Hornby New Trade Terms - What will it mean for the customer

[Andy Hayter]

And even if he does, within one hour?

 

In my professional life there were many occasions when I could not respond that quickly

[Removed a/c]

Well this certainly is a poke in the eye!! 

 

Oh well there are other manufacturers to purchase from and I am willing to wait for them to make what I would need. 

 

 

 

The ironic thing is this comes at a time when Hornby doesn't have much to sell anyway   

[aussiebrfan]

And even if he does, within one hour?

 

In my professional life there were many occasions when I could not respond that quickly

 

I agree with you, what I meant was I'm sure he gets many emails that he doesnt even read let alone respond to, he should be applauded for doing so. More than just doing his job I'd say.

[Removed a/c]

I am not clear how Hornby would know if goods were sold overseas. If I ring a UK retailer and we do a deal, only he and I know he's posted something to Froggy France.

Hornby police of course in 1:1 scale !! and they will be checking on all of those train packs as well. This of course will add an additional 35% to the cost of a model     

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

My background, albeit many years ago, was in hire purchase and the contract was everything. There was no contract per se between dealer and us the supplier of the credit.

 

Much has been made of Hornby introducing terms of contract but not one of the posters has suggested that there are any written penalties for not complying although I have only speed read page 1 and 5 of the thread.

 

It is possible that Hornby are attempting to introduce some form of control over there franchises but by doing so they expose themselves to a legal challenge at a later date unless it is made very clear at the outset why these changes are necessary and who, if anybody, they are aimed at.

 

It is all very well to say that 'permission is granted to do X and Y' within the franchise but you have to balance that with a reasoned argument as to what happens if that 'permission' is ignored. Otherwise Hornby expose themselves to some High Court Judge picking their contract over, line by line and making Hornby justify every word and comma with a dealer claimant barrister on pro bono ( Hornby would have to pay for a defence barrister ).

 

Did I not read somewhere on another thread ages ago that Hornby were far too keen to open an account with any Tom Dick or Harry much to the local dealer's chagrin?

[Mike at C&M]

The contract has numerous references to "default event". It also states that in the case of a default event that "the Company [Hornby] reserves the right to take measures it thinks appropriate". So Hornby have covered themselves for penalties within the terms and conditions.

[Ian Abel]

I am not clear how Hornby would know if goods were sold overseas. If I ring a UK retailer and we do a deal, only he and I know he's posted something to Froggy France.

Agree and I'd like to add;

 

RANT ON - please avoid this entire diatribe if you are the least bit sensitive

 

1) If/when I buy from Hattons/Rails, I use the EXACT SAME CREDIT CARD whether I'm standing in the shop because I'm over there visiting or I send an internet order! That card is registered in the US and I'm BILLED in the US, so are they (Hornby) going to make it illegal for shops to sell to customers that use a non-UK issued cards, will they require stores to accept CASH ONLY from non-UK residents (THERE is the need for your UK ID CARD!!)?? I'd like to see them try and get shops to check the actual origin of the CC before allowing the sale! HAR HAR HAR!!!

 

2) If I'm standing there, and after the sale is made, I say "oh, by the way, here's 15 quid, be a good chap and mail it to this address please, I don't want to carry it...", who the HELL are Hornby or any other manufacturer to tell me or the shop keeper they can't post the bloddy thing to me, even if it's overseas!

 

Sorry - just a little steamed about this as are many ex-pat/UK modellers abroad I see...

 

Same goes for me buying an item from ANY other store and carry it back, if I buy it and it doesn't work when I get back here, I'll likely contact the seller - not taking a crack at the seller who indicated they won't sell to the US, but - does this mean that suddenly, just because I was daft enough to buy something in the UK but live somewhere else, I'm up the proverbial !@#% creek without a paddle?? I Don't think so - unless the seller is at the bottom of the scale in customer service/support.

 

So, Hornby or anyone else needs to take a hard look at this sort of lunacy before they go off half-cocked and issue broad dictates to essentially their customer base. It's not the stores that are affected in the final analysis as much as the,um, wait for it, CUSTOMERS of the products, DUH!!

 

I KNOW, as many have pointed out, that currently Hornby seem to have b*****er ALL in the way of new and intersting products that can actually be PURCHASED RIGHT NOW, due to the myriad problems they seem to be experiencing, but doesn't this just add icing to the cake! Wonder what "genius" though this one up - there are certain places in 21st. century commerce where this sort of thinking would have found the person who concieved it the front door in a hurry, with a swift kick up the arse as they left, for good measure...

 

In closing, again as already pointed out, there is a Hornby America (useless is an understatement), but there is ZERO ability to buy Hornby Railway stuff from anyone I've yet to find in the Continental US, at least not if you;

i) Actually want to find something in stock anywhere

ii) Expect the store even knows who "Hornby" are when you call them, and have ANY clue what "OO" is and what the current product line consists of

iii) Want to pay a "fair", let's say even RETAIL LIST price for it, rather than the extortionate markup US retailers add to ANY non-US product - for an example just look at all the US PECO dealers/vendors if you want a real scare. Try deciding to pay $20-25 PLUS SHIPPING  for one stinking point in the US market - no thanks

iv) lastly - ALL service/maintenance items are re-directed back to Margate ANYWAY, so there is zero after sales support/service from the US entity

 

RANT OFF - phew, holy !@#$%, need a drink  

[The Stationmaster]

 

Did I not read somewhere on another thread ages ago that Hornby were far too keen to open an account with any Tom Dick or Harry much to the local dealer's chagrin?

 

I do hope not because they seem to have worked fairly hard in the past to prove the opposite was the case.  Hornby have long had a policy of not supplying goods to people who do not have retail premises and should anyone get to hear of this apparently being broken a word to their rep usually brings results.

 

It seems however that the same does not apply to their toy trade wholesaler who are apparently happy to supply anybody who is able to pay for the goods.  Thus you find folk operating from their front room, garden shed, or garage or whatever in direct competition with properly established retailers and offering far lower prices because they have no overheads.  I would personally have hoped that if Hornby have any interest in their retailers they would be stamping on these outlets which are hardly competing on a level playing field.

[Nimbus]

I do hope not because they seem to have worked fairly hard in the past to prove the opposite was the case.  Hornby have long had a policy of not supplying goods to people who do not have retail premises and should anyone get to hear of this apparently being broken a word to their rep usually brings results.

 

It seems however that the same does not apply to their toy trade wholesaler who are apparently happy to supply anybody who is able to pay for the goods.  Thus you find folk operating from their front room, garden shed, or garage or whatever in direct competition with properly established retailers and offering far lower prices because they have no overheads.  I would personally have hoped that if Hornby have any interest in their retailers they would be stamping on these outlets which are hardly competing on a level playing field.

 

I wonder how this might affect preservation groups who run a small 'shop', but have a significant income via web sales? By way of contrast, I've had alerts from the CFPS over the last few days proudly announcing that they have been given Hornby's main competitor's blessing to sell their range, kicking off with the new-tool Class 40s.

 

The Nim.

[frobisher]

I remain of the view that for EU-based traders trading within the EU the stipulation of "Retailers are granted permission to only sell within the territories classified as the United Kingdom and Eire" is an illegal statement.

It's perfectly legal within the context of the agreement between Wholesaler and Retailer because it pertains only to the Retailer's ability to be supplied by the Wholesaler. The Retailer is within their (legal) rights to sell stock to pretty much anyone they want to, but selling to certain sectors of the buying public will lead to the Wholesaler ceasing supply.

[Ozexpatriate]

Well, on the surface that comes as a bit of a shock I must say.

 

At first glance this looks like a way to divert all non-domestic sales to Hornby.com.

At first glance it looks like an attempt to protect their distributers in other parts of the world. Presumably the retailers in the UK and Eire are supplied through one distributer (Hornby itself?). There is an exclusive distributer in Canada who supplies the retail trade here, but they tend to get undercut by Hattons and the like selling direct to Canada.

I wouldn't disagree with you Adrian in the context of countries like Canada, New Zealand and Australia where Hornby retailers exist.

 

If you look at the Hornby America website, you will see that it is clear that the only line of model railway products they carry in the US is Rivarossi H0.

 

You simply cannot buy a Hornby model railway item in the US.

 

I hold out in the hope that many of us (including me) have misinterpreted the T&Cs on first reading and that suggestions (by Rob, Andrew and others) that so long as the transaction happens in Britain it doesn't matter where the customer lives and that this T&C is intended to be preventative of the amazon.com model where a multinational internet seller can do business in multiple countries under multiple currencies and tax laws

[PhilH]

 

and that this T&C is intended to be preventative of the amazon.com model where a multinational internet seller can do business in multiple countries under multiple currencies tax laws

 

 

I'm not too sure I see much wrong with that model.

[stewartingram]

I'm in a complete muddle even trying to understand what all this is about. So to put a personal perspective on it, how will it affect me?

 

1) I can still buy the Hornby items I want from somewhere, but the price may not be as well discounted as before, for various reasons, But we know we are in for price rises eminating from the China end anyway, so tbh I'm not unhappy in this scenario.

2) Supply chain becomes strangled, as Hornby are not getting as many trade orders and cut back on production. Hence the availabity is much more limited to me. Result, I may miss out on getting a model.

3) Trade orders dry up leaving Hornby in a precarious financial position, worst case leading to bankruptcy. Result to me, no new models but at least I don't miss out on a wanted item if it is never offered!

 

I don't buy in to the idea of a Hornby boycott to teach them a lesson. It is a hobby, Hornby is a source material for my modelling. If they announce a forthcoming Claud or J15, they are on my shopping list. If a P2 or Star is announced, they are not. No Claud, no sale, there is no alternative to turn to, unless Bachhy/etc produce one. If it was baked beans from Tesco though, I could turn to Morrisons/Lidl or whoever. I do feel however that a lot most of what has been written on this thread so far is pure speculation (anti-froth?) due to uncertainty of the unknown. Dealers (in particular the big ones if they find they are adversly affected), will be making loud noises with Hornby. In reality, we as punters can do nothing but wait. Time as always is a healer. Be patient.

 

Stewart

[Ozexpatriate]

I'm in a complete muddle even trying to understand what all this is about. So to put a personal perspective on it, how will it affect me?

Stewart,

 

the only people for whom this has any bearing are the retailers who currently sell to people who live outside the UK and Eire and those people who live outside the UK and Eire who want to buy Hornby model railway items.

 

For everyone else it is business as usual.

 

Hopefully it will be business as usual for everyone except for enterprises like Amazon.com and the wording has just made us skittish. As you suggest, we shall have to wait until the retailers can ask Hornby specific follow-up questions.  It was interesting to see people on the Airfix forums respond the same way that many people did here.

 

In hindsight, we all should have waited until the retailers could ask the right questions before responding. In that regard, I'm as guilty of partially informed froth as anyone.

[APOLLO]

For everyone else it is business as usual.

 

 

Except the prices have nearly doubled (Hattons - Railroad 9F £56 - Railroad Crosti 9F £110+).

 

It won't be "Business as usual" from me as far as Hornby is concerned.

 

Brit15

[Hilux5972]

So what will this do to preorders that I have for several models? Will I now have to drive 3 hours to my local model shop and pay double what I would pay to buy from hattons?

[Vistisen]

Stewart,

 

the only people for whom this has any bearing are the retailers who currently sell to people who live outside the UK and Eire and those people who live outside the UK and Eire who want to buy Hornby model railway items.

 

For everyone else it is business as usual.

 

Hopefully it will be business as usual for everyone except for enterprises like Amazon.com and the wording has just made us skittish. As you suggest, we shall have to wait until the retailers can ask Hornby specific follow-up questions.  It was interesting to see people on the Airfix forums respond the same way that many people did here.

 

In hindsight, we all should have waited until the retailers could ask the right questions before responding. In that regard, I'm as guilty of partially informed froth as anyone.

As an Ex pat living in Denmark, I'm one of those hit hard by this, No wait no I'm not. I'll just buy from Bachmann, Heljan, Dapol, etc . It's Hornby that will be hit hard. There are more models that I want than I can afford to buy anyway, The decisions just got easier.

[frobisher]

Sorry but I beg to differ. The wording seems to me to be an authorisation (and as such an acknowledgement of the current situation) to the retailer to sell Hornby products as a retailer based in the UK or Eire. The T&C are also saying that the retailer would be going outside this authorisation is he set up shop outside the UK or Eire. Personally I do not think the specific wording precludes sales to customers overseas, but I do agree that aspect could be open to (mis)interpretation.

 

If that was the intent (and I'm not saying it isn't by the way), the wording is very bad indeed, and should be a largely redundant clause as well within a document targeted as it was.

 

The clause is written in terms of enabling behaviour (giving permission), not requiring behaviour.  The language is wrong for the interpretation you present, not helped by the legally woolly status of where sales happen.

 

Either way, it is inadequately phrased to fully convey the intended meaning.

[Andy Hayter]

Seems as if some have missed my previous post.  So the relevant part repeated:

 

Dear Andy,

 

Well noted.  I will pass this on.  I am not sure we can legally restrict trade within Europe as I thought that was what the EU was all about!

 

Regards

 

 

Kind regards

 

Simon Kohler

Hornby Marketing Manager

 

 

This the comment from Hornby itself.

 

My best guess - having seen other legal departments at work - someone has copy pasted a concessionaires' contract and made some adjustments - unfortunately not deleting the territories clause, which is not applicable to merchants/retailers.

[DJM Dave]

But wouldn't this have been signed off on by those in charge at Hornby?

 

Surely Hornby's legal department (if they have one) wouldn't have just arbitrarily decided to make these T&C up and send them out without authority. Would they?

 

I'm confused as all here to be honest.

[Ozexpatriate]

Seems as if some have missed my previous post.

Andy, I don't live in Europe.

 

But as several people have posted, many of us have jumped to a conclusion, and we need to wait until the retailers can ask Hornby specific questions.

[Miss Prism]

But wouldn't this have been signed off on by those in charge at Hornby?

 

Someone is in charge at Hornby?

[M.Riddell]

I think we may have a breakthrough:

 

Quoting Vincewb of Modelsforsale.com over on Britmodeller:

 

"Just had a call from Hornby saying this applies to "wholesalers" only. and we mis-read a broad statement.

 

Word for word Quote from their new Trading Terms.

 

"A requirement  that Retailers limit their resale of Hornby Hobbies Ltd products to domestic sales in their respective countries ie UK & Eire"

 

Which bit did we mis-read then?"

 

For a little extra clarification, here's Mike, the webmaster:

 

"It applies to Wholesalers, not retailers, according to Vince's chat with Hornby."

 

So Wholesalers beware, but retailers are OK.

 

Someone made a boo boo when they made up the document........

 

Mike.

[Andy Y]

I am not clear how Hornby would know if goods were sold overseas. If I ring a UK retailer and we do a deal, only he and I know he's posted something to Froggy France.

But you don't strike me as the sort of door-handle who would run round the internet gloating that you've just got MassiveTrainWarehouse.com to send the stuff to you thus dobbing the retailer in.

[JCL]

Andy, I don't live in Europe.But as several people have posted, many of us have jumped to a conclusion, and we need to wait until the retailers can ask Hornby specific questions.

I had a phone call with one of the larger ones last night, and they are as confused and frustrated as us (talking here as an expat). The speculation was that it could be tied into a lack of product. I think they are looking forward to talking to Hornby soon to find out what's going on.

 

As a resident in Canada who used to use a couple of hobby shops when I lived in England, and who's local Hornby supplier is 3,700km away, I resent the possibility of not continuing to use British businesses for my purchases. I'm not up for a boycott, but if any company makes it more difficult to buy their products at a reasonable price, then I'm much less likely to spend time doing just that.

 

It's a shame that only a week or two after Hornby was getting some positive posts and goodwill about their 2014 proposed product range, and days after the Hornby mag interview, they appear to be marching backwards again. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of weeks.