A nail in the coffin for mainline steam?

[jamie92208]

I missed seeing this with being at Warley over the weekend so have just caught up.  It does sound as if things could have been a lot worse.  I was living at Settle in 1960 and walked into Settle a couple of hundred yards from the scene of the incident the next morning.  We couldn't see it because of the mist and fog. It occurred above a housing estate on the emmbankment.  Several of our friends from chepel were involved in tending to the injured and shocked passengers and the lcal mountain rescue unit was called out and was praised by the coroner for the very effective way they dealt with things in a difficult to access situation.

 

The failure there was certainly the slide bar and not the little end.  IIRC the report then highlighted other slide bar bolt failures and reccommended new maintenance procedures.  I hope that Tangmere will run again soon.  At least there are several other West Countries around and there may even be a pool of spares.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

This sort of incident was quite common in steam days. It would be dealt with rapidly and I doubt if a train was often 3 hours late as a result. Obviously different now with less expertise about and fewer staff on site all the time (and more elf an safety regs to deal with).

 

I think the likely outcome of this is that we will return to the situation of a few years ago when steam is confined to secondary routes (not electrified) and not on busy weekdays.

[Pete 75C]

How I dislike what the UK has become over the last decade or so! Nothing must ever go wrong and if it does OTT reactions which if publicised enough will be followed by potentially draconian restrictions/bans. Lawyers, insurance companies , acting like hungry vultures and jumping into the fray to get their mega pounds of flesh by with sky high charges and increased premiums.

 

I am not having go at the member that started this thread it is just so sad that this what our society has degenerated so much that we all understandably expect the worst now and unfortunately are often correct in our assumptions.

 

I hope that common sense prevails and this incident is seen as something that happens with a steam engine and maybe just a change to inspection routine etc, if required is the result.

 

Nigel

 

I totally agree. The trend for the media and 24hr news channels making a minor accident seem like a disaster where somebody has to be held accountable and then humiliated publicly is quite frankly pathetic.

I was quite happy with 3 TV channels and the little girl and the clown on the test card at night...

[t-b-g]

Things go wrong. Always have and always will.

 

If every time something went wrong, whatever caused it was banned, we would have no commercial flights, no trains, no cars, no ships, walking would be banned (you could go over on your ankle and get hurt), so would food (choking hazard), electricity, any form of heating and we might as well all give up and hide in a cave until we all died. Except that you can get rock falls in caves, so even that isn't foolproof.

 

Can't we just be thankful that this incident could have been a lot worse but wasn't. Find out what caused it and see what can be done to try to prevent it happening again and get on with life?

 

Tony

[petethemole]

Going back to the New Forest incident, the public announcements merely attributed the delay to "emergency engineering work". I asked the guard on my train what the problem was. As far as I'm aware there was no subsequent information released attributing the delay to a broken train.

 

Pete

[PaulRhB]

With reference to running steam in busy times they aren't proportionally worse for reliability than the service trains and as they pay they have just as much right to run as the units

In fact Tangmere is somewhat more reliable than certain units, I see some performance data and certain units regularly pop up for a period due to problems identifying the exact fault.

As an example a unit with a new gearbox had extensive testing off the mainline which went well, it was put into service and failed causing a lot of delay. There will only be backlash if its found to be a preventable issue that shouldn't have arisen and then the operator should bear the stigma not the steam movement. West Coast refused to operate Tornado for some time because it didn't have certificates from their approved suppliers so they couldn't meet their safety case without spending to certify another supplier. Spending that made it financially impossible to run at a reasonable profit so they didn't until the paperwork could be brought into line with their specific operation.

Hopefully another check can be added to the list once the report establishes what failed to minimise the risk of it happening again.

[The Stationmaster]

In essence I agree but I sense a slight turnaround in very recent years shying away from the ambulance-chasing American model of legal intervention.  The UK has - still has - a good reputation for fair play and common sense when compared with other nations.  It is the regulatory environment in which the railway operates which brings about the occasional threat and intervention.  The lawyers at SWT might be sharpening their pencils but need to remember that had the boot been on the other foot and one of their own trains sat down for three hours delaying a charter then who would be paying whom?

 

Under the Access Agreements there is no need at all for anybody's lawyers to be involved - the arrangements are perfectly straightforward albeit with some latitude allowed for steam hauled excursions; it is simply a matter of totting up the delay minutes and turning them into money.  Of cpourse teh loco owners might subsequently seek to recover costs if it is found someone supplied them with faulty material but that is a different matter.

 

 

 

With reference to running steam in busy times they aren't proportionally worse for reliability than the service trains and as they pay they have just as much right to run as the units

In fact Tangmere is somewhat more reliable than certain units, I see some performance data and certain units regularly pop up for a period due to problems identifying the exact fault.

As an example a unit with a new gearbox had extensive testing off the mainline which went well, it was put into service and failed causing a lot of delay. There will only be backlash if its found to be a preventable issue that shouldn't have arisen and then the operator should bear the stigma not the steam movement. West Coast refused to operate Tornado for some time because it didn't have certificates from their approved suppliers so they couldn't meet their safety case without spending to certify another supplier. Spending that made it financially impossible to run at a reasonable profit so they didn't until the paperwork could be brought into line with their specific operation.

Hopefully another check can be added to the list once the report establishes what failed to minimise the risk of it happening again.

 

And much of it depends on the way any inquiries are conducted of course.  If it is an RAIB style job they will simply follow their usual course of 'was there a procedure and was it followed' rather than a full technical examination although a responsible loco owner would by now have already had their own technical inquiry underway.  As I said much earlier in this thread I would be surprised with this loco if all the paperwork was not in order - the real need is to find out what broke/came undone or whatever causing the rod to come adrift.

 

There is a potential problem in that the ORR 'has its eye' on the heritage sector although thus far that has mainly concerned the railways rather than mainline operations but whatever comes from the top of the organisation about emphasis could go down any branch of course and RAIB might be steered to this one - we simply don't know.  The important point in the overall context is exactly the one Paul makes in slightly different language - the folk running steam hauled excursions are 'just another operator, end of story (and I bet this loco was a lot better maintained and looked after than a number of diesels running round on the national network - witness the Stafford SPAD.

[Catkins]

If there is a 'rethink', then maybe some 'secondary' routes may benefit (e.g.) the Nottingham, Grantham, Lincoln, Retford, Worksop, Nottingham 'loop'? Untapped revenue IMO

P

I like that idea, along with a new steam TMD in Grantham or Sleaford - Anything doing your Lincolnshire Loop will have to reverse in those two towns - and possibly a re-run of the "Jolly Fishermen" steam specials of a few years ago.

 

Going back on topic, this must have been a very upsetting moment for the crew and owners, and I hope that a full mechanical investigation uncovers what events and/or actions led up to the failure, and that some sensible and practical recommendations are made.

[11B]

It is good news that there was no injuries or major damage...

 

But on a lighter note, after a conversation today with a fellow enthusiast, with some people calling types of motive power funny things like paraffin burners and sparkies..... Does this make Tangmere an Electric Kettle

 

Coat on and running for the door quite fast

 

Ian

[Gwiwer]

Dunno anbout an "electric kettle" but there have been steam multiple units over the years in some countries.  Brisbane in Australia still has a fleet known as "SMU" but in that case they are electric "Suburban Multiple Units"

[yorkie_pudd]

daddy look that trains crashed.

 

no son modern trains don't crash, its wheel were tired so it`s resting its nose on the buffer .........

 

 

 

door   -  BANG  -  gone ------------------------->

[jamie92208]

Dunno anbout an "electric kettle" but there have been steam multiple units over the years in some countries.  Brisbane in Australia still has a fleet known as "SMU" but in that case they are electric "Suburban Multiple Units"

The Swiss had some 'electric kettles' during WW2 due to coal shortage.   The picture I remember is of a shunting loco with a pantograph on top of the firebox.

 

Jamie

[pointstaken]

But didn't they draw so much current they stopped all the electric units ?

 

Dennis 

[roythebus]

Didn't Lizzy or one of the Duchess type drop a rod a couple of years ago on Shap? I don't seem to recall much flack or excrement colliding with enthusiast after that incident.

 

Remember Murphy's Law: if anything can break, it will. No amount of paperwork or processes will stop it. Many years back I shut down the entire SWD with a failed 455 at Earlsfield; it just kept tripping out the sub-station. The fault was eventually found to be a coke can resting on one of the shoe beams; as I took power, the shoe beam tilted slightly, causing a dead short. Delays? From about 1600 to 1900!! Inquiry? None. Also no call for a ban on coke cans being taken on trains or a ban on 455s running at peak times. so why call for any sort of ban on steam?

 

At a KESR "Thomas" event a couple of years ago, Thomas sounded poorly. A quick check by the driver found a cotter missing form inside valve linkage, so Thomas failed. A search of the track between Rolvenden and Tenterden revealed the missing cotter near the home signal. Thomas could have been a Very Naughty Engine and injured a lot of children! But the alertness of the crew prevented that. If it don't sound right, it ain't right!

[beast66606]

Black 5 slipped to a stand this am, because the failures are rare and to a special train they tend to make the "news" more. (It was eventually pushed up the bank by 33029)

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U53401/2013/11/28/advanced

[mow]

Black 5 slipped to a stand this am, because the failures are rare and to a special train they tend to make the "news" more. (It was eventually pushed up the bank by 33029)

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U53401/2013/11/28/advanced

Many thanks Beast for flagging that, I was going to photograph it...

[Rumpole]

Many thanks Beast for flagging that, I was going to photograph it...

On the move again now, was around 72 late from Bournemouth.

[PhilH]

Black 5 slipped to a stand this am, because the failures are rare and to a special train they tend to make the "news" more. (It was eventually pushed up the bank by 33029)

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U53401/2013/11/28/advanced

 

It's caused major delays according to local radio.

 

More £000s compensation...not good.

 

I was given an insight yesterday into the bill surrounding 34067's failure....my eyes are still watering now.

[beast66606]

On the move again now, was around 72 late from Bournemouth.

 

Indeed -that's why I posted the link to it's real time movements, hopefully mow can still get it.

[Mallard60022]

Quite amusing that the 'Code' for Poole is POO!

P

[Chris116]

On the same day as Tangmere suffered this failure I was on a steam special to Shrewsbury hauled by 70000 Britannia. We were held up by an hour thanks to a Freightline class 70 failing north of Newport. 70000 performed very well all day. I am just sorry that those on Tangmere's train had the delays they had. Let's hope that whatever caused the problem can be rectified so that it does not happen to other loco's in the future as a day out behind a steam loco working hard is always a great way to spend your time.

[The Stationmaster]

It's caused major delays according to local radio.

 

More £000s compensation...not good.

 

I was given an insight yesterday into the bill surrounding 34067's failure....my eyes are still watering now.

 

The money can mount up very quickly - I know the amounts vary between operators but back in the 1990s the concern I worked for was on £100 per minute of delay caused and - largely due to a bit of stupidity on the part of the 'Trackies - we built up a debt of a quarter of a million quid over a period of about 9 months (until they agreed to write-off a very large part of it).  Even if you're only on £10 per minute it really builds up very quickly if you delay half a dozen trains for only around 20 minutes each - and I bet there aren't many operators on figures that low!

[Ceptic]

Report received yesterday (Thurs. 28th. Nov.) that 34o67's replacement, on the 1Z87, 8.03 Poole - Bristol (Christmas markets), 5MT 44871, stalled on Parkstone bank, causing quite a bit of disruption to scheduled services. 

[Richard E]

Report received yesterday (Thurs. 28th. Nov.) that 34o67's replacement, on the 1Z87, 8.03 Poole - Bristol (Christmas markets), 5MT 44871, stalled on Parkstone bank, causing quite a bit of disruption to scheduled services. 

See post #72 above ...

[Ceptic]

See post #72 above ...

Whoops, Apologies to all, (I did check back to see if this was mentioned an'all). Next stop,....Specsavers.