Diesel:

Hornby: 22 advertised, 13 available

Bachmann: 69 advertised, 31 available

 

Notwithstanding quality issues, in terms of the range offered Hornby have clearly been left well behind by Bachmann. I model BR blue, for which Hornby produce practically nothing, not even the ubiqitous class 08: There has not been a blue 08 in their range for years, and even their green versions are only available sound-fitted. Yet they still produce the hideous Railroad 08 in blue ! Other than the 31, there are no other Hornby non-Railroad blue diesels, while in contrast Bachmann provide classes 03, 08, 20, 24/25, 37, 40, 42/43, 45/46, 47 and 55. As for DMUs, there is no point comparing ranges.

 

I have no inbuilt bias for or against any manufacturer, but I cannot buy what they don't produce.

[7013]

How good a loco is depends on what you are buying. I personally see little or no difference between Hornby and Bachmann quality. The best running locos I have are the Hornby Cl 50 and the Bachmann DP1, In steam locos the Hornby O1 is a stunning runner but does have an issue with the front bogie which was difficult to sort out.

[coachmann]

It sounds like the O1 has the 'traditional' LMS 8F pony truck....also fitted to the L1 2-6-4T. This is where Hornby is spoiling the ship for halfpence worth of tar by using existing (innapropriate) parts.

[Barry O]

having weathered a Hornby GW shunters truck at Swindon I have to say that the model is very good (no measurements so don't know if its OK scale wise) The way teh handrails are fitted is very good - and easily better than some of the Bachmann wagons I own.

 

As for deliveries - you may find some items have arrived today as a couple of big boxes appeared at Crafty Hobbies in Barrow this am.

 

I wish Hornby well - they are not the only ones with supply/quality issues - I just wish that they would upgrade the Princess and some of their older models..

[micklner]

All of those were on display at Swindon last weekend.

This is the previous page on the BRM site

 

 

The National Festival of Railway Modelling will be held on 23 and 24 March at Peterborough Arena - East of England Showground and ticket orders are flooding in for this must attend event. We are delighted to announce some launches and new products for the show including the launch of the all new DC Kits Class 144 Unit, new products from N Brass Locos plus Hornby Hobbies will have new 2013 locos, limited edition wagons and other items on sale.

 

 

Whether that means Hornby will have actually have anything new to sell ?? your guess is as good as mine !! and it was the reason I posted  the previous list . I am guessing it refers to the bottom part of the list as being available ?

 

I think they mean October 2013 not March 2014

[Frappington Jct]

Indeed.

 

A2 (£149.50)

O4 (£129.95) - weathered is £139.95

A4 (£129.40)

Jubilee (£139.95)

Patriot (£129.95)

BR 5MT (£123.00)

9F (weathered) (£145.90)

 

And where the devil is that Dukedog? When was it announced again? //end rhetorical question//

 

 

One wonders if with the difficulties Hornby are having with supply, Bachmann UK are trying to increase margins.

 

Regardless of that, £150 seems to be a new norm for the best 00 steam era models now, without sound.

 

I agree entirely with those Bachmann prices (way too high) but I must say, even though a lot of prices are now quite steep, I've been impressed lately with some of the prices coming out of Bachmann for new steam engines:

3F = £83.80

4F = £89.95 (thats a whole £17 less than the much inferior Hornby model)

1F = £79.75

J11 = £89.95

1008 = £83.95

57xx weathered = £80.75!

 

Yes, I know they're all small engines, and yes I know that as good as £80-£90 is still expensive, but, they're alot cheaper than I for one have been used to, and they're a god send for me. I'm dependent on monthly pocket money, which makes modelling the steam era rather difficult in terms of buying stock, yet Bachmann is giving me hope thatI might have a decent amount of stock within the next 10 years!

 

And come on, who's not even a tad surprised that a weathered pannier will set you back LESS than alot of railroad models

 

On another positive note, I know this is only estimated, but Hattons is showing an estimated price for Bachmanns new H2 atlantic of only £89! An express tender engine (albeit a small one) for only £89!

[bigherb]

I guess it depends on what you are collecting, have you seen the Hornby MK2Ds? They don't even have a NEM pocket, neither do the MK3s!

Nor do Bachmanns Bullied coaches.

[robmcg]

...

 

On another positive note, I know this is only estimated, but Hattons is showing an estimated price for Bachmanns new H2 atlantic of only £89! An express tender engine (albeit a small one) for only £89!

 

A good point and a very reasonable price!

[The Stationmaster]

A good point and a very reasonable price!

Also a totally nonsensical 'come on' price. Comparison with other recent Bachmann locos - especially the 'Dukedog' suggests that the Atlantic will come in at c.£140-150 at 2013 prices.  Add in whatever inflationary impact there will be over the next two years and you can make of the price more or less whatever you want.  But just knock 15% of £140 and the initial lowest possible retail price will be over £100 - and Hattons have said they will not honour the £89 if the loco costs more.  In other words teh price is a complete work of fiction - and not very well thought out fiction at that.

[The Black Hat]

Just to add to my previous I forgot some of the Thompsons the L1 (other than dodgy bogies) and the O1 58are simply superb . RE Coaches the Gresley Suburbans are again 5* I still havent seen a Thompson version in the flesh due to the lack of modelshops (I live in NE London how sad is that) with their "strange" Teak finish other than that they look stunning too . The recent souhtern stock is superb too.

 

Bachmann dont do anything that comes close IMHO.

 

 

       Sorry their Locos and in general Coaches are miles ahead of Bachmann in the quality of the mouldings, painting and lining.

       Bachmann other than the most recent releases still rely on some very tired models.

       As a LNER modeller the only Bachmann LNER Models of real quality are the B1 (nowhere as good as the Hornby version) A2 poor/missing lining and wrong LNER Green and the K3 wrong LNER lining again.

      Dire are the A4 compared with superb Hornby version, V2 ,V1 and a passable J39 (poor chassis ) . All the Tenders for these Locos are miles behind in quality poor shape heavy mould lines etc.

     Where Hornby do lag behind are in wagons Bachmann have produced some excellent quality items for all companies.

     The best Hornby have managed are the GWR Horseboxes and the Trout wagons , sadly as mentioned above try finding any to buy !!

 

At the risk of some serious thread drift there your stats are really skewing the slant of how things stand in the overall market.

 

Your comparing Eastern region models from one company against the other, and that is just a part of what each company produces. Hornby still go for the big, green and named models where at all possible. The recent additions of engines like the O1 and L1 are welcome in the fact they are choosing other subjects, but by and large they remain as I described. The list is pretty big - Castles, West Countries, Halls, Stars, A4's, A3's Brits, Royal Scots, Duchesses, the Duke and P2... Bachmann on the other hand make models of the workhorses, the ones that you buy to back up all the shiney top link engines.

 

To say that Bachmanns A2 isnt as good as an A4 from Hornby isnt really fair either. Both have failings if you look or want to find them, everything from colour shade to screws and ease of access. Bachmann might have left their eastern engines to be the last ones to be retooled or looked at again for a chasis, but by and large they stand up ok. People still buy them so Bachmann are kwids in. Hornby meanwhile still sell that J83 or did until rcently, the J52 is no better, the B12 is another old one and the railroad range is a PR excuse for paying less for old tooling. If the market wants it then it works and for Hornby railroads launch with most of it former tooling is working as the sales are there. This has been augmented with some other releases, and it will be interesting to see in the future how the railroad and superdetailed releases for the same model stand up. Bachmann seem overall to fit into the gap between, priced centrally in the market, although for reasons already mentioned prices are rising generally.

 

Overall, I would say a lot more of Hornbys range is older. That J94 is former Dapol, the 156, 47, 37 are former Lima. Theres others you could mention... Bachmann did have some older things but I beleive their range to be newer over all. Like others, Bachmann I think is well respected for delivering subjects you want to enthuse about, priced well and models that capture the right feel. This is true for diesels as much as steam. Bachmann are also leading out into new areas, with realistic engines into EMU's, electrics, MPVS and Hornby are following their lead. Even with diesels Bachmann choose the ones people need more of. Like the 47, 66 and 37.

 

Bachmann have made more and made a wider range compared to Hornby leading on expresses type engines traditionally. Recently, the retool of the A4, A3 with others like the B1, B17 and O1 give you a nice new Eastern region pool, but only if you model south of Doncaster. Im sure Bachmanns attention will again turn eastern as they currently have satisfied the needs of the Midland and both of them serve the Western and Southern. There are plenty of workhorses the Eastern region modellers still need, but most of those remaining are for frieght. The K1 and B16 would be good for Hornbys stable, but given the move to pre-grouping releases I personally turn to Bachmann rather than Hornbys track record to want them to annouce in march they have finally arrived in the north east.

[Ozexpatriate]

And come on, who's not even a tad surprised that a weathered pannier will set you back LESS than alot of railroad models

Not a comparably small locomotive.

 

14xx £69.99

J94 £69.99

 

(and these are not Railroad)

 

We could go back and forth on prices all day and even for a specific locomotive (like a Peppercorn A1) varies considerably between manufacturers and within Hornby. (The Bachmann one is the most expensive.) 

 

The bottom line is that overall, both manufacturers locomotive models are comparably and competitively priced. Having said that, there are individual variations.

[robmcg]

Thankyou for reminding me Stationmaster that the Hattons price is only an estimate, where a few years ago they were generally honoured.

 

As to the Hornby and Bachmann quality debate, yes Ozexpatriate there are variations within both ranges, I am very pleased by the better models of both, and the pipework around the cabs of some Bachmann Standard Class steam engines is truly excellent, as are many Hornby models.

 

Mass production to this standard is a great pleasure to see, display, maybe improve/modify, and I continue to wonder how such quality can remain at under £100 for what is essentially short-run production.  For example, here are two BR Standard Bachmann models, UK weathered, which are around £90 on Ebay, or were a few days ago. 

 

I imagine the labour involved in this sort of thing can be expensive. The standard of realism is astonishing to my eye.

 

 

could you imagine assembling the above from a kit, boxing it so it arrives undamaged anywhere, and manufacturing every part too? for under £100?

 

 

 

Hornby do just as well... but this cost a little more just last week;

 

 

all photos adapted from linesideandlocos ads (no connection)

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks for the timely reminder,Rob.We have been presented with 'an embarrassment of riches' over the last decade.We now are coping with 'withdrawal symptoms',I fear.The only cure is 'more of the same'

 

Talking of your 'big,green and powerful loco'....and mindful of your lovely Settle and Carlisle images,we are taking a trip next month over the line.....behind 46233,Hellifield -Carlisle in each direction (diesel-47 Alfreton-Hellifield).Lots of video streamed via You-Tube of her,if you can get it.,the most recent being a couple of weeks ago,when she headed a '75th Anniversary' 1Z75,Crewe-Perth and return.There's a stunner of her alongside A4 60009  at Carlisle.Just type Duchess of Sutherland.Plenty of other stuff around of the S&C and current steam over Shap...and elsewhere. Cheers,Ian.

[Dunsignalling]

Sorry their Locos and in general Coaches are miles ahead of Bachmann in the quality of the mouldings, painting and lining.

Bachmann other than the most recent releases still rely on some very tired models.

As a LNER modeller the only Bachmann LNER Models of real quality are the B1 (nowhere as good as the Hornby version) A2 poor/missing lining and wrong LNER Green and the K3 wrong LNER lining again.

Dire are the A4 compared with superb Hornby version, V2 ,V1 and a passable J39 (poor chassis ) . All the Tenders for these Locos are miles behind in quality poor shape heavy mould lines etc.

Where Hornby do lag behind are in wagons Bachmann have produced some excellent quality items for all companies.

The best Hornby have managed are the GWR Horseboxes and the Trout wagons , sadly as mentioned above try finding any to buy !!

Hornby, at their best, are very good indeed but Bachmann's recent locos (4F etc) have caught up. Most of Bachmann's larger locos are pretty long-in-the-tooth, (excellent new chassis under several LNER locos notwithstanding) so they don't compare well in what is Hornby's priority sector.

 

Bachmann produce a better-balanced selection of locos, especially types that typical layouts need more than one of. Hornby have been improving in this area though I suspect they will always have a bias towards "big, green and named".

 

Where Bachmann really score is in getting the balance between detail and usability; there is a bit less, but what there is, stays put. Hornby locos have more to begin with but tend to lose some of it when they are put to work.

 

Hornby frankly wipe the floor with the competition where coaches are concerned with even Bachmann's Mk.1s starting to look a bit dated alongside Hornby's recent offerings (Maunsell/Hawksworth/Gresley non-corridor stock). However, the BR Horsebox Bachmann have produced for TMC is as good as anything Hornby have done and probably has the edge on Hornby's GWR equivalent. I'm hoping the forthcoming LMR and ex-SECR coaches come up to the same standard.

 

Hornby have shown us how good their freight stock can be (the Shark and Trout in particular) if they are bothered - but they generally aren't! There have been a few air-braked engineers wagons which retailers can barely give away once the (relatively small) target audience have had their fill. The best of the rest is derived from ex-Airfix tooling dating back thirty-odd years.

 

Until two or three years ago, I reckon I spent the best part of £1000 a year on Hornby products; more recently it has been no more than £300, almost all of it on coaches. When Bachmann's new models arrive, they will take up some of the slack, but by no means all of it.

 

Locomotive-wise, Hornby have lately put most of their eggs in the LNER basket and the rest in the GWR one. In modelling terms, I have virtually no interest in the former and only a limited one in the latter.

 

However, we Southern/S&D fans have done OK in the past and I have enough Black 5s, West Countries, King Arthurs, Schools, T9s and M7s (also 3,4,and 7Fs plus BR Standards from Bachmann) to keep me amused until the current phase passes!

 

John

[micklner]

At the risk of some serious thread drift there your stats are really skewing the slant of how things stand in the overall market.

 

Your comparing Eastern region models from one company against the other, and that is just a part of what each company produces. Hornby still go for the big, green and named models where at all possible. The recent additions of engines like the O1 and L1 are welcome in the fact they are choosing other subjects, but by and large they remain as I described. The list is pretty big - Castles, West Countries, Halls, Stars, A4's, A3's Brits, Royal Scots, Duchesses, the Duke and P2... Bachmann on the other hand make models of the workhorses, the ones that you buy to back up all the shiney top link engines.

 

To say that Bachmanns A2 isnt as good as an A4 from Hornby isnt really fair either. Both have failings if you look or want to find them, everything from colour shade to screws and ease of access. Bachmann might have left their eastern engines to be the last ones to be retooled or looked at again for a chasis, but by and large they stand up ok. People still buy them so Bachmann are kwids in. Hornby meanwhile still sell that J83 or did until rcently, the J52 is no better, the B12 is another old one and the railroad range is a PR excuse for paying less for old tooling. If the market wants it then it works and for Hornby railroads launch with most of it former tooling is working as the sales are there. This has been augmented with some other releases, and it will be interesting to see in the future how the railroad and superdetailed releases for the same model stand up. Bachmann seem overall to fit into the gap between, priced centrally in the market, although for reasons already mentioned prices are rising generally.

 

Overall, I would say a lot more of Hornbys range is older. That J94 is former Dapol, the 156, 47, 37 are former Lima. Theres others you could mention... Bachmann did have some older things but I beleive their range to be newer over all. Like others, Bachmann I think is well respected for delivering subjects you want to enthuse about, priced well and models that capture the right feel. This is true for diesels as much as steam. Bachmann are also leading out into new areas, with realistic engines into EMU's, electrics, MPVS and Hornby are following their lead. Even with diesels Bachmann choose the ones people need more of. Like the 47, 66 and 37.

 

Bachmann have made more and made a wider range compared to Hornby leading on expresses type engines traditionally. Recently, the retool of the A4, A3 with others like the B1, B17 and O1 give you a nice new Eastern region pool, but only if you model south of Doncaster. Im sure Bachmanns attention will again turn eastern as they currently have satisfied the needs of the Midland and both of them serve the Western and Southern. There are plenty of workhorses the Eastern region modellers still need, but most of those remaining are for frieght. The K1 and B16 would be good for Hornbys stable, but given the move to pre-grouping releases I personally turn to Bachmann rather than Hornbys track record to want them to annouce in march they have finally arrived in the north east.

Some good points however !!

 

The Bachmann A2 is nowhere near as good as the A3 and A4 which date from 2005  IMHO for the following reasons

 

Heavy mouldings lacking finesse

 

Loco

Boiler has prominent seam on the sides very visible no idea why they are there,  tooling ?

Very thick valve gear Hornby is probably too fine

Poor assembly of cab to chassis area all suffer is sagging bottoms

Fixed ventilators on cab roof

Lack of detail in cab area, poor shaped seats

Due to still using flanged wheel on the Cartazzi truck the frames are very poor too shallow . The Hornby flangeless design is not perfect but it works !! My a2 are fairly constant derailers even on gentle"ish" curves

LNER Driving wheels painted different colour from the Body .

 

Tender

Still putting Brakes hard against the frames which they are still doing instead of a seperate moulding

 

In general

 

Golfball handrail knobs still being used and they are still fitting overscle Black handrails to all their Locos .

 

Wrong colour in BR and LNER , BR is very bright, LNER is Darlington green not Doncaster

LNER Lining is very overscale Hornby is superb in comparison they even missed the bottom line on the LNER version of the Tender and forgot to paint the top of BR tender Black.

 

After all that I still have  A2's and two of which are now A2/2 and A2/3 examples and am very grateful they have been made !!

 

 

As to useage the O1 A3 and A4 were all used in the NE region

 

As said before my post relate to LNER era as no interest in other areas.

[Dunsignalling]

Thankyou for reminding me Stationmaster that the Hattons price is only an estimate, where a few years ago they were generally honoured.

 

As to the Hornby and Bachmann quality debate, yes Ozexpatriate there are variations within both ranges, I am very pleased by the better models of both, and the pipework around the cabs of some Bachmann Standard Class steam engines is truly excellent, as are many Hornby models.

 

Mass production to this standard is a great pleasure to see, display, maybe improve/modify, and I continue to wonder how such quality can remain at under £100 for what is essentially short-run production.  For example, here are two BR Standard Bachmann models, UK weathered, which are around £90 on Ebay, or were a few days ago. 

 

I imagine the labour involved in this sort of thing can be expensive. The standard of realism is astonishing to my eye.

 

Ivatt_4MT_1abc_r800.jpg

 

could you imagine assembling the above from a kit, boxing it so it arrives undamaged anywhere, and manufacturing every part too? for under £100?

 

Standard_4MT_2-6-0_1a.jpg

 

Ivatt_4MT_3a_r800.jpg

 

Hornby do just as well... but this cost a little more just last week;

 

0_WC_2ab_r800.jpg

 

all photos adapted from linesideandlocos ads (no connection)

It evidently pays to buy locos when they are current.

 

I paid £54 each for the moguls and £95 for my 'Plymouth' when new! 

 

John