winterbournecm Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I have been tipped off that both Radio Cornwall and local MP Andrew George have been appraised about the rail / road swap and questions are being asked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 ... Arguably cheaper to rail to PZ and road-haul the last 5 miles or so.....5 Miles, doubt if any of them are more than a mile from the Railway Yard Gates to the delivery bays, Morrisons is definatly within a 1/3 of a mile. Trouble is we are then back to double handling etc., and the labour/machinery to transfer the goods between road/rail/road. Of course it would be nice if we still had Goods Facilities etc., but (most of) the infrastructure has been removed. Mind you, road transport hasn't taken over completly, or at least I haven't been able to tick off any Eddy Stobart lorry names in my wife's spotter book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 5 Miles, doubt if any of them are more than a mile from the Railway Yard Gates to the delivery bays Think he was referring to one in Hayle with that comment...either way, looking at sateillite pics, you're limited in places where there's space to put a mini intermodal terminal - either the West end of Long Rock depot (where the two old TEA are) - or more likely Marizion. Putting it "in the town" would mean losing the majority of the station car park and/or bus station/coach park, which i'd doubt the town as a whole would regard as a good trade-off. Trouble is we are then back to double handling etc., and the labour/machinery to transfer the goods between road/rail/road. Of course it would be nice if we still had Goods Facilities etc., but the infrastructure has been removed. And in any case, would be even more handling than an intermodal solution? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 So in the end we are left with a number of useless tankers! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 27, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2013 So in the end we are left with a number of useless tankers! XF Or looking at it another way the owners are left with a fleet of tankcars that are a fully written down asset they don't need to refurbish or replace at the moment. As the economics of the business change they might or might not go back to rail but with the oil companies it is always a fine knife edge on transport costs as they can significantly affect their bottom line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2013 5 Miles, doubt if any of them are more than a mile from the Railway Yard Gates to the delivery bays, Morrisons is definatly within a 1/3 of a mile. Trouble is we are then back to double handling etc., and the labour/machinery to transfer the goods between road/rail/road. Of course it would be nice if we still had Goods Facilities etc., but (most of) the infrastructure has been removed. Mind you, road transport hasn't taken over completly, or at least I haven't been able to tick off any Eddy Stobart lorry names in my wife's spotter book. Road transport costs at either end for an intermodal operation are pretty crucial, but at the same time any investment - at whatever level - in any kind of rail freight terminal - needs to be justified by the widest possible customer base. Ideally, given the distance that some freight items would have to travel, somewhere like Truro would be suitable as a location for a local 'hub' (of course, Drump Lane would have been even better, had it been retained....!) With regards to the 'infrastructure having been removed', one thing that has been brought home to be very clearly over the last few years is that the 'Victorian era' freight handling facilities (aka 'traditional goods yards') are seldom capable these days of handling the size of trains that modern economics dictate are run. Thus it becomes almost inevitable that some level of investment is required, in order to put a new freight traffic flow onto rail these days, however modest this may appear at first sight. If you want a good example of the modern equivilent of 'cheap and cheerful', look no further than Bristol West Depot, which was a former goods yard, latterly in BR days a freightliner terminal, then closed and used as a car park. Although it is now reopened as a container terminal by Freightliner HeavyHaul, quite a bit of investment in terms of refurbishment/relaying of track and provision of container handling plant (eg. reach-stacker) was required... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 To be even marginally justifiable on purely economic grounds, a train would have to be composed of at least ten twin-sets; i.e. a capacity of 20 45' boxes. As most stores would probably handle three to four of these a day (one fresh and frozen, the others ambient and non-food), that would mean any train would need to serve between five to seven medium-large stores, or a much larger number of convenience stores. These would have to be for one company only, as I doubt that (for example) Tesco and Sainsbury would want to be seen to be collaborating to share a train, unless there was a large amount of 'greenwash' involved. Given this, the best one might hope for is a trunk service from Daventry to Plymouth, with onward distribution by road- I recollect reading that, depending on the success of the Daventry- Wentloog service, Tesco were looking at something of this nature. It wouldn't be a Daventry- store service, though, but one from Daventry to secondary distribution depot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 So in the end we are left with a number of useless tankers! No, "we" aren't left with useless tankers, as the tanks are not, and have never been "ours"! They will either be owned by Esso, (or, possibly, although I think less likely, if Esso has made a sale and leaseback deal at some point they may be owned by some anonymous leasing company or bank) - I think the build date for at least some of the fleet is 1964, so they are just shy of 50 years old, that's a pretty decent innings for any rail vehicle, retiring them is hardly making the assets useless! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2013 To be even marginally justifiable on purely economic grounds, a train would have to be composed of at least ten twin-sets; i.e. a capacity of 20 45' boxes. As most stores would probably handle three to four of these a day (one fresh and frozen, the others ambient and non-food), that would mean any train would need to serve between five to seven medium-large stores, or a much larger number of convenience stores. These would have to be for one company only, as I doubt that (for example) Tesco and Sainsbury would want to be seen to be collaborating to share a train, unless there was a large amount of 'greenwash' involved. Given this, the best one might hope for is a trunk service from Daventry to Plymouth, with onward distribution by road- I recollect reading that, depending on the success of the Daventry- Wentloog service, Tesco were looking at something of this nature. It wouldn't be a Daventry- store service, though, but one from Daventry to secondary distribution depot. There may be more cooperation than is realised... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Some of those would be smaller "metro" ones though, they would not get multiple deliveries per day (and some may even need deliveries in a specialist vehicle) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2013 There is bout 9 "superstores" in mid and west Cornwall and the one at Carn Brea is huge! Im not saying it would happen, I was just thinking that if one needs about 7 decent size stores to warrant a train load then it could be viable You need more than just 7 stores, Mickey, so cooperation between retailers is a factor to consider. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2013 Co-operation between retailers who are geared to cut-throat competition and would probably save fractions of a penny on an item if they could might well extend to sharing trainloads if they felt that by not doing so they could lose their competitive edge. Then there's the possibility of a back-haul with Cornish goods going up country rather than empty wagons / containers. Fresh food might need chilled containers just as our fish, flowers and vegetables do to get to the London markets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Each store that receives mutiple deliveries will likely be getting them from different distribution centres as well. The Tescos I work in at Weston gets 2 fresh deliveries from Avonmouth a day, and, I think, 2 grocery/non food deliveries from Magor (Severn Tunnel), I assume Avonmouth and Magor distribution centres also cover Cornwall? cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Each store that receives mutiple deliveries will likely be getting them from different distribution centres as well. The Tescos I work in at Weston gets 2 fresh deliveries from Avonmouth a day, and, I think, 2 grocery/non food deliveries from Magor (Severn Tunnel), I assume Avonmouth and Magor distribution centres also cover Cornwall? cheers Out of interest, are the fresh and ambient/non-food deliveries dealt with by different companies? The whole business of supplying the big supermarkets is a very volatile one; contracts for the logistics set-ups change frequently, meaning not just a change of haulier but of warehousing/distribution centres as well. Whilst the concentration of primary hubs around Daventry is possibly immune from short-term change (it is the dead centre of England, or at least has seemed to be when I've visited..), the secondary, regional, hubs do seem to change quite frequently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Absolutely true Brian - rail hasn't had much of a chance in this sort of market (and still hasn't) for many years - the bulk simply isn't there for all destinations and neither is the convenience. there is no way rail can beat door-to-door road transits on convenience and probably not on price. And equally except on very specialised trainload flows, rail simply can't get into the 'just-in-time' market area for stuff which has a wide range of originating places and destinations, and a lot of supermarket produce moves on a 'just-in-time' basis because that best serves what we, the end customers demand as 'fresh food'. Agreed - and even when potentially it does, what happens - one only has to look at the recent distribution development at Bridgewater for Morrisons' - to say it's huge is an understatement and the Bristol - Taunton line runs right beside it for it's entire length and yet no rail connection - not even a prospective one that is the left to go rusty like at Didcot's distribution centre or South Marston at Swindon. In reality, IMHO rail doesn't figure in the mind-set of those designing such places. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Out of interest, are the fresh and ambient/non-food deliveries dealt with by different companies? The whole business of supplying the big supermarkets is a very volatile one; contracts for the logistics set-ups change frequently, meaning not just a change of haulier but of warehousing/distribution centres as well. Whilst the concentration of primary hubs around Daventry is possibly immune from short-term change (it is the dead centre of England, or at least has seemed to be when I've visited..), the secondary, regional, hubs do seem to change quite frequently. The tractor units and trailers from both centres are all lettered for Tescos (if Tescos actually owns them I would not know). The drivers are Tesco employees, we do often get agency drivers though as there seems to be a driver shortage, and very occasionally a hired in tractor unit turns up as well. I can remember when working at Westbury in 1991 that the Tesco distribution centre for the south west was located there, but around that time it closed and all the work transferred to a new fresh distribution centre at Chepstow. Chepstow itself was replaced by Avonmouth a couple of years ago, and it is now the set for the TV series Atlantis I believe! cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Agreed - and even when potentially it does, what happens - one only has to look at the recent distribution development at Bridgewater for Morrisons' - to say it's huge is an understatement and the Bristol - Taunton line runs right beside it for it's entire length and yet no rail connection - not even a prospective one... If they wanted an intermodal terminal it doesn't have to be right there on-site to make it work, the nature of it is that even if the terminal is right there on site you still need to tranship the box to a chassis and move it to a dock at the warehouse, if it was (say) half a mile away from the warehouse it doesn't make that much practical difference. Plenty of existing terminals work on providing rail facilities to an entire industrial area rather than just one private siding for one specific customer, and at least the local area isn't short of large area's of flat land with the capability of connecting to good nearby road and rail links! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2013 If they wanted an intermodal terminal it doesn't have to be right there on-site to make it work, the nature of it is that even if the terminal is right there on site you still need to tranship the box to a chassis and move it to a dock at the warehouse, if it was (say) half a mile away from the warehouse it doesn't make that much practical difference. Plenty of existing terminals work on providing rail facilities to an entire industrial area rather than just one private siding for one specific customer, and at least the local area isn't short of large area's of flat land with the capability of connecting to good nearby road and rail links! It was indeed very regrettable that Morrisons never even thought to approach the rail industry about a rail connection at Bridgwater. I assume Avonmouth and Magor distribution centres also cover Cornwall? Correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Remember not long back the story of a certain pastie company in Cornwall who sent their products to Tesco dist. centre at Bristol only for them to send them back for sale in their store........NEXT DOOR to the factory they were made in ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2013 Remember not long back the story of a certain pastie company in Cornwall who sent their products to Tesco dist. centre at Bristol only for them to send them back for sale in their store........NEXT DOOR to the factory they were made in ! Rubbish, isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 You mean they can actually sell those to folk in Cornwall, I thought they were just inflicted on the rest of the world? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Rubbish, isn't it? Unfortunately all too common; I suspect the same applies to the fruit from a farm on the other side of Canterbury which supplies Sainsburys with strawberries, apples etc. They'll be shipped to whatever distribution depot is currently in vogue, probably at least 50 miles away, rather than being delivered direct to the local branches. I suspect the local branches are incapable of accepting direct deliveries, and don't have the organisation to deal with them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gary H Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2013 You mean they can actually sell those to folk in Cornwall, I thought they were just inflicted on the rest of the world? Hmm, you have to use the term "pastie" very loosely in that respect Martyn, Im sure you'll agree! The term 'emergency food' hardly covers it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Gingsters can do one. I used to work for wetherspoons and tge shredded bbq pork was made on an industrial estate in truro. Then got shipped to daventry. Then got shipped back to truro to the pub. Crazyness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted October 30, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2013 Such lunacy in distribution is common. I distribute books for a society that I'm involved in. They each weigh 2.2Kg so have to go via a carrier. if someone walks into Waterstones in Leeds and orders one. I get the order via a wholesaler in Eastbourne. I send it there and they send it back to Waterstones in Leeds 4 miles from my house. The bookshop is not allowed to buy locally but if they did they would make a nice little mark up on the book but that's modern business. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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