Cwm Bach - A South Wales Branch Line

[Western Star]

 The underframes are pretty common to all, but with so many body permutations,

Not so Dan.

 

Apart from long and short underframes...  (rather obvious difference)

 

apart from those with handbrakes and those without...  (battery boxes in different positions for brake vehicles, extra underframe stuff for the handbrake linkages)

 

not forgetting those built with non-equalised brake gear on the bogies versus those built with equalised brake gear...  (those built with equalised brake gear have alterations to the central trusses to allow the pull-rods to go over the top of the bogie frames together with changes to the arrangement of the brake cross-shafts)

 

and then there are those MK.1s which had dual brake...  and dual heat...  both of which have an impact on the underframe.

 

BR Mk.1s are anything but simple.

[Osgood]

........and on another slightly off track subject any update on this from the Minerva website>>>

 

Next the good news

We have been working on our next project for some months now, and have approved decorated samples already. We will announce our next models at the Gauge 0 Guild show at Telford on the 2^nd September, but you won’t have to wait months for them. It will be merely weeks as we expect to have the first of the new models on sale in October this year.

Sorry we can’t say more yet, but we really want it to be a surprise…..

 Reading through the vagueness I think it will be a choice of wagons not a loco......

 

 

 

Oh no - no, no, PLEASE NO.........

 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I don't really want to go off message here, but how much would buyers be prepared to pay for a good RTR coach?

£150-200?

I guess the comparison points are Hatton/Heljan & JLTRT?

Best

Simon

Hi Simon,

 

I would say the best price points - even better if you live in the USA - are MTH Period III Staniers, £125-140 ea (BUT SANS FLUSH GLAZING, which is a slightly disappointing issue as the prototypes were noted for their smooth, almost flawless flanks). So if MTH can do coaches for those prices, then thats the bench-mark?.....

Well using your loco price and quality as a guide I find you are tip top in quality and somewhat cheaper in price for similar types of locos from other manufacturers.

Therefore I expect you to be able to apply the same manufacturing magic to any coaches built with a similar outcome on quality and price so in the range of £120 - £180 is my guestimate.

 

........and on another slightly off track subject any update on this from the Minerva website>>>

 

Next the good news

We have been working on our next project for some months now, and have approved decorated samples already. We will announce our next models at the Gauge 0 Guild show at Telford on the 2^nd September, but you won’t have to wait months for them. It will be merely weeks as we expect to have the first of the new models on sale in October this year.

Sorry we can’t say more yet, but we really want it to be a surprise…..

Reading through the vagueness I think it will be a choice of wagons not a loco.

 

Digital money system readied for Telford

Hi Barnaby, agreed re the coach pricing, ie sub £200.00. The most popular being BR MK1s, which in RTR, in terms of accuracy, have missed out by a country mile in some cases.

 

As to what would be profitable for Chris relative to numbers of potential customers, vs needs/wants, ability and means to pay etc etc maybe a different question.

 

I see Darsted are doing MK1s at £180, theyre supposed to be finescale, but from iffy photos the underframes and bogies dont look quite right.....

 

One manufacturer has done G1 MK1s quite nicely for 7mm RTR money.

 

Then theres MK1 suburbans et al., perhaps some of the more popular Southern types to go with Dapol Terriers....the list is endless.

 

Yet the price point of £130-£190 per coach 'feels' about right.

 

Hope that helps.

 

ATVB to all,

 

CME.

Edited August 20, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[3 link]

 

I have to agree with CME, the rtr market is crying out for a good representation of the BR mk1's. I would certainly be interested and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

And think of all those different liveries, wow now there's a thought.

 

Martyn.

[Dan Randall]

Not so Dan.

 

Apart from long and short underframes... (rather obvious difference)

 

apart from those with handbrakes and those without... (battery boxes in different positions for brake vehicles, extra underframe stuff for the handbrake linkages)

 

not forgetting those built with non-equalised brake gear on the bogies versus those built with equalised brake gear... (those built with equalised brake gear have alterations to the central trusses to allow the pull-rods to go over the top of the bogie frames together with changes to the arrangement of the brake cross-shafts)

 

and then there are those MK.1s which had dual brake... and dual heat... both of which have an impact on the underframe.

 

BR Mk.1s are anything but simple.

Hi Graham

 

Perhaps I could have worded my statement "the underframes are pretty common to all" a little better!

 

What I mean is, from a distance, they all look pretty much alike, even though some of the bits and bobs below the solebars can assume different positions, depending on the actual body and bogie type.

 

I would be more than happy with a generic (but accurate for at least some body variants), underframe (long and short please Mr Manufacturer!), if the bodywork was accurate and fully finished in whatever livery I chose to purchase. Time is one commodity that always seems to be in short supply and the thought of building umpteen coaches to the same standard as the loco pulling them, is a daunting prospect. If the various underframe components were just plugged in to the underframe moulding, it would allow the purchaser to move, remove or even replace components as they see fit, in order to better correspond to the prototype's bodywork. It would also be a satisfying exercise in modelling, that could be achieved in a few hours per coach, which is a whole lot less time than building and painting an entire rake of coach kits.

 

 

Regards

 

Dan

 

(With apologies to Chris for the thread hijack!).

Edited August 19, 2017 by Dan Randall

[N15class]

And all assume that everyone models GWR/WR

[Simond]

Pete,

 

What matters is that the two Chris model GWR/WR!

 

 

Best

Simon

[81A Oldoak]

Pete,

 

What matters is that the two Chris model GWR/WR!

 

 

Best

Simon

 

 

What matters more is what will sell.

[Simond]

My guess is that there might be a market for matching coaches, if the panniers sell....

 

(And I doubt there's any risk there!)

 

Best

Simon

[coachmann]

And all assume that everyone models GWR/WR

I suspect I started the ball rolling in post # 1635 when I said the downer for 0 gauge was having to build all the coaches. So when Chris asked what people would be prepared to pay for a RTR coach,  my response was entirely predictable seeing as I model the Western Region of BR.

[N15class]

I suspect I started the ball rolling in post # 1635 when I said the downer for 0 gauge was having to build all the coaches. So when Chris asked what people would be prepared to pay for a RTR coach,  my response was entirely predictable seeing as I model the Western Region of BR.

It sort of takes me back to my childhood with 00 RTR being or seemed to be biased towards GWR, and large express engines.

 

Mind you it is still nice that we are getting better some lovely RTR stuff in 0 theses days. Might be a bit of a wait for LSWR based stock. As it was in 4mm.

 

Chris am looking forward to what you will announce at Telford. Would like to be there but the railway god's were against it.

[Johng]

I would be attracted to post 1920 GWR plastic RTR corridor coaches costing £200 to £250 each, but then who wouldn't?  

 

A good start was made with a B-set and an auto coach, so I imagine people want Collett's bow-enders with 'G' or recessed door handles and 1930's low waist stock......The kind of vehicles found all across the post-grouping GWR and Western Region. 

 

Whoever much people fancy them, 6-wheel coaches, clerestores and toplight coaches were not typical by the mid 1930's. This market therefore is too small.

 

Just some lateral thoughts regarding the cost of coaches, the reasoning around £200 a coaches surely shows that 'conditioning' or perceived value based on price in O gauge still persists, no insult intended. The superb 0 gauge RTR loco's that are currently on offer relate very well with their 00 counterparts at roughly double, using that simplistic concept the RTR plastic coaches at £200 a piece are overpriced and by some, use the 'double the 00 price' is more the mark, after all, artisan, hand built brass, fully painted are available from a reputable supplier for £250! Just thoughts.

[coachmann]

Just some lateral thoughts regarding the cost of coaches, the reasoning around £200 a coaches surely shows that 'conditioning' or perceived value based on price in O gauge still persists, no insult intended. The superb 0 gauge RTR loco's that are currently on offer relate very well with their 00 counterparts at roughly double, using that simplistic concept the RTR plastic coaches at £200 a piece are overpriced and by some, use the 'double the 00 price' is more the mark, after all, artisan, hand built brass, fully painted are available from a reputable supplier for £250! Just thoughts.

I don't know of this builder but I do know he ain't making a living at £250 a coach, but of course it is up to him. In my life I have been well acquainted with folk such a solicitors and accountants who tried to beat me down on price "because it is only a hobby"! In fact if I had a pound for every Gauge 0 enquirer who wanted 7mm painting & lining for 4mm prices, I would be a rich man. 

 

The people who think 0 gauge is over priced should buy a kit, build and paint it. Then apply the hourly rate they earn in their day job. In otherwords, a reality-check!

 

I was cautious when mentioning a price for RTR 0 gauge coaches because i do not want to insult the manufacturers in this scale. They must charge whatever it takes at the end of the day and not let themselves be beaten down by folk who think everyone owes them a hobby.  

Edited August 20, 2017 by coachmann

[Jintyman]

Just some lateral thoughts regarding the cost of coaches, the reasoning around £200 a coaches surely shows that 'conditioning' or perceived value based on price in O gauge still persists, no insult intended. The superb 0 gauge RTR loco's that are currently on offer relate very well with their 00 counterparts at roughly double, using that simplistic concept the RTR plastic coaches at £200 a piece are overpriced and by some, use the 'double the 00 price' is more the mark, after all, artisan, hand built brass, fully painted are available from a reputable supplier for £250! Just thoughts.

 

 

I toatlly agree with Coachman above, building and finishing a 7mm coach takes considerably longer and is very labour intensive.

 

Double has been quoted above, but lets look at the cost of a OO gauge Prairie from Bachmann, their newest release, sitting at £109.95.

 

The equivalent model in 7mm from Lionheart is RRP £650.00, and available from some stockists for mid £400's

This makes the Lionheart loco 5.96 times as expensive as its equivalent in 4mm.

 

I've chosen the Prairie as an example as it isn't a simple 0-6-0 locomotive, and it isn't a Express passenger loco either, and Heljan's 2-6-2T will be here soon and that is well over the £500 mark as well.

So really the prices are reflective of the volume that the scale offers, and are reasonable in relation to that as well.

There are quotes that 7mm is 7 times the actual volume of the equivalent in 4mm, therefore, from a volume perspective, the prices are less than a 4mm equivalent, but only if you take the volume difference as being 7.

If this is so then  a Bachmann Mk1 coach is currently RRP   £39.95, therefore by the calculation above (Multiply by 5.96), it's 7mm price should be circa £238.00 ish!

 

I hope I've written the above where my ramblings are understood, and they are my own opinions, but derived from fact.

 

Sorry for the continued  Chris, I will try to resist in future.

 

Jinty

Edited August 20, 2017 by Jintyman

[Simond]

The surface area of a 7mm model is the scales squared; 49/16 = 3 (approx) and the volume (and therefore weight all other things being in proportion) is the scales cubed; 343/64 = 5.4.

 

You might therefore expect it takes 5 times as much plastic and 3 times as much paint, but there is also amortisation to consider: if I invest in 4mm scale, I might expect to sell "thousands" of any given model, whereas in 7mm it may be more like "hundreds", so if I were constrained to the same tooling, (which may be £50k or more for a long life high volume tool set), I'd have to pay a share of this from every model I sold. Happily, there are cheaper routes to tooling, but these have limited life.

 

And there's design, packaging, manuals, insurance, freight to be considered.

 

Somewhere in this conundrum lies a balancing point where the customer gets something desirable at an attractive price, and the manufacturer makes sufficient profit to be worth investing/risking his money.

 

Not sure if this helps...

 

Best

Simon

[Miss Prism]

Happily, there are cheaper routes to tooling, but these have limited life.

 

And a limited life is probably sufficient and more appropriate for the small-volume 7mm market. A 50k plastic tool set is clearly unviable. JLTRT polyurethane-bodied Toplights are c £250, are they are still kits requiring considerable subsequent build time. The economics of 7mm RTR coach production are fraught and bewildering. Something with topical wow factor, like a GWR Steam Railmotor, might provide a return at around the £1200 mark?

[Miss Prism]

By an extraordinary coincidence, the following (unsolicited, and anonymised) has just popped into my e-mail inbox:

 

"We would like to produce finescale models of the toplight coaches in O Gauge in all their variations 1922, 1927, 1945, 1948, 1955, 1958 and 1963. Now we are looking for someone who can lead us the way as to where to get the drawings and who can advice us on the artwork. Looking forward to hear from you,"

 

Hmmm. That should keep me busy today. I will need to strike the correct realistic tone in response. There's no peace for the wicked...

 

 

[Simond]

Most interesting.

 

Given that the JLTRT coach kits provide most of what's needed to do that, (and they do take some building, and yet more painting), it's a curious choice. I look forward to hearing more in due course!

 

Best

Simon

[CME and Bottlewasher]

What matters more is what will sell.

Hence my previous comments Chris. Also one has to, IMHHO, be able to tap into the current market that Dapol et al are aiming for-as long as there is a reasonable profit to keep you guys afloat.....

My guess is that there might be a market for matching coaches, if the panniers sell....

(And I doubt there's any risk there!)

Best

Simon

.....agreed.......

Just some lateral thoughts regarding the cost of coaches, the reasoning around £200 a coaches surely shows that 'conditioning' or perceived value based on price in O gauge still persists, no insult intended. The superb 0 gauge RTR loco's that are currently on offer relate very well with their 00 counterparts at roughly double, using that simplistic concept the RTR plastic coaches at £200 a piece are overpriced and by some, use the 'double the 00 price' is more the mark, after all, artisan, hand built brass, fully painted are available from a reputable supplier for £250! Just thoughts.

Coaches built from kits are oft as labour intensive as a steam outline loco, RTR? Look to the MTH range of LMS coaches, correct shape (apart from lacking flush glazing), simplified underframes, weird interpretation of LMS riveted 9' 0" bogies, but overall remarkable value.....

I don't know of this builder but I do know he ain't making a living at £250 a coach, but of course it is up to him. In my life I have been well acquainted with folk such a solicitors and accountants who tried to beat me down on price "because it is only a hobby"! In fact if I had a pound for every Gauge 0 enquirer who wanted 7mm painting & lining for 4mm prices, I would be a rich man.

 

The people who think 0 gauge is over priced should buy a kit, build and paint it. Then apply the hourly rate they earn in their day job. In otherwords, a reality-check!

 

I was cautious when mentioning a price for RTR 0 gauge coaches because i do not want to insult the manufacturers in this scale. They must charge whatever it takes at the end of the day and not let themselves be beaten down by folk who think everyone owes them a hobby.

 

Agreed coachman, railway modelling is akin to the watchmakers art and craft, yet said 'professional men' (of which I was once one, but prior to I was a blue collar engineering bod, so had some common sense) would be willing pay £100s per hr for a mere 'fitter' to do an oil and filter change on their Porche Boxster, yet not pay a similar rate for a craftsman to create a scale model....idiots, or is it something else which drives their commentry, ie leverage of an individual trying to make an honest crust, while they suscribe to the money is like cork theory.....it always, apparently easily, floats to the top....etc etc?

By an extraordinary coincidence, the following (unsolicited, and anonymised) has just popped into my e-mail inbox:

 

 

 

 

 

"We would like to produce finescale models of the toplight coaches in O Gauge in all their variations 1922, 1927, 1945, 1948, 1955, 1958 and 1963. Now we are looking for someone who can lead us the way as to where to get the drawings and who can advice us on the artwork. Looking forward to hear from you,"

Hmmm. That should keep me busy today. I will need to strike the correct realistic tone in response. There's no peace for the wicked...

Im intrigued too MP.....a manufacturer seeking advice?? Yet not already a SME, or are they merely covering all bases/being diligent? Skinley drawings et al (which may or may not be merely statements of intent??) are all held in one place, there is a plethora of good books too. So why, if not too bold a question, may I ask, has this mysterious third party come to you? My apologies, you must forgive me, as I am ignorant-and in the dark-as to your name and thus role in such an endeavour.

 

Kind regards to all,

 

CME

Edited August 20, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[81A Oldoak]

There is much I could say, but I feel constrained by professional etiquette and good manners. So,  back to what this is really all about, which is building and running model railways. Here are some previously seen photos of Cwm Bach. Work progresses on Tonfanau Camp and there will be some more to read about that shortly.

 

 

[coachmann]

You are good at weathering, but the weathering on that 56XX 0-6-2T is particularly well done and shows observation.

[Miss Prism]

So why, if not too bold a question, may I ask, has this mysterious third party come to you? My apologies, you must forgive me, as I am ignorant-and in the dark-as to your name and thus role in such an endeavour.

 

As the current holder of the reins at gwr.org.uk, I am perceived to be a fount of all knowledge on matters Great Western. (I couldn't possibly comment of course!)

 

But let's get back on topic, and admire Chris' weathering.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

As the current holder of the reins at gwr.org.uk, I am perceived to be a fount of all knowledge on matters Great Western. (I couldn't possibly comment of course!)

 

But let's get back on topic, and admire Chris' weathering.

Thanks.....agreed, back on topic, I hope that all of our comments have been food for thought and thus helpful to Chris though.

 

Kindest regards,

 

CME.

[coachmann]

Imagine these RTR in 0 gauge behind your Pannier...

Edited August 20, 2017 by coachmann

[81A Oldoak]

Imagine these RTR in 0 gauge behind your Pannier...

WEB GWR bow endcoaches.jpg

I suspect my rake of three Collett coaches will end up behind one of our 8750/57XX Panniers. They were made by Heather Kaye from JLTRT kits and the paint finish is superb, far better than anything I could achieve and worth the many pounds I paid for them.  From experience, I believe it is possible to hide on steam locomotives a multitude of constructional and painting sins under judiciously applied weathering, but with coaches it's near impossible.