DCC Sound Videos

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

All speakers will sound tinny if they are not properly installed. Circular ESU speakers come with an enclosure which requires sealing to ensure good performance. I use Blu tac others use other mastic.

 

The reason the base reflex performs better in these cases is that it is pre-sealed .

 

There is no discernible difference between a bass reflex and a properly installed 23mm ESU speaker. Just as much emphasis should be put on the siting of the speaker and the exit route for the produced sound. Metal baffles and cones are efficacious.

 

Using two speakers on a chip will likely overheat it and will certainly invalidate the warranty although ESU will tolerate down to 50 ohms impedance.

 

For those of you who are determined to fit two speakers, you might do better with some really high quality 32 ohm speakers which, in 23mm guise, are available in Europe.

 

Two 32 ohm speakers in series will give a 64 ohm load.

Frankly, for home layout use, a single well installed speaker is perfectly adequate.

 

There have been a number of threads about undue volume on sound locos at exhibitions. I think that exhibition sound locos should have a couple of loud function operated party pieces and the rest not so loud.

[Guest CPRAIL3000]

Here is a tsunami fitted SD60m with a 53x18 bass reflex speaker supplied from dcc supplies. I got to say this speaker really throws the sound out and seems to suit the GM sound well.

[tractor_37260]

The 23mm speakers are not low end/bass capable speakers and in my opinion, tend to sound 'tinny' on their own.

 

I suspect that the reason 'people still prefer the 2 x 23 over base' is because they haven't recognised the purpose of the bass. It isn't meant to be used on its own because it only handles the lower end sounds. It should be used with a secondary speaker such as the 23mm so that the two different speakers handle different frequencies at different ends of the range. A bass definitely does sound 'dumbed down' on its own, but supplemented with a 23mm, sounds _really_ good.

 

I have fitted both a DCC Supplies Bass-reflex and 20x40 or 23mm to my diesels and the results are far superior to just a pair of 23mm speakers. It became very apparent to me that the bass renders sounds which were not even audible with 23mm's on their own (various 'hums', motors and fans etc) - because they are not designed for those frequencies.

 

This is why hi-fi systems use multiple different speaker sizes. We should do the same.

 

Hi Scott

Aha - someone who thinks along the same lines as myself - re the "horses for courses" hence as in Hi Fi the best sounding speaker units always use different speakers to reproduce different parts of the frequency range. The space/room size etc, and also how it's furnished/or not will also change the perceived sound. What sounds good in a small bedroom may be lost at a show - because of the sheer area size and ambient noise - hence I would agree with piemanlarger on his choice of 2 x 23ml in the tanks as being better for big areas/shows etc - his video's (at a clubroom ?) easily confirms this. But in a normal sized house room, I find with a 37 the combination of Bass enhanced speaker under the grille + a 23ml in the tanks gives a very acceptable "noise" With the bass enhanced fitted, you can hear the "beating" of the exhaust on idle, which is just not audible (at least to my hearing) using 1 or 2 - 23ml speakers. The "thrash" sounds more convincing also

Good thread this one

Ken

[mike knowles]

I recently fitted sound to a Hornby Class 56. Initially it was installed with just the standard 23mm round speaker and did not impress much. Changing to a base reflex speaker produced a significant improvement, but then adding back the 23mm round speaker wired in parallel (with volume reduced accordingly) mounted in a home made sound box ala Pete Harvey really transformed it. The horns in particular really coming on song.

Whilst I too am really impressed with the SWD Mk4 Class 37 chip with 2x23mm speakers in the fual tanks I may now try a combination of 23mm and base reflex together.

As other posters have said Hi Fi installations use speakers of differing sizes to cover all the required frequency ranges so although we aren't up to Hi Fi standard sounds in our locos I think it is still worth some experimentation.

I echo the view that this is a good thread.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

As other posters have said Hi Fi installations use speakers of differing sizes to cover all the required frequency ranges so although we aren't up to Hi Fi standard sounds in our locos I think it is still worth some experimentation.

I echo the view that this is a good thread.

 

Be aware that we are light years behind even the most basic hi fi speaker installation and will never really catch up although we might. Currently we are saddled with small coil speakers because they are dirt cheap to produce. Surface reaction speakers as used in mobile phones (and I believe CT SL74's) are much better but are hugely expensive and probably need a different drive chip or circuit which would increase the sound chip size.

 

At this size and sound quality, forget bass and tweeter installations. There is not the depth of sound in the sound recording to justify really good speakers and remember that even average mobile phone speakers don't play music that well or that loud until you put it to your ear. Instant sound chamber!!

 

Concentrate very carefully on the speaker enclosure and the overall siting of the speaker and its sound path to get best results.

 

HiFi is usually at 44KHz 24bit stereo. Sound chips operate at 11KHz 8 bit mono. There are some that are better than this and at least one using MP3 but, for the purposes of this thread, 11KHz and 8 bit are what you are working with.

 

If you take a 44KHz 24 bit stereo perfectly good sound of a loco and downgrade it to chip quality it will sound terrible (sometimes).

 

Until you have control of the sounds used and any other factors involving your chosen prototype, speakers are the least of your problems unless they are poorly installed.

 

Not one of you has even touched on the subject of comparative frequency handling for any individual speaker.

 

This is a complex subject and, as I have said many times before, sound is a subjective experience. Don't blame the speaker too soon. Neither is it helpful to suggest that installing multiple speakers will solve the problem if it then promptly introduces another and doesn't solve the original problem.

[cassey jones]

Be aware that we are light years behind even the most basic hi fi speaker installation and will never really catch up although we might. Currently we are saddled with small coil speakers because they are dirt cheap to produce. Surface reaction speakers as used in mobile phones (and I believe CT SL74's) are much better but are hugely expensive and probably need a different drive chip or circuit which would increase the sound chip size.

 

At this size and sound quality, forget bass and tweeter installations. There is not the depth of sound in the sound recording to justify really good speakers and remember that even average mobile phone speakers don't play music that well or that loud until you put it to your ear. Instant sound chamber!!

 

Concentrate very carefully on the speaker enclosure and the overall siting of the speaker and its sound path to get best results.

 

HiFi is usually at 44KHz 24bit stereo. Sound chips operate at 11KHz 8 bit mono. There are some that are better than this and at least one using MP3 but, for the purposes of this thread, 11KHz and 8 bit are what you are working with.

 

If you take a 44KHz 24 bit stereo perfectly good sound of a loco and downgrade it to chip quality it will sound terrible (sometimes).

 

Until you have control of the sounds used and any other factors involving your chosen prototype, speakers are the least of your problems unless they are poorly installed.

 

Not one of you has even touched on the subject of comparative frequency handling for any individual speaker.

 

This is a complex subject and, as I have said many times before, sound is a subjective experience. Don't blame the speaker too soon. Neither is it helpful to suggest that installing multiple speakers will solve the problem if it then promptly introduces another and doesn't solve the original problem.

The laws of physics dictates that a larger coned speaker will always sound better than a small cone speaker, a long as it is wired correctly.

This is why modellers are finding that fitting of a refex bass speaker makes an improvement over the standard 23 mm round that comes fitted to ESU chips.

[Piemanlarger]

The laws of physics dictates that a larger coned speaker will always sound better than a small cone speaker, a long as it is wired correctly.

This is why modellers are finding that fitting of a refex bass speaker makes an improvement over the standard 23 mm round that comes fitted to ESU chips.

 

 

I think your statement was querried on old rmweb when someone else said something simlar. I think someone with some sound experience said round speakers were indeed very good at what they do?

 

I dont follow laws, but do follow my years.

 

Class 66 & 67 are other projects together with the 37 that to me do not benifit sound wise from bass speakers over standard esu speakers.

[cassey jones]

Pieman,

 

A large quality speaker will always output more, low frequencies than a small quality one - its not science but fact.

 

Now whether you appreciate the sound thats another matter.

[Piemanlarger]

Pieman,

 

A large quality speaker will always output more, low frequencies than a small quality one - its not science but fact.

 

Now whether you appreciate the sound thats another matter.

 

 

I was not personally doughting your claims, just mentioning the subject had been covered previously i believe.

 

well, as is said many times, sound is subjective but i am not the only one to come to my preferences about the bass reflex not always being the best option.

Hopefully, others are picking up tips and will find what suits them best too for thier sound projects.

[cassey jones]

I was not personally doughting your claims, just mentioning the subject had been covered previously i believe.

 

well, as is said many times, sound is subjective but i am not the only one to come to my preferences about the bass reflex not always being the best option.

Hopefully, others are picking up tips and will find what suits them best too for thier sound projects.

 

This is one of the reasons of being on these forums,we can debate the merits of whatever,- I totally agree regarding sound being subjective.

I like most on here like to alter things, perhaps try changing speaker set ups, CV values etc etc.

After all we are all trying to get the best from our layouts and long may it continue!

Nothing wrong in a good debate it gets people challangeing what the norm might be.

[Piemanlarger]

indeed, now we can progress onto howes are better than swd, home produced are better than howes and of course Hornby are the best

 

I must say i am now doughting / i have forgotton if i tried (cl 37) the standard Bachmann 20 x 40 under the fan with a bass reflex. I think it was bass enhanced with bass relex i tried?

 

Might, when time hopefuly allows over the xmas break look at set ups once more.

[NoggintheNog]

Pieman,

 

A large quality speaker will always output more, low frequencies than a small quality one - its not science but fact.

 

Now whether you appreciate the sound thats another matter.

 

What you say is totally correct, however, having better low frequency response does not always equate to a 'better' sound.

 

It depends on the sound project in question AND the available mounting points for the speaker.

 

The mounting point is important simply because the direction the sound has to travel to get to you can reduce any improvements to nothing if the smaller speaker can be fitted with a more direct sound path from inside the loco to out.

 

There is always a trade off between high bass/bass reflex and regular speakers regardless, usually in the upper mid to high frequency range where (aside from volume distortion which can be avoided easily) the smaller speakers will in all probability have a better response.

 

If the distinictive part of a given sound project is in that range, then the smaller speaker will infact sound better anyway, regardles of the loss of low fequency detail.

 

As an example, I have recently fitted sound to a US outline Gas Turbine loco, it came with 2 , one at each end, 1.25" speaker mounts built into the chassis, firing down to the track.

This was purpose built to fit QSI solutions speakers of that size, who are the only decoder manufacturer with suitable sound projects available. Those speakers are circular but 'high bass' , specifically tailored to give better low frequency response.

Unfortunatly I was dissapointed with that sound when finished, the Turbine whine is all quite high frequency, and with speakers tailored for the low end it just became white noise.

 

I now have two 1" normal speakers in place, and the sound is vastly improved.

 

It isnt always the case that better low end means better sound.

[SRman]

? If I can stick my oar in the water here, the whole point of my starting this topic was to allow people to post videos (or links to same) so that others could make up their own minds. There are merits to all of the above arguments / discussions but, ultimately, we need to hear the various sounds and combinations of speakers to make up our own minds - it is, as has been stated elsewhere, a VERY subjective area.

 

There are several possible spanners in the works too. One is the owner's operating environment; each of us has their own different environments that may vary from the posted videos and, therefore, alter the requirements for particular speaker and sound combinations.

 

Another variable which we don't have a great amount of control over is the rather necessary compression that has to take place to make the videos small enough to transmit via the Internet.

 

And yet another is that appreciation of the sounds comes down to very personal tastes.

 

Even so, most of the above discussions are helpful in explaining why some combinations work the way they do. My own experience with a Howes class 50 was that there was no discernible difference between using a large rectangular speaker plus a standard round one, and using a bass reflex plus standard round one. I took the bass reflex out after testing that and used it in a more deserving project - a Hornby class 60 which really did respond well to having the bass reflex installed in place of its factory-fitted large rectangular speaker. I must emphasise that the above judgements were my own personal opinions and don't make anyone else on here wrong in what they say.? 

[Scott Murray]

All speakers will sound tinny if they are not properly installed. Circular ESU speakers come with an enclosure which requires sealing to ensure good performance. I use Blu tac others use other mastic.

 

The reason the base reflex performs better in these cases is that it is pre-sealed .

 

There is no discernible difference between a bass reflex and a properly installed 23mm ESU speaker. Just as much emphasis should be put on the siting of the speaker and the exit route for the produced sound. Metal baffles and cones are efficacious.

 

Using two speakers on a chip will likely overheat it and will certainly invalidate the warranty although ESU will tolerate down to 50 ohms impedance.

 

For those of you who are determined to fit two speakers, you might do better with some really high quality 32 ohm speakers which, in 23mm guise, are available in Europe.

 

Two 32 ohm speakers in series will give a 64 ohm load.

Frankly, for home layout use, a single well installed speaker is perfectly adequate.

 

There have been a number of threads about undue volume on sound locos at exhibitions. I think that exhibition sound locos should have a couple of loud function operated party pieces and the rest not so loud.

 

Look, I think there are several factors at play here. Certainly, the installation of a speaker will affect the results depending on how it is positioned and whether it is sealed. I have no arguement with that.

 

However, where I strongly disagree is with the statement "There is no discernible difference between a bass reflex and a properly installed 23mm ESU speaker". This is most definitely not always true (it depends on specific prototypes) and this is where my comment of 'tinny' results comes in because I have heard the differences for myself.

 

As others have indicated, a larger speaker cone will always produce better results. It's simple fact. What I think is being misunderstood is that the bass-reflex and the 23mm are both designed to handle different frequency ranges - the bass, the lower frequencies and the 23mm, higher frequencies. On their own, a bass sounds 'flat/boomy' and the 23mm sounds 'tinny', however, when you put the two together, you get a cross section of frequencies and a result which sounds much better. Personally, I can't see the point of fitting two identical speakers. All this is going to do is give greater volume, but it isn't going to deliver the frequency range.

 

Having said that, it also depends on the sound recordings and the prototype being worked with.

 

For example, I have a Heljan 52 while I have fitted a bass reflex in the fuel tanks and and a 20x40mm inside in the roof. This particular type of loco has lots of low frequency/bass sounds which the 20x40mm cannot reproduce. Originally, I had two 23mm as well. They really didn't do the sound justice. The bass makes a huge difference.

 

I also put a 20x40mm in a Hornby 50 and think this is acceptable: a 50 doesn't have the low bass sounds which a 52 has and this is why the bass-reflex doesn't make much difference to a 50.

 

I also disagree strongly with your statement: "At this size and sound quality, forget bass and tweeter installations. There is not the depth of sound in the sound recording to justify really good speakers".

If this was true, why can I hear lots of humming and whiring bass-end sounds (motors, pumps etc) on the 52 with a bass-reflex wired, yet when I have a 23mm connected on its own, none of these sounds can be heard ? I would suggest that the sounds are present in the recording and that it is the speakers which determine whether they can be heard. Sealing a 23mm made very little difference.

 

So in summary, there are a number of parameters to getting best results. Yes, the technology has some way to go, however, there are a number of steps which we can take which will improve the present situation quite considerably. Simply throwing a LokSound and wiring one or two 23mm speakers to it (sealed or not, positioned correctly or not) isn't going to give the best results on its own.

 

Looking at Graham Plowman's videos and having played around with these locos myself, in my opinion, the Howes version is a lot better than the SWD version. The SWD has far too much inertia and the engine often idles at times when it should be revving. You can 'clag' the Howes far more reallistically than the SWD.

[big jim]

a few more videos uploaded to you tube

 

chase sequences again, this time classes 30, 33, 37, 47, 57, 60 and 86

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/fastlinegrid

[squeaky]

Here's an Atlas Dash 8-40CW in Santa Fe, it's fitted with a Soundtraxx Tsunami with one 30mm round speaker. Not sure if I chosen the right horn though

 

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

I have to 99% agree with DWhites4dcc statement.

 

There is no discernible difference between a bass reflex and a properly installed 23mm ESU speaker. Just as much emphasis should be put on the siting of the speaker and the exit route for the produced sound. Metal baffles and cones are efficacious.

 

A well sealed 23mm or 20x40mm ESU speaker in my opinion will do a better job. I take it one step further and use epoxies and have started building some of my housings out of composites such as carbon fibre. Pretend their is a poisonous gas in there, that's how well it needs to be sealed! Housing must also have 0 movement.

 

I tried the reflex speakers and I was not happy with them simple as that. It may be a different story with Diesel locos, I just dont know.

 

If I can stick my oar in the water here, the whole point of my starting this topic was to allow people to post videos (or links to same) so that others could make up their own minds. There are merits to all of the above arguments / discussions but, ultimately, we need to hear the various sounds and combinations of speakers to make up our own minds - it is, as has been stated elsewhere, a VERY subjective area.

 

Know how you feel.... certain members are very opinionated on this subject and seem to have some agenda to push. Maybe it is time we had a topic on speakers.

 

Merry Christmas to all.

 

Martin

[big jim]

gonna try and get some videos done over the weekend featuring some of HOWES new offerings, some of which have new features which bryan would like your opinions on before deciding whether to incorporate them into future chips

 

tornado: A few new features on this one, the sound is perminently on so once its on the track you hear it simmer away to itself, this is to enable the user to fully exploit one of the new features which is "sleeper creak and groan" basically you can run the loco with F1 ON which will give you the chuff noise, you can then turn off F1 to lose the chuff then press F9 to activate the "sleeper groan" as if you have shut off the regulator entering a yard and all that can be heard it the simmer and groan, trust me it sounds fantastic, the sleeper groan can be left latched so it loops or if pushed momenterily will give 9 secs of groan, of course F9 can still be used with F1 activated too, it sounds complicated but once the video is up you will see what i mean and all should become clear!!

 

tornado also features the safety valve blowing off on a function key as well as drain cocks, A1 whistle, chime whistle, guards whistle, doors slamming and more

 

 

Class 60: new revision featuring notching, bryan is not a fan of notching but admits that its a useful tool on the 60 as his own garden layout of peak forest has a section where he needs to propel wagons up a hill and the notch feature makes it more believable/controlable!!

 

he has also added the sleeper groans to the 60 too which sound really good under the loco sound

 

Class 66: this is one bryan has done for me, to my own specification as such, however some features may be carried over to the proper release depending on opinion.

 

as i have fitted it into a low emission 66 he has changed the start up claxon sound to the one off the real 66301 as the pitch is totally different to a non low emission version (trust me on that one!!)

 

the "sander" air whoosh sound is actually the sound of the "sonar speedo cleaner" has been set to only operate when the loco is in motion as per the real thing you can however operate it on a function button too

 

the buffer clash has been changed to one i recorded in derby last year with a 66/3, it actually gives more of a "ding" than a "clash" but it sounds right!!

 

bryan has added notching to the 66 too, if you push F5 and leave it latched it will go up through the notches right up to full thrash, if you push it momenterily (on then off) it will go up to notch 1, push it again (on/off) it will go up to 2 and so on, F6 does the same but notching down

 

the notching is a nice feature as anyone who has heard a 66 after start up may well notice that it tends to go into a "high idle" state while the compressors build up the various reservoirs so on the model you can start it up and go into "notch 1 high idle" then drop it back to idle, the real things do quite randomly go into high idle while moving

 

i've got rid of the coupling sounds off mine and bryan has added a random crow sound in its place!!

 

anyway thats the run down of what i've got, now to try and get them video'd

[SRman]

While I am quite happy with my 66 that I had Bryan reblow for me a while ago, the notching feature does sound interesting. I might have to send it in for another reblow! ? 

 

Bryan also mentioned to me some ideas he has for improving the class 73 (I have a beta test one - see my earlier vids), so that's another one to go back to him soon.

 

I have now installed a class 158 from Howes but have yet to take a video of it. Bryan did a special feature for me in adding another engine start on F10, thereby allowing me to mount it in a two or three car class 158 or 159. At the moment it's in two-car 158 but when I finally get the lighting sorted out for DCC on the 159 I intend swapping the installation into that. By way of explanation, while i am fiddling with the lighting circuits (and making mistakes!) I figured it's better to risk a cheaper non-sound decoder rather than blowing up a rather expensive LokSound decoder!

 

 

 

 

Keep the videos coming guys. I enjoy listening to (and seeing) others' work. Lots of variety is a very good thing! ? :icon_thumbsup2:

 

 

[MrB]

Hi Guys,

 

I haves some videos on youtube and some DCC and DCC sound fitting on fotopic.

I have added the links below.

 

http://www.youtube.com/tractorclag

 

http://www.galleryroy.fotopic.net/

 

Regards

 

Roy

[two tone green]

I think you have overdone the cant on the track with the 37's on

[MrB]

I think you have overdone the cant on the track with the 37's on

 

I know, not the best video i've taken, have a stand for it now, haha.

[two tone green]

Nice videos though, thanks.

[Pinkmouse]

Maybe it is time we had a topic on speakers.

 

As I think I mentioned on the old forum, I have a fully computerised speaker measurement package that I use for my other main hobby, building my own hi-fi equipment. If any member wants to send me a driver then I'm quite happy to measure it, suggest a suitable enclosure design, and post the results here for all to use.

[cassey jones]

Here's a few of my videos only taken using a vivitar digital camera though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7FmbhBZWCo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSyyw5avDDc

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50NTPP9Afic

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSsF_pbX1O0