darren01 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 HI All I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem with Fox transfers, I was given a very badly painted Dapol County to strip and repaint and line, for someone I ordered from Fox a lining kit for it; I cut out the lining and place for a few seconds in warm water (not hot) the lining just started to broke up. So next I tried putting it in cold water, and again the lining broke up in to small pieces, this made the job a real pain to do. The loco is now finished, but it took me ten times longer to do because of this! Is their anything I was doing wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer27jd Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 HI All I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem with Fox transfers, I was given a very badly painted Dapol County to strip and repaint and line, for someone I ordered from Fox a lining kit for it; I cut out the lining and place for a few seconds in warm water (not hot) the lining just started to broke up. So next I tried putting it in cold water, and again the lining broke up in to small pieces, this made the job a real pain to do. The loco is now finished, but it took me ten times longer to do because of this! Is their anything I was doing wrong? I have had the same problem with white numbers for BR Blue locos. I contacted Fox and they replaced them but the replacements were much the same. I eventually managed to get the loco numbers using bits that were still intact. Hugely frustrating. I have been using alternatives where I can but Fox have probably got the best range. If they have had a few problems hopefully they have been told about and have resolved it. So I don't think its anything your doing. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibateg Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I have had trouble with Fox transfers when they get old, and generally order just before I need them. I wonder if it was old stock? With the loco specific lining panels, I cut them into small sections, ie. corners and straights to apply. With patience they do come out ok. But I always order twice what I need! Regards Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor quinn Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 If I'm suspicious of waterslide decals, I spray them with enamel varnish before application to hold the bits together. Microscale do "Decal Saver" which is a product intended for the job. Hope this helps for the next one. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Fox use quite a thin backing layer to hold their trainsfers together (which is why I prefer them) but it probably does mean they have a shorter lifespan. I didn't have any problems with the 12 sheets of numbers I bought recently and I was giving them quite a bit of prodding. It does sound like old stock and i'd send them a picture if you can of the sort of break up you mention. The old Airfix transfers you get with their old railway range does this if you try using them still! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGERS Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I had a similar problem with Mk1 coach lining which was bought from them a few days before it was applied, the situation wasn't resolved amicably and I went elsewhere in the end. I'd used Fox transfers before and have done since and the problem does seem to be restricted to the larger images and lining which don't seem to have the physical strength to hold together. The smaller stuff has worked fine for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I had the same problem with the green lining for BRCW 'Lion', contacted Fox who had me return the rest of the sheet which still had one side of the green lining on it. They said they tested the rest of the sheet and found nothing wrong. They did send a replacement sheet but made it sound as if they where doing me a huge favour. I now stick to HMRS and other makes before resorting to Fox Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Interesting - I've had some PC Models / HMRS Pressfix transfers filed away in a folder in some dark drawer away from any light. They've been in there literally years without ever being disturbed. I do have Fox Transfers products in respect of diesel headcode characters and Hymek numbers, but haven't yet experienced the disintegration described. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have used their lining for LNER wheels and it is a real pain. Once applied it appears to hardly any retaining glue. I have used setting solutions with little difference very easy to flake off even when varnished. Very poor quality it is not even printed with the lining centered up properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 This can be an issue with waterslide decals. I've had decals from various manufacturers do this at one time or another - it does seem to be age-related, but may also be related to how they are stored. I'd guess that either the adhesive has hardened isn't loosening quickly enough so the swelling of the backing paper pulls the decal apart or the transfer/film has hardened or contracted and again is affected by the swelling of the backing paper. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have had a problem with LNER coach liningfrom another source. It just doesn't stick. Much prefer methfix myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Recent pack of Fox transfers has an additional sheet with it saying a drop of washing up liquid should be added to the warm water - wonder if it matters what sort of washing up liquid it is (anti-bac etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I seem to suffer from the dreaded "twist n curl" affect. The large logo numbers are the worse offenders. I always try to ease the transfer from the backing paper as close to the delivery area as possible, but have found curly numbers like 3 & 8's etc just seem to curl over on me and wont restraighten. Sometimes plopping them back into the water will allow them to flatten, but I've wasted quite a few numbers. For larger transfers (like inter-city) I split the transfer in two or more segments to reduce the chance of the transfers curling around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted February 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2012 Generally speaking I've had a great deal of success with Fox Transfers. I've lined out a number of locos using their BR mixed traffic lining and found the decals easy to apply and the finished results excellent. Recent sheets as Butler Henderson has mentioned suggest putting a drop of washing up liquid in the water, but i've still used just water with no ill effects. As others have said it may be down to age related transfers but for lining i know which company I'd chose after giving up with HMRS lining. That said, the general HMRS sheets are brilliant to use and offer a great deal the Fox range does not offer. Cheers, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If your water-slide transfers are breaking up, this may be down to a print registration problem or accident. (I expect an 'accident' rate of about 1 in 3, where I'm at fault for messing up.) Check to see if there's a shiny shadow image of the transfer above/below/left/right of the printing, as that is the symptom of a printing glitch. Fox Transfers are working to very fine tolerances. Occasionally -- very occasionally -- they print the ink slightly off the side of the transparent backing material and, because this transparent backing is hard to see, it sometimes slips past their quality assurance. When this happens, it means the ink is unsupported and part of the image (that unsupported ink) will then always break up as the transfer is applied. The other thing to remember is that to give us the best possible image on the finished model, that transparent backing web has to be extremely thin (read 'delicate') and very close in size to the image being printed (read 'extremely fine printing tolerances'); else we'd be back to the old style waterslide transfers with a wide expanse of what looked like varnish around them. I mostly work in N scale, and I expect a failure rate of 1 in 3 in application of Fox Transfers' water-slide transfers. They are very finely made and delicate; and I'm happy to pay the price in occasional breakups of totems and lettering. If you're "lining", expect a higher failure rate, and try to always 'float' the line lengthways in lots of water with a dab of washing up liquid as a 'wetting agent'! A little trick that sometimes works in 'lining', is to use very thin (thickness) masking tape. (The stuff I use is from Tamiya.) This will allow you to 'float' the line alongside the masking tape, giving a straight edge and minimizing the amount of tugging. Start with the line below and slightly to one side. Then draw it, backwards and forwards, until it is pulled and floated alongside the masking tape. Once the line is floated to where you want it, use the edge of a paper tissue, or the capillary action of a blotted dry paintbrush, to pull the water away from the transfer, being careful that the brush or tissue doesn't actually contact the transfer. (If this results in the transfer line moving, use the paintbrush to put back the water and try again. You should do this in short sections, using natural breaks like carriage doors to assist in hiding breaks in the shortened the strip, and allow each section to thoroughly dry before attempting the next. It's a long, meticulous, and frustrating job. Rick a.k.a. Robert Bruce, "if at first ... try, try again (until you scream)". I hate lining! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only-Me Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I now use precision labels / Decals after issues with FOX as you chaps have already mentioned.. They seem to be a bit more user friendly.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted November 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 17, 2015 I'm at work now, but I'm sure the last packet of Fox transfers said they now use a new formula and recommend adding a drop of washing up liquid to the water. They worked fine for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexAshton Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The Fox transfers, while very good are by their fineness bound to be a bit fragile. Try adding a drop of washing up liquid to the water and only soak them for the bare minimum time. Don't try to put long lengths on in one go. Cut them down to approx 1" lengths before soaking. They're a lot easier to join up invisibly on the model than you might think as the washing up liquid allows them to slide around a lot easier. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Interestingly I 've recently lined out three v2's. I had no trouble except with the lining on the footplate. A very thin transfer that I decided to leav off... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Speaking of 'soaking' the water-slide transfers, I prefer to only wet the back of the paper, rather than soaking the whole sheet. This is to ensure that I don't wash away the glue. Interestingly, Fox Transfers' very detailed instruction sheet advises that, if you need to add more water -- to assist in moving the transfer into the exact right position -- you should first apply the water to the top of a spare bit of backing paper. Apparently, this will pick up more glue, rather than further diluting what is on the transfer. I thought this an excellent tip. Anyone got any more tips? I'm especially interested in thoughts on "Decal Fix", as I get varying results -- from truly fantastic to a complete mess up -- so would appreciate any hints and tips, please. Happy modelling, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d600 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Hi I have had the same trouble with slaters,parkside and peco o gauge decals they ruin the model I have even tried decal fix but some still come off or break away im glad its not just me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted November 20, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2015 Me too, Cornerstone building decals. I even tried printing my own but they too went the same way. I must be heavy handed, I have to find a fix though or the layout will be without signage. First world problems.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I've put quite lot of Fox transfers on recently, including some from sheets I've had in store for several years. All have behaved well enough, except for one sheet where the transfers were very fragile. That sheet also had a registration problem in the colour layers, so I think Morning Star is right about the registration issue. I do find that I need to varnish over the transfers immediately after applying. Old-style Fox transfers seemed to survive well unvarnished; recent ones come off if I look at them too hard. I do one face of a vehicle, spray varnish on that and do the next after the varnish has set. It takes longer, but avoids some disasters. The curling effect I only see with Fox transfers if I've soaked them too long. However, Slaters transfers curl very easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Daddyman Posted November 20, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2015 I've had the same trouble with Fox and like one or two other posters, don't use them if I can help it. I've had the following break up: BR late crests, yellow cabside stripes, BR cabside numbers, and Scottish 1980s depot logos. I spoke to Fox about the breaking up, and he said it was not due to the way they'd been kept, or age. I had it happen with old and new transfers, and both happen and not happen with identical and bran-new packs of the same transfers. There is no rhyme or reason and Fox himself was at a loss to explain it. As to applying Fox transfers, when in good health they take any amount of abuse. I've never bothered to protect the gum - and in fact in most situations you can't, as you need plenty of liquid to be able to get the transfer off the backing without the edge curling under, and to move it along the model without the same happening. The washing up thing in Fox's latest instructions is a solution in search of a problem. I soak them in Transfix and then add liberal amounts of the same to the model to aid in positioning. Even with this abuse, and without a protective coat of varnish, I've never had a transfer lift. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 .Washing-up liquid is a 'wetting agent'. It makes the water wetter; or, to put it another way, it makes the water more slippery. I think the technical term is that it's a surfactant; defined as "a substance which tends to reduce the surface tension of a liquid in which it is dissolved". Adding a single drop of washing-up liquid to water is an old trick used by photographs when developing film. It ensures that the water used to wash away the developer and fixing chemicals runs off the plastic of negatives and transparencies without leaving water marks. Probably best to stick to very basic washing-up liquid, as the 'advanced' formulas have all sorts of additives that might do strange things to the transfer or paint/varnish. Soft Rinse, like Lenor, is mostly surfactant, and contains no detergent. So, if you want your models to smell nice, and be soft to the touch...* By the way, Fox Transfers' instruction sheet says the edges will curl up, and what to do about it. They also recommend applying varnish after the transfer is thoroughly dry. Rick *Paradoxically, surfactants are also water repellents. Which is why you shouldn't use soft rinse when washing bath towels, else they won't be very absorbent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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