RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 Why out of interst Is Eire a special case? Stephen Presumably because Eire is in the Eurozone and it would be impossible to restrict cross-border transactions between two Eurozone countries in the same way as those involving the UK and a Eurozone country. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 .... So stops say a retailer in the UK operating overseas, or in the Channel Islands (remember the crack down last year I think it was on imports of DVDs etc 'sold' in the channel Islands). Hang on a mo, that can't be right, especially in these days of t'internet. This week I've bought, via said web, items from the US, Hungary and Luxembourg - so the other side of the coin why shouldn't a UK retailer be allowed to sell stuff where he wants to. It's a worldwide marketplace now. In laymans terms If you are a shop, of any kind, Hornby cannot tell you to refuse to serve a customer because of where in the EU they are from (or race or religion whilst were at it), unless of course (and it does state) not for under a certain age. But they can tell you not to set up another shop in another country in which you sell goods delivered to the designated shop...... EU law is designed to protect sellers and buyers, buyer protection is in the form of freedom of movement to buy anywhere at will. Seller protection is designed to stop aggressive (and potentially monopolistic) domination by other resellers across different geographies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Hornby must have looked at the pain points from some retailers and possibly the shock of seeing model zone go down. Hornby and Bachmann for that matter, have a huge range (unlike the 1970s where a particular loco and number would be made year in and year out). Small retailers need crystal balls to guess which of those items will sell and which won,t and order 0, 1 or 5 respectively. Big retailers have the resources to order a minimum of 10 each and can go for a hundred, but still play the same guessing game. A lot of small players are going down, partly due to a vast range and limited resources to buy in mass plus other factors mentioned here. How do you level the playing field? Hornby seem to have gone for a legal point of view, which is not really a practical view and even fails to address the pain points while creating others. Let's looks at some other pain points: Hornby finds some items sell so well, they cannot meet supply and annoy there customers by having to cancel orders (2 bil) and canot provide replacements for faulty models equally other items don,t move and they sit on stock (4 VEP) They are equally unable to deliver a new model to everyone at the same time to the complete original order How would you solve that? When I have 150 million in the bank, I,ll buy them out and do something much more creative. Premium models will only be available to order from retailers/concessionaires specialised as model shops (I.e not toys r us, Hornbys own website and toy shops would sell only railroad items). The retailer would have two options and could do both. 1) classis place an order for X number, take delivery of them and distribute accordingly. 2) retailer would access a concessionaire only website, placing an order for an item on the customer,s behalf providing fall customer details etc. the retailer could state the price. For option 2, Hornby would send the item directly to the end customer and gaurantee the customer they will get one (replaced if faulty, lost in post etc) while paying the mark up to the retailer who sold it. I would annouce these items 2 or so years in advance around mid June, there would be at least a 6 month window to place orders ( this could be extended until production plan is finalised). Small retailers don,t need to guess, big retailers can still take on a stock reserve, the end customer knows they will get it. And Hornby can make a killing on very popular items. Everyone wins! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Accurascale Fran Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 Presumably because Eire is in the Eurozone and it would be impossible to restrict cross-border transactions between two Eurozone countries in the same way as those involving the UK and a Eurozone country. John Hornby have dealers here too and their Locos and rolling stock are readily available off the shelf. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 Presumably because Eire is in the Eurozone and it would be impossible to restrict cross-border transactions between two Eurozone countries in the same way as those involving the UK and a Eurozone country. John Perhaps they have noticed that "transferring" goods across the border has been one of the staple industries since partition. Just drive round the area where my son lives (a couple of miles inside the Republic) around midnight and you will see plenty of trade taking place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 Surely 'Retailers are granted permission to only sell within the territories classified as the United Kingdom and Eire".' is a completely different kettle of fish to 'But they can tell you not to set up another shop in another country in which you sell goods delivered to the designated shop......? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 Looking at the way Horrnby has been performing in recent years you'd think they would want to encourage more sales not restrict them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 If the customer hands over the cash on paypal in Luxembourg it's not ok. Spooky! That's almost what I've done tonight, ie paypal'd someone in Luxembourg for a product emanating from the US. I'd better give up on this conversation, the more I'm learning about the complexities of law, EU or otherwise, the less I'm understanding (as someone who treats the world as one big shop). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2014 Hi I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall when the unfortunate Hornby reps first broke this news to Hattons, Rails etc. I can't see those two bowing down to Hornby on this one. It is their livelyhood after all. This is where the big box shifters with their clout maybe just be the smaller retailers friend, by standing up for their freedom to trade with who they like and when they like. I personally feel sorry for the Hornby reps, they must be nervous wrecks as they will be due to make their first customer visits soon, knowing full well the flak they are going to receive. Why out of interst Is Eire a special case? Stephen In many cases Eire is bracketed in with the UK thanks to Northern Ireland. For example because TV broadcasts in N.I. are also easily received across large parts of Eire, film rights are usually sold as "UK & Ireland" As others have noted there is also the language commonalty plus the fact many UK retailers also have a presence in Eire and for motor manufacturers, the fact we both drive on the left makes it easy to lump the two together (and yes I know Eire uses Km/H instead of MPH but that is easily dealt with) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 I can't see many modelshops continuing to stock Hornby track if they can sell the superior and interchangeable Peco Setrack at similar prices and get a better return into the bargain. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 .................. there are also a couple of sentences, including that where they state that "Hornby will at all times act in a professional manner"................................................... Perhaps they should try to instill that into their supply chain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I don't see how these new T&Cs could protect local shops from the box shifters (if indeed that is part of Hornby's plan). Secondly, in my view, it would be a restraint of EU trade for Hornby to attempt to limit sales of a trader based in the EU to specific parts of the EU. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The headline clause is contained within the section for Internet Sales: "Retailers are granted permission to only sell within the territories classified as the United Kingdom and Eire". There will be many retailers, such as myself, who have built up a valuable customer base outside the UK, and in an instant, it would appear that we have to simply let this business disappear. Well, on the surface that comes as a bit of a shock I must say. At first glance this looks like a way to divert all non-domestic sales to Hornby.com. I can purchase Scalextric and Airfix from a shop up the road. These are distributed by Hornby America Inc. Actually I've asked this shop to stock the new Airfix Quick Build kits but I'm still waiting (for months now). To the best of my knowledge, I cannot purchase Hornby model railway items anywhere in the US. I usually place internet orders with my preferred retailers in the UK. These transactions then take place in Britain in British currency. The VAT is removed and postage is computed and my card is billed at the time of shipping. In my one prior experience, for the international purchaser, Hornby.com, was awful. They didn't have any mechanism to compute postage accurately and substituted a flat rate fee. (From memory, it was £50, and that was for the catalogue*!) I don't recall if they removed the VAT. * Subsequently they did offer a special, postage-included 'rest of the world' price for the catalogue, but I don't know if they have improved postage calculations. There is an online entity called Hornby America. I challenge anyone to figure out how to place an order there for a British outline locomotive.* Perhaps Hornby plans to expand this entity. * (I don't believe the locomotive in the illustration is even available any more.) Frankly I find this topic of this thread very disturbing - in part for the very worthy small business people who run retail hobby shops with an internet presence whom I like for their excellent service, and of course in part selfishly, if the implication is now that to purchase any British outline model railway item made by Hornby, I am forced to use their crappy website and absurd postage non-calculations. I'll stop now before I get really spun up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The cynic in me wonders if Hornby want this market, ie outside of the British Isles, for themselves via internet sales from their website - at a price decided by them of course.. You are hardly being cynical there Phil. I can't think of an alternative. I cannot imagine that this would be the case. The US/Canada/Aus/NZ market for Hornby trains is quite large, and there will I imagine be some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement between Hornby and existing on-line UK sellers to service it. It all has the smell of trying to establish fair, clear, and profitable guidelines for all Hornby resellers. But as I say, I haven't read the contract(s). Rob, it really doesn't strike me that way at all, but of course, like you, I haven't read the contract. Yes, there's been a lot of frustration directed at Hornby, some well informed, some less so, but you don't need to don the mantle of the Hornby champion. Most of us here are big Hornby fans. We grew up with the brand and still love it today. Places like New Zealand and Australia (where there are Hornby retailers) are one thing and arguably, in principle, it is "better" to purchase your model railways from them rather than a UK retailer, ignoring of course the issues that you can't reliably get anything that you actually want through a local dealer. Even this approach is simply not possible for me. I have to rely on an internet presence in the UK. If I am forced to Hornby.com I won't be a happy bunny. The existing Hornby direct sales on-line experience is quite a mixed bag, sometimes appalling, like taking money without having the goods at hand, albeit offering refund some days later, so I expect retailers in the UK to remain able to sell within certain agreed constraints like discounting, to any customer they wish. If the on-line buyer is domiciled in Beirut the sale still takes place in the UK? Calling Hornby.com a mixed bag is exceedingly generous. It's awful. We had people posting just recently that the confirmed purchases they made weeks ago during the sale were "out of stock". I'd also like to think that the statement in the OP means that a transaction in Britain in British currency is still in-bounds, wherever the customer might hang his or her hat, but it certainly doesn't read that way to me and that interpretation feels wildly optimistic. I'll have to cool my jets and wait and see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 We shall have to wait and see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowlander Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hi This is not something I'd normally do, but I am a proud Brit who is becoming rather embarassed with this "British" companies attitude to its buying public. This is aimed at Rob and Ozexpatriate and all the other overseas buyers . Get on the e-mail to Hattons, Rails etc and find out what exactly this new fiasco means for you. I'm sure that the aforementioned retailers will only be to glad to here your views and thoughts. As I have mentioned in another posting, this is their livelyhoods also. Hattons have I think already had to enter the second hand market and no doubt other retailers have had to diversify also due to Hornbies inability to cope with the basic supply and demand principle that all companies need to do to survive. I'm sure that like all retailers just now every penny is a prisoner. The last thing they all need now is for Hornby again to further restrict their money making potential. Most of the posts on here from overseas buyers speak very highly of the service they receive from internet providers large and small. So why should you be denied a service that works well financially for buyer and seller. Isn't this what the free market and world wide web are there for. As for Hornby. I would appeal to them, to seriously look at where they are going overall. You have people here willing to buy your products.Treat them with the respect they deserve. Please don't become the Ratners of the model railway world. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm not expecting cessation of supply by such as Hattons, Kernows, or even smaller UK sellers to myself in NZ. On the surface this would seem like restraint of trade. I could ask a UK resident to be my agent, or even a proxy entity would work, making a mockery of such limitation. As I see it. Nor am I being defensive towards Hornby; I don't know what the new Terms and Conditions are, effectively, yet. Equally I have no particular thing about 'my local shop', as such sellers ceased to be relevant to me several years ago, what I wanted either not in stock, or delivery would be delayed, and/or the price was too high. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manna Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 G'Day Gents I hope this is going to be one great big dud for Hornby, because as an overseas buyer, I would hate to have to buy everything I want from E-Bay instead of say Hattons, I want to buy the P2, will I be able to e-mail Hattons and just buy it, or will I have to pay over the odds from some wide boy profiteer on e-bay. Not Happy, Booborowie, South Australia. manna Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2014 I can't see many modelshops continuing to stock Hornby track if they can sell the superior and interchangeable Peco Setrack at similar prices and get a better return into the bargain. John Ahh but maybe they have to sell Hornby track in order to source trains ets , locos , coaching stock? Maybe a dealer agreement? As to the restrictive selling part I know that I can't buy a Royal Carribean Cruise from a travel agent in the US, where it's much less expensive. As soon as they hear the accent they ask for an address and then say "Sorry sir.........." instead I have to buy from their Uk appointed agent and in UK market prices are much higher. So there must be some restriction enforceable by law. I still can't see what Hornby are doing though, other than they think it will increase their margins. I am also not sure if they have legally tested this. As others have said they may simply be relying on their dealers being so small and not having enough financial clout to challenge them. It leaves a very sour taste . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocp Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Is this honestly for real? Hornby are barely supplying models at the moment and yet they are restricting how and where we buy them? Do they know something about their new factories and supply chain they we don't? That's a slight concern I feel... What happens with items already pre-ordered? (Some I have been waiting nearly two years for) Hornby are really going about running their company into the ground pretty well at the moment if you ask me. We 'loyal' customers have seen qc become a massive drama, the models are more expensive with lower detail/quality and the delays are a joke (two years for re liveries is ridiculous) yet we all are giving Hornby a chance and we all want Hornby to bounce back and succeed not only for the benefit of Hornby, but for the hobby itself. I live in Australia and buy from Hattons/Rails etc. At least I am buying new Hornby items, (when they show up) now if they restrict us to where we shall buy them, I shall not buy new Hornby products. I won't be alone in this I am sure. Quick question, when do these (ridiculous) terms and conditions come into effect? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Quick question, when do these (ridiculous) terms and conditions come into effect? April 1st ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike at C&M Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 The terms state the "Effective" Date is 1st January 2014, with dealers required to sign up to them by February 28th. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 April 1st ? As a start date it was good enough for Railtrack, ergo...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Whether it's a misunderstanding, a lack of communication or an apparently ill judged marketing move one thing Hornby will have to consider soon is that perhaps on here, and other places, there is a deal of antipathy building towards them. They must have noticed this - perhaps it's time for them to be totally transparent about things just in case everyone has got hold of the wrong end of the stick. Or maybe they're big enough not to worry - who knows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 Whether it's a misunderstanding, a lack of communication or an apparently ill judged marketing move one thing Hornby will have to consider soon is that perhaps on here, and other places, there is a deal of antipathy building towards them. They must have noticed this - perhaps it's time for them to be totally transparent about things just in case everyone has got hold of the wrong end of the stick. Or maybe they're big enough not to worry - who knows. Or maybe they just think they are.......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.