A nail in the coffin for mainline steam?

[coachmann]

Look around. This is Britian. What do folk expect? 

[ozzyo]

A nail taken out of the coffin?

 

No mention of Bittern's run last week that I can find. Managed a max speed of 94mph !5 miles at a continuos 90mph and an average of 71mph start to stop Newcastle - York.

 

Puts things into perspective a bit.

 

Why do we always harp on about the negative in our hobby.

 

Mike

 

What is now the max. speed for some steam locos on the main line?

 

OzzyO.

[jwealleans]

I believe it's still 75mph. Bittern had special dispensation to exceed that on these two runs only.

[Bon Accord]

I believe it's still 75mph. Bittern had special dispensation to exceed that on these two runs only.

 

Temporary derogation for three runs, the latter two of which were delayed due to fire risk. That derogation has now expired, although I see from the latest issue of Steam Railway that the A1 people are now actively working on permanent derogation for 60163 to enable 90mph running on "high days and holidays".

I was on the York-Newcastle run and the learned timekeepers in my coach reckoned on a maximum of 95 mph with a start to stop of 72 and a bit. Apparently the fastest ever steam run from Newcastle to York.

[royaloak]

Quite amusing that the 'Code' for Poole is POO!

P

Barnstaple is BNP.

[jwealleans]

Apparently the fastest ever steam run from Newcastle to York.

The fireman was a friend of mine.  I shall congratulate him the next time we speak.

[Titan]

 

For those less familiar with steam (though the same applies to any form of traction) try loading a caravan to the limit of your towing capacity with a Range Rover and starting off uphill; not always easy is it?.  

 

With 4x4, a low range gearbox, and a big V8 up front and on later models traction control, and the heaviest fully loaded caravan just over half the maximum towing weight allowed for a Range Rover, starting off uphill is always easy for a Range Rover - to the point of being able to haul articulated lorries up ice covered hills - see here: (OK I know its a discovery, but if a discovery can do it a Range Rover will have no problem!)

 

 

But I do understand what you are getting at!  (And OK I am biased being quite a Range Rover fan, especially the classics - vroom vroom!)

[Nimbus]

A nail taken out of the coffin?

 

No mention of Bittern's run last week that I can find. Managed a max speed of 94mph !5 miles at a continuos 90mph and an average of 71mph start to stop Newcastle - York.

 

Puts things into perspective a bit.

 

I believe the northbound run was a disappointment as far as speed was concerned, but it was reported somewhere that, due to the high winds, it was the only long-distance working that dared venture north of York that day!

 

The Nim.

[Bon Accord]

I believe the northbound run was a disappointment as far as speed was concerned, but it was reported somewhere that, due to the high winds, it was the only long-distance working that dared venture north of York that day!

 

The Nim.

 

Correct. We departed about an hour late due to a signalling issue to the North of York station which delayed 4464 from leaving the NRM. Also correct, is that everything else was cancelled, and as time wore on we thought we going the same way, then much to everyone's amazement the garter blue snowplough hoved into view, coupled up and shortly thereafter off we went! We had a blanket 50mph restriction imposed and were the only train to head North over a period of a few hours. As we approached Newcastle and skies clear we were told that a decision would be made at 1400 as to speed restrictions for the soutbound run, whilst there was some disappointment the attitude of most seemed to be along the lines of a run behind an A4 on the ECML is good enough, even at 50 (maximum was 55mph). We arrived in Newcastle to some rather grey skies and a number of cancelled East Coast Mk4 sets lurking around the station.

There was some confusion at Newcastle as we awaited the inbound stock for the Southbound run, as the station board displayed platform 14 - the modern Newcastle Central only has 12 platforms!

Needless to say once aboard we were informed via tannoy that 90 was now on - to some cheer - and what a fantastic run it was! Upto 60 by Gateshead and shortly thereafter the permitted maximum of 75. Once past Ferryhill she didn't need much encouragement to stride into the 80s and upto 90 once in the permitted 90 section around Aycliffe. The southbound run was always going to be the better performance wise as it would be 90 all the way from Aycliffe to York, whereas the Northbound run had two shorter sections. Whilst a few 90+ speeds have been achieved in preservation (unofficially), they were all downhill dashes as opposed to sustained 90mph running on the level as was witnessed with Bittern.

A day to remember!

 

Hooked on and changing over lamps/headboards at York whilst we awaited departure. Note the cancelled Mk4 set behind.

 

Shortly after arrival at Newcastle Central with ominous grey skies and East Coast 225 sets whose trains had been cancelled in the background.

 

Departing Central towards Tyne yard (via the roundabout) for the charter rake to be serviced, 4464 then returned to Heaton for watering and turning.

 

Shortly after arrival in York after that memorable run. The crew were given a well deserved warm reception by passengers and onlookers - well done to all concerned. The Royal 67 in the background took the train forward to Bristol whilst 4464 returned to the NRM.

[The Stationmaster]

A nail taken out of the coffin?

 

No mention of Bittern's run last week that I can find. Managed a max speed of 94mph !5 miles at a continuos 90mph and an average of 71mph start to stop Newcastle - York.

 

Puts things into perspective a bit.

 

Why do we always harp on about the negative in our hobby.

 

Mike

 

Alas (or some might say 'realistically') the way it works isn't like that.  You can have plenty of 'good' steam runs - speed is irrelevant, punctuality is what matters - but one bad one, especially a very bad one and a pile of delay minutes a good chunk of the national debt high then questions will be asked.  

 

The questions that should be asked are was the job correctly planned (i.e achievable running times with that loco and load combination plus due allowance for likely conditions) and was the loco/stock/crew in the correct state to deliver what was planned, oh and can the orghanisers afford to pay the delay minutes if the worst should happen.  Provided all the answers are positive then it basically boils down to 'just another failed train' (although it's not good press) but if there are any negatives then something needs managerial action - and it might only need one negative amongst a sea of positives to lead to change.

 

Going back into history on one occasion I received a mighty r*ll*cking from a senior Ops Manager over the performance of a steam special which I had planned and which put a serious delay into a booked passenger train because of early running.  On that occasion the plan was right (it worked perfectly the rest of the time) but with an engine in top nick and a 'keen' crew plus a 'helpful' Inspector the engine had no problems in eating up the planned running times and in fact on one section (of rising gradient) it ran well inside normal HST running times.

 

 

 

 

Needless to say once aboard we were informed via tannoy that 90 was now on - to some cheer - and what a fantastic run it was! Upto 60 by Gateshead and shortly thereafter the permitted maximum of 75. Once past Ferryhill she didn't need much encouragement to stride into the 80s and upto 90 once in the permitted 90 section around Aycliffe. The southbound run was always going to be the better performance wise as it would be 90 all the way from 

 

I must say I'm very glad I wasn't on it if it was doing 60mph at Gateshead - what's the line speed across the bridges and round that junction nowadays (or have they made massive changes to teh track geometry on that curve?).

 

Incidentally there was a lot of very fast running out of Marylebone back in the early-mid '80s which was all kept very quiet - admittedly the long falling gradient down through Bicester helped but the speed was invariably sustained on the rising gradient beyond and mile after mile in the 80mph plus range was not at all unusual with certain engines (one of which I timed through Bicester at 85mph on one occasion).

[Bon Accord]

I must say I'm very glad I wasn't on it if it was doing 60mph at Gateshead - what's the line speed across the bridges and round that junction nowadays (or have they made massive changes to teh track geometry on that curve?).

 

Incidentally there was a lot of very fast running out of Marylebone back in the early-mid '80s which was all kept very quiet - admittedly the long falling gradient down through Bicester helped but the speed was invariably sustained on the rising gradient beyond and mile after mile in the 80mph plus range was not at all unusual with certain engines (one of which I timed through Bicester at 85mph on one occasion).

 

Mike,

I should have phrased it "once clear of Gateshead" as once clear of the restrictions around the bridge and down towards Low Fell the crew wasted no time - we had left Central a few minutes down as it was. It was a fantastic trip, epitomised by the near silence in my coach for much of the southbound run.

[Talltim]

The Royal 67 in the background took the train forward to Bristol whilst 4464 returned to the NRM.

That will explain the train I saw northbound through Chesterfield in the morning. I was a bit puzzled as to why it was carrying Royal Scot name boards when it only went as far as Newcastle tho?

[Bon Accord]

That will explain the train I saw northbound through Chesterfield in the morning. I was a bit puzzled as to why it was carrying Royal Scot name boards when it only went as far as Newcastle tho?

 

I do believe it's because the set itself is known as the 'Royal Scot' set.

[jonhall]

Mondays Steam Dreams tour to Winchester wasn't exactly full when I photographed it from the carpark at work during my lunchtime, dropping 2-3 coaches looked like it would only just be full and could probably have run with just once black 5 not two.

 

Jon

[PhilH]

We've been working on 4464 today after its recent adventures - happily nothing amiss apart from cleaning up some sand after a sand trap lid let go a bit.

 

It's what the thing was built for, and is probably in as good a condition now as at any time in its existence.

 

Edit sand not snad....

[roythebus]

Well done to all concerned on the Bittern trip. I'm not a particular fan of the A4's but that loco looked superb. It shows the best in preservation. Let's have more positive news please. there's enough doom and gloom out there. Pity it didn't make the national press.

[Gwiwer]

RAIB are now asking for help with their inquiry into the Tangmere matter.  

 

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/131123_winchfield.cfm

[Free At Last]

RAIB report published

[Gwiwer]

And for those in any way interested in such matters the read is in the RAIB's usual approachable and (so far as is possible) non-judgemental and non-technical style.  Whilst the loss of certain critical components may mean that the full circumstances are never known RAIB has made four recommendations and issued one learning point which could be applied to any steam locomotive operation although with particular reference to Bulleid Pacifics.

['CHARD]

And for those in any way interested in such matters the read is in the RAIB's usual approachable and (so far as is possible) non-judgemental and non-technical style.  Whilst the loss of certain critical components may mean that the full circumstances are never known RAIB has made four recommendations and issued one learning point which could be applied to any steam locomotive operation although with particular reference to Bulleid Pacifics.

 

I wholeheartedly agree, and the report is reassuringly un-sensational.  Far from being as the title of this thread suggests, this unfortunate incident should act as a positive learning episode that may help ensure many years' future enjoyment of main line steam.

[MarkC]

RAIB report published

Thanks for the link. That's a very interesting document. No doubt it will be discussed at length elsewhere.

[PhilH]

As a point of information in the report there are several references to the Southall base of West Coast Railways. It should be noted that there are two separate sites at Southall involved in main line steam operations, the WCRC site and one operated by Locomotive Services Limited, which company operates 4464, 34046, 70000 and 5029.

 

These companies are completely separate entities with different operating practices.

[PaulRhB]

It was good to see that although they identified a lack of audit on the competence of their inspector that all the paperwork was done regardless. Seems a sensible and plausible conclusion and the reason for the nut modification raised some interesting points about the association of thread size and type of nut. A simple change for a good reason but without fully understanding they needed a finer thread to go with it.

Certainly someone was smiling on Tangmere and her crew and though it caused spectacular sparking the third rail potentially save a far more serious event.

[PhilH]

One thing that should be understood about the gudgeon pin is that it shouldn't rely entirely on the nut and washer to retain it.

,

If fitted correctly and undamaged the taper fitting should provide enough grip to stop the thing falling out...a few weeks ago we had to employ a 50 ton jack to remove the pin from the middle engine of a West Country, and boy, did it go with a bang when it went.

[PaulRhB]

It doesn't mention a deficiency on the taper matching the hole but does identify slacking off to align the castellated nut so I guess they hadn't tightened it as much as in steam days and were relying on the nut more than was the original intention. Very interesting that so many tiny factors probably led to the failure.