Hornby D16/3

[Downer]

According to my trusty 1955 Combined Volume there were five sub-sets of this class at the time.  One retained the decorative footplating, and so isn't relevant for the moment.  Then there's the one that Hornby seem to be producing (if the numbers suggested are correct), which had the larger round-topped boiler and modified footplating.  The final three versions had these as well, but one of these had eight inch piston valves, one had nine and a half inch piston valves, and one retained slide valves.  Now, I don't have a clue what piston or slide valves are, so I've no idea whether they're visible, or big enough to matter if they are.  Can anyone help?

Edited December 20, 2013 by Downer

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't think you need to worry too much. Very few modellers bother to represent inside valve gear in 4mm scale and I am fairly sure Hornby won't.

 

Good to start a thread on this release though. The mainstream manufacturers have rather neglected 4-4-0's until recently. Yet they were a big part of the steam scene in this country until 1960 and far more practical on most layouts than large Pacifics which they have tended to focus on.

[Hilux5972]

I don't think you need to worry too much. Very few modellers bother to represent inside valve gear in 4mm scale and I am fairly sure Hornby won't.

I wouldn't be too sure. The Drummond T9, GWR 28xx, castle, and star all had moulded representations of the internal valve gear. If the D16/3 is to be part of the main range then there's no reason to not expect it to have moulded internal valve gear

[Arthur]

We're talking here about the valves, not the valve gear. The valves are internal and themselves are not at all visible. The steam chests in which they operate do differ, slide valves usually running in roughly rectangular 'boxes', piston valves in cylinders. However, on an inside cylinder loco, like the D16, the steam chests are also between the frames so are barely visible and the valve gear driving them is the same for both types. So, unless the D16 has some particularly unique features, then I'd suggest it will make little difference to the model.

[Gilwell Park]

We're talking here about the valves, not the valve gear. The valves are internal and themselves are not at all visible. The steam chests in which they operate do differ, slide valves usually running in roughly rectangular 'boxes', piston valves in cylinders. However, on an inside cylinder loco, like the D16, the steam chests are also between the frames so are barely visible and the valve gear driving them is the same for both types. So, unless the D16 has some particularly unique features, then I'd suggest it will make little difference to the model.

Hi.

 

The piston valve engines had modified frames with convex curves instead of concave in front of the smokebox and different length reversing rods to the slide valve engines. The numbers Hornby quote are slide valve engines without the decorative valancing.  Would Hornby please consider producing this version, they look much better and are more difficult to make.

 

Roger.

[FelixM]

Hattons e-mail suggests that there will be a 1948 version instead of a late crest one. See here for the three types planned now: http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/results.aspx?searchfield=d16/3

 

I did a quick search but I found no Clauds with LNER numbers with 1948 style E prefixes like some B1 had (which was my first guess). What could a 1948 livery then be?

 

Kind regards

Felix

[Fenman]

Hattons e-mail suggests that there will be a 1948 version instead of a late crest one. See here for the three types planned now: http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/results.aspx?searchfield=d16/3

 

I did a quick search but I found no Clauds with LNER numbers with 1948 style E prefixes like some B1 had (which was my first guess). What could a 1948 livery then be?

 

Kind regards

Felix

 

It has "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on the tender. 8783 was painted apple green (and used as a Royal engine); I think the remainder were black.

 

I haven't seen anywhere a note of which Claud R3235 will be, or what colour.

 

Paul

[Ian Hargrave]

Hattons e-mail suggests that there will be a 1948 version instead of a late crest one. See here for the three types planned now: http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/results.aspx?searchfield=d16/3

 

I did a quick search but I found no Clauds with LNER numbers with 1948 style E prefixes like some B1 had (which was my first guess). What could a 1948 livery then be?

 

Kind regards

Felix

 

Hattons e-mail suggests that there will be a 1948 version instead of a late crest one. See here for the three types planned now: http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/results.aspx?searchfield=d16/3

 

I did a quick search but I found no Clauds with LNER numbers with 1948 style E prefixes like some B1 had (which was my first guess). What could a 1948 livery then be?

 

Kind regards

Felix

Would imagine wartime black.Don't know if any were painted in LNER/BR apple green. 'British Railways' on tender is probably a safe bet.

[great northern]

Would imagine wartime black.Don't know if any were painted in LNER/BR apple green. 'British Railways' on tender is probably a safe bet.

In 1948 all of the class save one would have been in unlined black, some still with LNER on the tender, and others with British Railways. The exception was (6)2614, one of the pre war Royal engines, which was given lined green again as early as 1946. What's more it was painted apple green again as late as November 1949, with the first cycling lion emblem. 62618 was also painted apple green with crest in October 1949. 62614 remained green until April 1952!

 

Just to complicate things further, although all of the last batch built originally had the decorative valances, 62614 had them removed pre war, and so could be done from the model Hornby have announced. I wrote to Simon Kohler three years ago suggesting that he should consider a D16 precisely because of the numerous variants that existed. Belpaire boilers and oil burning tenders give even more scope for limited editions.

[PaulG]

The Hornby announcement was a surprise in that it included three GE Section locos. Also strange that Hornby didn't announce (1) 62614 which was out-shopped in LNER green with BR number/emblem, (2) 8900 "Frederick the Great" / "Claud Hamilton" or (3) 62546 which carried the name "Claud Hamilton after 8900 was withdrawn in 1947. Especially as Hornby seem to be attracted by loco names.

 

I see Hornby have announced R3235 - British Railways (full lettering) D16/3 No. 2524; there is a photo of this loco in Yeadon's Register Vol 14 page 93 and the loco had the pre-fix "E", which I hope Hornby have noticed!

 

Now Hornby has both the small and large GER tender, it opens up scope for the larger GER freight locos J19 and J20 and smaller E4 and J17 in the future; the advantage of Holdens standardisation.

 

Paul

[FelixM]

Thank you Paul for the information.

 

Felix

[knapper]

Hattons have now an put all versions as a September release (5th or after to be precise, but that's obviously meaningless).

 

Edit:

Grammer as normal

Edited January 13, 2014 by knapper

[Gilwell Park]

Hi.  Are we certain yet which livery versions intend to produce?  I want to order a BR version but catalogues and adverts are not clear. Don't want to order the wrong version.

 

Thanks

 

Roger.

[31A]

I have ordered R3234 which is described as 'Early BR' (which I believe means the pre-1956 'cycling lion' emblem), as I found out that the other BR version (R3235), described as 'Early BR (1948)' has the tender lettered 'BRITISH RAILWAYS'.  I can't remember where I found that out from, one of the mags I think, but hope this helps.  Presumably R3233, described as 'Pre 1948' is the LNER liveried version.

 

Interesting to read in Model Rail that the D16 is expected to be one of the earliest of the newly announced locos to be available (October, together with the LSW 700), although as far as I know no pictures have been shown yet of any prototypes etc.

[Downer]

There are pics on the first page of the Meet the Team thread in the Hornby section.

[Fenman]

There are pics on the first page of the Meet the Team thread in the Hornby section.

 

Click here.

 

Paul

[31A]

There are pics on the first page of the Meet the Team thread in the Hornby section.

 

 

Click here.

 

Paul

 

So there are - thank you!  I must have seen those before and forgotten.  Looks lovely, doesn't it!

[Fenman]

So there are - thank you!  I must have seen those before and forgotten.  Looks lovely, doesn't it!

 

I am hugely looking forward to this - possibly even more than the APT-E!

 

Paul

[45568]

Email from the Big H this morning, BR early emblem version due on 28/10/14. Looking forward to this, fingers crossed!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Looks lovely, doesn't it!

Especially when it is remembered that this is a hybrid of Stratford and Doncaster practise. Yet it produced a most harmonious result, and the steel ring on the smokebox door which could be and often was burnished. gave that little touch of distinction. I can see Hornby prying a lot of cash out of wallets with this beauty, even before the various LNER and BR liveried 'Royal engines' in this class are placed before us.

 

We're going to be all over Hornby for a renewal of the B12/3 to the same standard aren't we? Even though any of J17, J67-69 and N7 would be much more sensible choices...

[Hroth]

We're going to be all over Hornby for a renewal of the B12/3 to the same standard aren't we? Even though any of J17, J67-69 and N7 would be much more sensible choices...

It would nice to see a new version of the B12/3 to a similar standard - its a very pretty light 4-6-0, and a long-time stalwart of the Hornby stable that should be reinstated.

[Hilux5972]

I agree. And with the only preserved example of an inside cylinder 4-6-0, it has that special something about it.

[Pint of Adnams]

It might be said that it was a hybrid of Stratford and Doncaster practice but it is written elsewhere that when the original A1 was being designed it was decided that the cab should not be the skimpy GNR style but should be based on GER practice. [Too late and too hot tonight but I will source the reference*].

 

Edit: *Great Northern Locomotive History Volume 3b 1911-1922 The Gresley Era, N Groves, RCTS 1992 - p89. It was apparently at Bert Spencer's suggestion, the GNR type cab, as used on the class H4 (LNER K3) 2-6-0 which was Gresley's precursor 3-cylinder test bed, being found too difficult to attach firmly.

 

The change to long-travel valves had already been worked out at Stratford for the N7s (by an ex-GER Stratford man), so really it was just a matter of boiler standardisation with the fittings to suit. The first locomotives to be rebuilt (B12s) were actually to an LNER order, amended (at disputed cost) to have Lenz valve gear fitted; a Gresley experiment that did not turn out well, but lesson learned, and the instruction was issued to rebuild them with long-travel valves.

 

Thompson was at Doncaster only as C&W Superintendent for the GNR before returning to the NER in a similar position at York and assuming the same for the whole of the LNER on Grouping. His first locomotive post was as Assistant Mechanical Engineer Stratford, so he'd had very little exposure to Doncaster practice.

 

Nevertheless the proportions worked well and set a pattern for future rebuilds of former GER locomotives. The overall proportions of other rebuilds were not always so aesthetic, witness some of the GCR and NER results.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Pint of Adnams

[Multiple identity account]

R3233
R3234

[45568]

Very very nice! I have R3234 on pre-order with Hattons, should I make it two???

cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

 

Edited to add: I feel a 62546 moment coming on!!!! Nameplates from Modelmaster.......

Edited August 14, 2014 by 45568