Hornby announce DCC sound at ?25 a pop.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

The sound itself isn't expensive - it's the sound chip.

 

 

Only because, as Pauliebanger has pointed out, the chip is capable of being reprogrammed to a great extent by the user or a supplier using 'free' software that is constantly being updated and bugs eliminated.

 

I have no doubt that if ESU could charge you for the software and make it stick, the price of the decoder would drop considerably.

[pauliebanger]

The sound itself isn't expensive - it's the sound chip.

 

"Blank" ESU chips from SWD cost £84.75, chips with sound files are £96. 

 

It will be interesting to see how this pans out - small O gauge locos can often use a OO sound chip if it has a small motor with low current draw, so I'm sure there will be people buying the Hornby sound fitted locos, stripping the chip out for their O gauge small loco, and reselling the sound-less loco on Ebay to recover most of their expenditure.

 

As already put, it'll be whether it's a "plug in" chip or integrated into the loco's PCB whether this is an option or not.

 

I did not say the sound was the expensive part, that is a factor I deliberately left out. I said it was the R&D, decoder software, the programming software plus maintenance, updating and support of these resources. These are manufacturers costs, not retail prices.

 

ZIMO MX644D decoder from Digitrains without UK sounds   £82,

 

ZIMO MX644D decoder from Digitrains with UK sounds        £82

 

Apart from what a bargain they are compared to some others, what does that calculation tell you about the proportion of the total cost which relates to hardware?

 

What it does explain is that Digitrains absorbs any additional cost for sound so that customers pay no extra. You have quoted one source where it is clear that at least part of the cost of UK sound is added to the basic price. There are others where the same calculation would produce a much higher difference.

 

Hornby are either going to subsidise these decoders (unlikely!) or they have stripped their manufacturing costs, including all the overheads plus the hardware to enable them to be available at the reported £25 per loco. One way to do that is to avoid the expensive stuff like ability to be reprogrammed and customer usable sound loading software and all the support problems/costs which that could generate.

 

That's simple economics. But that only covers the price, not the quality, which we will all be able to assess in due course.

 

Paul

[PhilH]

 

Only because, as Pauliebanger has pointed out, the chip is capable of being reprogrammed to a great extent by the user or a supplier using 'free' software that is constantly being updated and bugs eliminated.

 

 

Does Mr Average really need this?

[pauliebanger]

Does Mr Average really need this?

 

Probably not, if the quality is 'good enough'.

 

But that does not explain why there are plenty of people who are prepared to pay extra for custom sounds. 

 

If price were the only criteria, Digitrax would have swept the board long ago.

 

My own experience was that I bought a sound fitted loco a few years ago, and for an hour or so I thought it was fantastic. Then I realised that there were shortcomings which I was unhappy with. So I decided I would try to do better myself and plumpted for ZIMO, mainly because at that time LokSound were £97 and ZIMO were £64. The big problem was that there were no UK sound projects available, so it had to be 'roll your own'.

 

If I, and a friend, had not made UK  sound projects available for ZIMO at low/no additional costs, who knows where things would be now. Would you be able to buy blank ESU Loks from SWD at £84? (They only dropped to that price earlier this year, probably due to losing market share to ZIMO).

 

That's why I welcome Hornby's intervention.

 

Why should I spend loads of time setting up recording sessions and scramble over locos fixing microphones at all hours and in all weathers to fulfill those agreements, spend hour upon hour perfecting a sound project mostly for other people's benefit, when, like everyone else I could sit in my chair at home in the warm and order a complete package at moderate cost via the internet?

 

And when that product arrives, I will probably do just that.

 

Paul

[NoggintheNog]

To be fair here, the cut down sound systems will not suit everyone, and I doubt they are intended to, just like some people would never have a model from the railroad range on their layouts , its just choice.

 

As I said previously, this has been going on for about a year in the US market, and I havent really seen any price reduction in the fully programmable chips or much change in demand to be honest, below is a link to what Bachmann budget sound is like, the dd40x is a very big loco, and with sound you can buy it in the UK for £125, its even cheaper for those int he states.

 

 

I would say that a large number of people, perhaps even a majority, will be perfectly happy with that level of sound, you can hear engines, sound the horn and squeal the brakes. Especially if its close to half the cost of the fancier ones.

[PhilH]

It would be interesting to hear that head to head with a high end decoder offering of the same prototype if one exists.

 

I've never really heard a big American diesel, so to me that would be good enough.......probably.

[NoggintheNog]

Well, this is the athearn version of the same engine, this is a good comparison as the soundchip is made by the same people, indeed, they probably use the same soundfile.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRrETM5yxgk

 

That engine is double the cost of the previous one.

 

Now, whether this comparison is anything like the levels Hornby are aiming for time will tell, but it does show what Bachmann can manage.

[pheaton]

Probably not, if the quality is 'good enough'.

 

But that does not explain why there are plenty of people who are prepared to pay extra for custom sounds. 

 

If price were the only criteria, Digitrax would have swept the board long ago.

 

My own experience was that I bought a sound fitted loco a few years ago, and for an hour or so I thought it was fantastic. Then I realised that there were shortcomings which I was unhappy with. So I decided I would try to do better myself and plumpted for ZIMO, mainly because at that time LokSound were £97 and ZIMO were £64. The big problem was that there were no UK sound projects available, so it had to be 'roll your own'.

 

If I, and a friend, had not made UK  sound projects available for ZIMO at low/no additional costs, who knows where things would be now. Would you be able to buy blank ESU Loks from SWD at £84? (They only dropped to that price earlier this year, probably due to losing market share to ZIMO).

 

That's why I welcome Hornby's intervention.

 

Why should I spend loads of time setting up recording sessions and scramble over locos fixing microphones at all hours and in all weathers to fulfill those agreements, spend hour upon hour perfecting a sound project mostly for other people's benefit, when, like everyone else I could sit in my chair at home in the warm and order a complete package at moderate cost via the internet?

 

And when that product arrives, I will probably do just that.

 

Paul

You've hit the nail exactly.

 

And I agree if the quality is good then there's no reason to re-blow....but and this is a big but is it going to be good....

 

and im going to say for an extra "quoted" £25 ?????, I agree with the sentiments about loksounds and zimo being expensive partially because of the maintenance required on the supporting software, but don't forget ESU expect an extra 130 notes out of you for a glorified RS232 adaptor so they make a lot of money out of that I suspect rather then the lokprogammer software which has a lot of very silly bugs in it that really shouldn't be there!

 

The other thing that sticks in my mind is this appear to be a Hornby in house development, which means (and this is the case with other as well) the software and the capability to load the programs on the decoder must exist! And the fact that it exists in a mass production environment must in the very least mean it's passed a factory acceptance test. So the only overheads would be in distribution which you could make up for by charging a fee and then the hardware which really should be built into your flagship dcc controller.

 

But what's the basis of my scepticism lest we forget this is coming from the company that until recently sold a 37 that came with optional types of bogie And my question is how much do they really engage in customer opinion?? And being the little apparent return on this product how much will they expend on it for this???

 

Ill try and be little blunter if during for example the development of your 47 project the majority of testers you may or may not have had told you it had flaws would you have corrected them? Ill guess and say personal pride, discipline, and your products current and future reputation mean you would have...if they were indeed pointed out to you and you agreed with them....But have Hornby done the same for there sound projects? Id be interested to know how many people who own a 31 or a 50 or a 56 or an 08 are still running around on the factory project?

 

At the end of the day I fully agree its fantastic and I fully applaud Hornby and maybe it will convice ESU and perhaps Zimo to drop prices to contain a potential or realised loss in market share.

Good luck Hornby and I think its paying dividends already given the points raised in the thread as its got a lot of people talking...

 

 

Before anyone asks if ive got anything againsed Hornby the answer is no....they represent 40% of my locomotive/MU rolling stock and the elite and elink and railmaster is the basis of the control system on my layout.

[PhilH]

Well, this is the athearn version of the same engine, this is a good comparison as the soundchip is made by the same people, indeed, they probably use the same soundfile.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRrETM5yxgk

 

That engine is double the cost of the previous one.

 

Now, whether this comparison is anything like the levels Hornby are aiming for time will tell, but it does show what Bachmann can manage.

 

Thanks for posting that. 

 

I'd have to have the Athearn version, just so much better in my opinion (not that I have a clue what the prototype sounds like)

[johnd]

From what is being said it seems that prices for sound have been high.

 

Competition is now beginning to happen and guess what -  prices are falling, something I said should happen a couple of years ago, think my comment was something like you either sell a few at a high price or more at lower prices.

 

Hopefully with lower prices more people will buy and the suppliers will still make the same profit. Seems to have taken a long time to happen.

[pauliebanger]

You've hit the nail exactly.

 

And I agree if the quality is good then there's no reason to re-blow....but and this is a big but is it going to be good....

 

and im going to say for an extra "quoted" £25 ?????, I agree with the sentiments about loksounds and zimo being expensive partially because of the maintenance required on the supporting software, but don't forget ESU expect an extra 130 notes out of you for a glorified RS232 adaptor so they make a lot of money out of that I suspect rather then the lokprogammer software which has a lot of very silly bugs in it that really shouldn't be there!

 

The other thing that sticks in my mind is this appear to be a Hornby in house development, which means (and this is the case with other as well) the software and the capability to load the programs on the decoder must exist! And the fact that it exists in a mass production environment must in the very least mean it's passed a factory acceptance test. So the only overheads would be in distribution which you could make up for by charging a fee and then the hardware which really should be built into your flagship dcc controller.

 

But what's the basis of my scepticism lest we forget this is coming from the company that until recently sold a 37 that came with optional types of bogie And my question is how much do they really engage in customer opinion?? And being the little apparent return on this product how much will they expend on it for this???

 

Ill try and be little blunter if during for example the development of your 47 project the majority of testers you may or may not have had told you it had flaws would you have corrected them? Ill guess and say personal pride, discipline, and your products current and future reputation mean you would have...if they were indeed pointed out to you and you agreed with them....But have Hornby done the same for there sound projects? Id be interested to know how many people who own a 31 or a 50 or a 56 or an 08 are still running around on the factory project?

 

At the end of the day I fully agree its fantastic and I fully applaud Hornby and maybe it will convice ESU and perhaps Zimo to drop prices to contain a potential or realised loss in market share.

Good luck Hornby and I think its paying dividends already given the points raised in the thread as its got a lot of people talking...

 

 

Before anyone asks if ive got anything againsed Hornby the answer is no....they represent 40% of my locomotive/MU rolling stock and the elite and elink and railmaster is the basis of the control system on my layout.

 

pheaton,

 

I think our positions on this are almost identical, so of course I agree with all you have said.

 

Paul

[legomanbiffo]

Do we know if anyone competent was involved in recording the sounds or designing the loudspeaker fit for these new locos?

 

With their first forays in this field they did neither (in my opinion) and the combination of these two factors caused considerable damage to people's perceptions of DCC sound, especially when Bachmann were doing the same. When I politely queried these points with Simon Kohler his view seemed to be 'they sell, what's the problem?' I came away feeling like an imbecile rather than a customer who's opinion he valued.

 

The problem he (and Hornby) failed to see was the price premium was in no way met by the offering. I am firmly of the view that if it was (as it could and should have been), people would say 'yes it's quite expensive, but actually I'm really happy with it'

 

I suspect that Hornby have now come to the conclusion that the lack of sales was because the sound was too expensive, not that the sound was rubbish. As such it would be easy to imagine the folly being repeated at the budget end of the market. I sincerely hope that they don't, it's not in anyone's interest.

 

Bif

[RedgateModels]

Agree Bif, I was very dubious about fitting the 28mm round speaker into my LMS 10000 but was pleasantly surprised how well it sounded - once I'd sealed it to the enclosure etc with black-tac. This simple process really does make the world of difference. Of course a properly researched and produced sound file helps too (sorry it was a Zimo chip )

 

I wish both manufacturers would listen to us DCC sound installers and maybe design in an enclosure to take a better speaker, Bachmann managed it with the latest class 37 - the 20x40 fits perfectly

 

I didn't seal the same type of speaker in my Hornby O1 and it's quite weedy, next time it comes out of the box guess what I'll be trying .....

[NoggintheNog]

Thanks for posting that. 

 

I'd have to have the Athearn version, just so much better in my opinion (not that I have a clue what the prototype sounds like)

Yes, it is better, and me personally, I would probably agree, especially with that particular loco, as its very much a 'centerpiece' model (the prototype was basically 2 large diesel engines on a single chassis, and the model actually has two motors in it).

 

However, when you throw in the fact that right now, you can buy the athearn at somewhere like caboose hobbies for $400, and the Bachmann is $160 , as good as the athearn is, how many people would opt for the one costing less than half and be perfectly happy? I expect a lot, and I think the same will apply to this Hornby range.

A £200+ 37 with a custom sound file is a wonderful thing, but for many more people, a £100 37 that makes a reasonable approximation of the right noises will be more attractive.

[tractor_37260]

Going by the photo in the latest REX mag - the new Hornby low cost sound decoder will come with an 8pin plug/harness, and an 8ohm speaker -  it's not built in as part of a circuit board etc. It will feature quite a number of function sounds but will not be re-blowable.

 

Disagree !! - with what ? perhaps you'd like to clarify ? it's unlikely REX mag got it wrong, their article also includes a photo of the forthcoming TTS decoder/speaker assy etc.

[pauliebanger]

If you check the ZIMO prices in euros (UVP, in German = RRP, in English =Recommended Retail Price), you will find that most of the sound decoders have decreased in price by 10 euros or so from 2013 prices compared to older 2010 prices. If you want the details, I can give them to you with the official ZIMO price lists as downloaded from the ZIMO website. Any increase, or decrease in prices in pounds must be due to currency fluctuations, which neither ZIMO nor the UK dealers can control. ZIMO try very hard to keep the prices competitive, despite the increase in staff costs (2 or 3% a year in Austria) and increases in the component prices. So, saying that ZIMO have increased their prices is just not correct. 

 

Regards

John Russell

Austria

 

John,

 

Thank you for 'correcting' me in public It would have been more appropriate had you been right. Unfortunately, it is you who is incorrect in saying ZIMO have made no price increases.

 

You do not need to supply me with former price lists from the ZIMO site, I already have them stored on my computer.

 

Zimo increased prices in January 2013.

 

For example MX645R February 2011,    91Euros,   February 2012,    91 Euros,    February 2013,     94 Euros

                     MX646R February 2011,  101Euros,   February 2012,  101 Euros,     February 2013,  104 Euros

 

These figures are, of course, from the published price lists on the ZIMO website. They look to me to show a modest increase in price. What do you think it shows?

 

So in fact, saying that ZIMO have increased prices is precisely what has occurred.

 

Paul

[WD0-6-0]

What do people think of the P2 with this new sound? A bit difficult to compare since there isn't a standard model out yet but does anyone think that it'll be so popular it will sell out quick?

 

Rhys

[WD0-6-0]

Also does anyone know what kind of sound files could be used for that P2? With no prototype to record I see some slight issues.

 

Rhys

[corax67]

Also does anyone know what kind of sound files could be used for that P2? With no prototype to record I see some slight issues.

Rhys

It's highly probable some of these may be 'generic' steam or diesel sounds rather than model specific tailored sound files but if the models are aimed at drawing people into the DCC sound arena then these users may not care about that level of detail.

 

If these prices are indeed correct then I for one will be happy to buy some and won't care if a diesel shunter decoder doesn't exactly sound like an 03 or 04 or 08 as long as my friends kids like the fact the train makes a noise when it runs when they play trains at our house.

[Jon Fitness]

"Pop!"....isn't that what happens to most decoders?     _{runs for cover.......} 

[GraemeWatson]

I am intrigued to hear the Hornby sound offering, however, if as the Model Rail (Jan) info box suggests, a frying bacon sound effect isn't exactly the same level of highbrow programming that goes into Paul or Bif's sound projects... Cue an imminent "Diesel driver sipping tea from a thermos flask and reading the newspaper version 1" on a dim and distant function number!

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I am intrigued to hear the Hornby sound offering, however, if as the Model Rail (Jan) info box suggests, a frying bacon sound effect isn't exactly the same level of highbrow programming that goes into Paul or Bif's sound projects... Cue an imminent "Diesel driver sipping tea from a thermos flask and reading the newspaper version 1" on a dim and distant function number!

 

The past is littered with sound gimmicks. Not that long ago that we were being treated to the driver's footsteps on gravel, tinging of hobnails on ladder and door opening and closing on startup sound files.

 

We have also had home made files for station announcements complete with regional accents.

 

You find that these sorts of sounds quite quickly pall and become 'lost'.

[pauliebanger]

I'm a bit less 'sniffy' about so called gimmick sounds than some.

 

And who decides what's a gimmick anyway?

 

Is the ability to have 'multi-starts' a gimmick or a legitimate way to add variety and enhance the user's enjoyment?

 

Are different door sounds at each end of a diesel loco self indulgent or a valid attempt to add to the 'authenticity'?

 

Is the sound of a drop light opening and closing on a DMU sound project simply a bit of whimsy, or an essential part of the sound scene for these types of vehicles?

 

My personal view is that so long as the main sounds are not compromised for the sake of added 'play value' sounds, nothing is lost and everyone's a winner. Those of us who like lots of variety for our hard earned cash can slam doors and march up and down on the gravel as much a we like, those who prefer to concentrate only on driving sounds can avoid pressing the 'gimmick button'.

 

I see this as a matter of providing choice. If it's included in a project, users can choose whether to deploy it or not. If it's not there, you have no choice.

 

Maybe a loop of 'white noise' to suggest frying bacon is going a bit further than I would personally, but if there's a demand for it and no down-side, I'd be happy to add it.

 

I would not, however, like my projects to be defined by it, and maybe that's what David is really saying.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

 

I would not, however, like my projects to be defined by it, and maybe that's what David is really saying.

 

 

Exactly.

 

All the gimmicks I have listed ( I forgot the seagulls ) have not really sold more sound decoders. Nevertheless I see no problem with a 'trademark' recording on a function button for each compiler which then identifies that compiler and the date of the recording perhaps in the form of a fake announcement on an agreed function button..........

 

Of course a DIY project can contain anything the compiler wants. Not sure that it is really commercial and RTR is bigger now.

[GraemeWatson]

In comparison to bacon, the scene setting station ambience on the Zimo Rail Exclusive 47 and digitrains sound projects really does enhance my operational experience, and adds excellent ambience when a train rolls into the terminus station!