jcredfer Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Given that Railroad are intended to be starter models, aimed at the more junior followers of the hobby [and others like me who might just like a model for how I like its looks going round a track .. ] ........ With the aim of illustrating the synchronization of "chuffs" with the rotation of the wheels, here are some cllips: My clip of the Hornby P2 Cock O' The North with TTS sound is on YouTube at: http://youtu.be/proLvYyzsBM My clip of the Hornby Clun Castle with digital dcc sound is on YouTube at http://youtu.be/2SFZLXerRWo Also, I have a clip of the Hornby Railroad A4 Gadwell with TTS sound at: http://youtu.be/NaZqASPzfQg While these TTS sound locomotives are truly impressive developments, the lack of synchronization of sound and wheels might be problematic for some. ............. I would think that TTS is fairly well aimed at Railroad Loco buyers. The improved detail non-Railroad, on the other hand might well be a disappointment for me with TTS and worth getting something more adjustable. If I were to spend the extra money to get a really nice detailed model, it sort of feels that better sound goes with the territory. Regards Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted November 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2014 You'd think even with the vagaries of motors they would be able to get it roughly in synch. Is it a compromise in realisim vs sounding like people expect? Lgb supply all their locos as two chuffs as standard and you have to alter the cv to get 4. It's definitely a good idea so let's hope they continue to tweak it. Possibly they don't want to compete directly with the premium esu ones until they can introduce synching and might introduce an intermediate version for a bit more? Might dare I say it be a good marketing ploy to later sell an upgraded chip with the extra function at a slight premium? As they've hit the market at less than a quarter the price of custom chips there's plenty of room to provide a cheap synch controllable chip at a decent profit and still be way under their competitors prices. Not good enough yet to tempt me from the full option chips but very close Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 I'm not sure what it should be synched with, wrt crank position - I guess that is what you see, not the steam exiting the blast pipe. If your eye is, say 3ft from the model, the sound delay wrt the crank position should be about 200mS (76metres full size), 6ft would be 400mS. You can't scale nature. If it is a case of locking the frequency into the rpm of the wheels, which has been done, then it has to bear some resemblance to the load, wheel slip, etc. Bound to take more time/money to get that right. And then, at the end of the day, it has to satisfy the user, so it 'sounds right', and that is purely a personal opinion, since you can't scale nature. (I'm not saying anyone shouldn't try, but it can never be right.) The Gadwell clip sounds OK, but that is in video, not the model, where different illusions come into play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 If your eye is, say 3ft from the model, the sound delay wrt the crank position should be about 200mS (76metres full size), The camera was about 3 inches from the model. Without checking your calculations, theoretically a sound delay would just cause a phase shift in synchronization, like out-of-lip-sync TV. I am not sure I think such a delay is important. If you look at the Clun Castle clip, which must have the same delay as it was made with the same set-up, then the "perceived" synchronization is not affected by such delay, only by the realities of the design of the model. All I can say is that there is a difference between Clun Castle and the TTS sound locos in synchronization, but whether or not it is a problem for you is another matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Hi Bob, I agree with what you are saying, but the whole idea of scale and illusion is interesting. For example, if you have a two cylinder loco, there will be four 'chuffs' per rev. Depending on the reversing gear settings, these will occur at different delays compared to crank/wheel position. Now, consider slow motion, so you can actually see the crank position, with the full size loco, when you actually hear those chuffs related to where you see the crank, will vary, depending on the distance from the loco, roughly by 200mS delay for every 76metres distance. However, if it is something you are used to, then you understand what is happening. For a model, the delay will be only about 3mS per metre distance, so unless you can slow down the transmission of sound waves through air in the model environment, you will never get accurate sound related to crank position, but it is quite feasible to fool your/others' minds into getting some way towards it. I think it is these sort of fundamental effects that contribute to making it more difficult to get realistic steam loco sound compared to, say diesel (more of a general vibration, not related to cranks, etc.) (In the same way it is impossible to get the Doppler effect in the model, without some sort of volume/pitch control outside of the model itself). I think, the 'fakery', these days is to try and make a model, that when videoed at the correct angles, looks and sounds like the full sized loco. However, if it was powered by steam, it would not do so. I'm not being critical of what is being done, just pointing out that some things, due to physics, if you like, are impossible. Rivet counting, by comparison, is easy The trouble is, with all this stuff, there is always room for improvement, but in the case of model steam loco sound it can 'never' be correct, but of course, at my age, 76metres away it would be a job to hear or see anything much. Best wishes, Ray edit to correct a decimal point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Hi Bob, I agree with what you are saying, but the whole idea of scale and illusion is interesting. For example, if you have a two cylinder loco, there will be four 'chuffs' per rev. Depending on the reversing gear settings, these will occur at different delays compared to crank/wheel position. Now, consider slow motion, so you can actually see the crank position, with the full size loco, when you actually hear those chuffs related to where you see the crank, will vary, depending on the distance from the loco, roughly by 200mS delay for every 76metres distance. However, if it is something you are used to, then you understand what is happening. Personally, I don't look at the actual crank position at each chuff, only the number of chuffs per revolution. With the TTS locos the number of chuffs per revolution is mostly random except maybe at the very slowest speed, as far as I can tell, while for dcc digital sound there is synchronization. If you introduce other variables, such as the time delay in crank position caused by the speed of sound, and the Doppler effect, and the impact of those at model level relative to real size, then - "I hate it when it gets complicated". As far as I am concerned two variables are something I can understand easily at one time, and when you introduce a third variable then everything is manageable, but requires more thought. Here we are talking about "chuffs per revolution" - two variables. Then add the differences in the force and rate of the sounds of the chuffs as the engine rail speed changes, then you have third and fourth variables. Some of us can cope with that. Add the position of the crank at each chuff and we have a fifth variable, and then the speed of sound concept makes sixth and seventh variables. The speed of sound causes two things, one of which is the phase shift with respect to the crank position, and the other is the Doppler effect due to the changing speed of sound according to the direction of travel of the locomotive. If I may parallel these thoughts: think of a map with contours, which is inherently three variables; these are the two dimensions of distance, and the third dimension of the contour lines, which are elevation represented on the map. I know a good few people who find just those three variables to be difficult to grasp! I can count chuffs and watch the wheels, and speed up and slow down the loco, and be happy. Anything else beyond these three variables is complicated. I suggest TTS sound is for "two or three variable" people, while Digital sound is for "three variable or more" people... (ok tongue in cheek please!!!!) By the way, I agree Ray that this is in the category of "interesting" rather than pedantic or significant!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-e Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I've been trying to find the release dates for the Class 40 version in the hope to order 1 for Christmas however the Hornby site has the Expected date as 01/02/2015 Full set of dates as per Hornby site could any retailer confirm please. http://www.Hornby.com/railroad-br-empress-of-canada-class-40-with-tts-sound.html Class 40 01/02/2015 http://www.Hornby.com/railroad-br-class-47-with-tts-sound.html Class 47 01/05/2014 http://www.Hornby.com/railroad-lner-4-6-2-flying-scotsman-a1-class-with-tts-sound.html Scotsman 01/04/2015 http://www.Hornby.com/railroad-network-rail-class-37-with-tts-sound.html Class 37 ?????? http://www.Hornby.com/railroad-lner-4-6-2-gadwall-a4-class-with-tts-sound.html A4 Gadwell ????? Steve Had an update from Hattons the 37 due on 04th Feb the class 40 now 1st July 2015 Which bizarrely is good for me as I has 2 of each ordered and all were due on 1st Feb... that would have been a hard one to explain to SWMBO.... Main Hornby site still has the 40 as 1st Feb though.... Other ones seem to be http://www.Hornby.co...-tts-sound.html Class 47 01/03/2015 Hornby site , March - May 2015 Hattons http://www.Hornby.co...-tts-sound.html Scotsman Q2 Hornby site, March - May 2015 Hattons http://www.Hornby.com/locomotives/tts-digital-sound-locomotives/br-4-6-0-king-richard-ii-6000-class-br-early-with-tts-sound.html King 01/11/2015 Hornby site , 02/11/2015 Hattons Hope its of some use... Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Hi I have just checked Hornby site Class 47 Expected 01/03/2015 http://www.Hornby.com/locomotives/tts-digital-sound-locomotives/railroad-br-class-47-with-tts-sound.html I will be curious to see how diesel TTS sound PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted January 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2015 I think TTS could be a transformational product. True, it is not as good as the higher end sound products but it adds peanuts to the price of a regular model and I think it will be good enough for many. Now I know "good enough" is a red rag to a bull for many modellers but in this case if you get sound for barely more than non-sound then I think many will be willing to allow a degree of lattitude that they would not allow if paying £100+ for the sound system. And if this grows the market for sound equipped models then it should benefit the whole sound market by growing the market for sound equipped models. I believe Hornby should be applauded for this innovation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 My only worry will be that TTS will be so successful that Hornby will stop making the higher end sound products..... Personally, the lack of synchronization of TTS steam engine sounds with rotation of the wheels grates, although the TTS diesel locomotive sounds will be less likely to cause a problem for me. I have posted a few YouTube clips of TTS steam engine sounds, such as Gadwell: and the P2: elsewhere in this topic. And if this grows the market for sound equipped models then it should benefit the whole sound market by growing the market for sound equipped models. I believe Hornby should be applauded for this innovation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 My only worry will be that TTS will be so successful that Hornby will stop making the higher end sound products..... Personally, the lack of synchronization of TTS steam engine sounds with rotation of the wheels grates, although the TTS diesel locomotive sounds will be less likely to cause a problem for me. I have posted a few YouTube clips of TTS steam engine sounds, such as Gadwell: and the P2: elsewhere in this topic. Hi Bob Would you like to share the You Tube links? PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I did not wish to double post, but here they are: My clip of the Hornby P2 Cock O' The North with TTS sound is on YouTube at: Also, I have a clip of the Hornby Railroad A4 Gadwell with TTS sound at: Also, for comparison, I have a clip of the Hornby Clun Castle with traditional digital dcc sound at Hi Bob Would you like to share the You Tube links? PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Thank you for sharing these, the different is clear to see. I guess the question is, how many people actually count the revolutions of the wheel to the shunt sound? The next part is the sound when you have more than one engine with sound running at the same time. Finally the number of people who are partly deaf, all the varying degrees. I must admit, I was surprised, TTS was better than I initially expected. If I run TTS and my steam train with Loksound I know the difference but taking all those items mentioned above and the price they are going to sell. Hence your concern Bob, which I can fully understand... My only worry will be that TTS will be so successful that Hornby will stop making the higher end sound products..... That statement also summing up, they have not done a bad job 'for the price' PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Thank you for sharing these, the different is clear to see. I guess the question is, how many people actually count the revolutions of the wheel to the shunt sound? TTS was better than I initially expected. I am really glad you can see and hear the difference between TTS sound and regular digital sound. Actually counting the wheel revolutions is part of it, and I think for some people, it really does not matter either way, but for others it is a big deal. I instinctively feel the difference. I can tell without looking too closely at the wheels whether or not the loco is in sync with its sound. I believe that I have a sort of subconscious feel for the relationship between the speed of the loco, the flashing of the rods, and the number of chuffs at the chimney, especially at low speeds. To me, it is disturbing when things are out of sync. However, I have not done a test where I listen to a loco and not know whether it is TTS or digital sound... I could be fooling myself. Anyhow, the price issue is a really serious one in my view, and I know I am likely to buy at least two TTS sound locos for every regular DS loco, just from a price point of view. Money usually talks even for those with other "subconscious" imperatives! TTS sound is not better than I expected. I thought that TTS sound was going to be a "non-programmable, or factory pre-set" version of digital sound, but it is degraded more than that - it is also a "generic" sound that has a degraded relationship with the activities of the locomotive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
model-trains Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hi When I referred to better than I expected I was referring to sound only, not sync to wheel. Time will only tell Bob, I think there will always be a market for both the to what percentage is probably the question only time can answer. PJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Which bit of the ad saying 'out of stock' did you not notice - i.e. not available now - come back later in February. Never mind when you get it no doubt you will be impressed by the sound value you get for your money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Which bit of the ad saying 'out of stock' did you not notice - i.e. not available now - come back later in February. Never mind when you get it no doubt you will be impressed by the sound value you get for your money. When I posted it said "Available and usually dispatched withing 24 hours" I actually saw it in the new arrivals section. Nevermind....misleading post now deleted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2015 Nearly four at low speed but drops to two beats at higher speeds which means you don't get the near roar at higher speeds which is a shame. If they just tweaked the ratio up a bit so you dropped to three at speed it would sound better as it doesn't sound like it's really motoring when going high speed. The chuff is convincing and acceptably generic for most. Very good for the money but not likely to hurt ESU and Zimo yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdw7300 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 When I posted it said "Available and usually dispatched withing 24 hours" I actually saw it in the new arrivals section. Nevermind....misleading post now deleted. Kernow definately said in stock this afternoon. I simultaneously got an email from Hattons saying my order (from Dec 2013!) had moved to packing and dispatch team. Fingers crossed mine will arrive next week.... <edit> just checked my emails again - mines been dispatched today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Popped into Digitrains today to have a chat with the lads. A couple of these had been delivered earlier. Not due out until March, but here they are now. Kind regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipstream Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Shame about the hideous livery. How does the 37 sound compared to, say, Bif's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
g0ibi Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Well I'm enjoying my DoG, having only a short layout it never gets a chance to speed up and at low speed is most acceptable.Looking forward to the Class 40 ! Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-e Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I also tried to order the 37 from Kernow today based on the website saying in stock to be told they will be in next month. Also had 2 preorders from Hattons missed a call from them checking that I had not a duplicate order as they were processing the order and by the time I got back to them they said there were none left... So rubbish day today and no impressed with both maybe pre-ordering direct is the future, perhaps some may say sending limited stocks to the shops was a stratagy... hopefully my orders will be sent soon. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2015 Howes had the 37/97 in stock today when i called in, about £87 iirc, the yellow looks hidious though, almost like the network rail 86 they did a few years back Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 My recent experience is that it is more than possibly a Strategy ........ I also tried to order the 37 from Kernow today based on the website saying in stock to be told they will be in next month. Also had 2 preorders from Hattons missed a call from them checking that I had not a duplicate order as they were processing the order and by the time I got back to them they said there were none left...So rubbish day today and no impressed with both maybe pre-ordering direct is the future, perhaps some may say sending limited stocks to the shops was a stratagy...hopefully my orders will be sent soon.Steve Ordered A4, Gadwall TTS, several months before Christmas, from local dealer ....................... eventually saw Hornby notice saying a batch were in. ............. nothing arrived with dealer. Saw next notice on the same Loco, a second batch due in 14 Dec? ............ asked local Dealer if one would be delivered ................... he got no definite answer from Hornby .... I decided to ring Hornby, to ask when a delivery for my order may be expected and was told that the information was with the despatch Dep't, but they did have 18 in stock. When pressed on a date, I got recommended to cancel with the Local Dealer and buy one of the ones Hornby had in stock. .............. ................ ................ ............................. I like my Local Dealer - he has honorable standards ............. nuff said! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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