Hornby New Trade Terms - What will it mean for the customer

[250BOB]

One of the biggest is AB Gee just up the road from here at Ripley in Derbyshire. If you scroll to the bottom of this page is lists all the toy and model shops that they supply to. Their home page lists all the brands that they supply and so for a small retailer it acts as a 'one stop shop' supplying all they need

 

http://www.abgee.co.uk/BrandDetail.aspx?BrandID=10

 

Edit - just seen this on their news page

 

we hold the unique position of being the exclusive wholesaler for Hornby and Scalextric

 

Hi Mike,

So where do those shops who are not on the list, buy their stock from.??

 

Why would you buy from a wholesaler and not direct from Hornby.??

Bob

[robmcg]

Just like a corner shop buying a lot of stock from a grocery wholesaler, they haven't got time or resources to deal with many different suppliers of different things in their shop.

[Mike at C&M]

So where do those shops who are not on the list, buy their stock from.??

Most of us will deal direct with Hornby

[TheSignalEngineer]

One of the biggest is AB Gee just up the road from here at Ripley in Derbyshire. If you scroll to the bottom of this page is lists all the toy and model shops that they supply to. Their home page lists all the brands that they supply and so for a small retailer it acts as a 'one stop shop' supplying all they need

 

http://www.abgee.co.uk/BrandDetail.aspx?BrandID=10

 

Edit - just seen this on their news page

 

we hold the unique position of being the exclusive wholesaler for Hornby and Scalextric

Had a look at their Hornby page. Most things are shown as obsolete or don't have a price listed. Same for Airfix and Humbrol.

[Martin_R]

Hi Mike,

So where do those shops who are not on the list, buy their stock from.??

 

Why would you buy from a wholesaler and not direct from Hornby.??

Bob

Typically in ordering direct from a manufacturer there may be a minimum order quantity of say between 4 to 50 off per item but from wholesaler this could be as low as 1 per item. If the same supply conditions apply to Hornby imagine the comparative outlay in buying in a range of Hornby locos, coaches, wagons and scenic items at trade price - the big box shifters no problem but a small shop with ever rising overheads......... stock deliveries are like buses - non for ages then suddenly a whole load together which kills cash flow.

[The Stationmaster]

I just didn't realize the market was big enough to have a model railway wholesalers. The cash and carry is a bit different, everyone need food

 

As far as I know only one wholesaler (A.B. Gee) is a wholesaler for Hornby, and many other lines and manufacturers.  I have heard that one retailer does sell to other retailers but they sell at the same price that they charge their end customers and folk only seem to buy items from them which Hornby or others have sold out of so they are not losing anyone any wholesale business.

[Ozexpatriate]

The marketing manager is not aware of their new terms and conditions?!?

This is not unusual at all. As others have commented, sales and marketing are different organizations.

 

Marketing's responsibility is new product definition and promotional activity. Sales is responsible for, somewhat predictably, sales.

[The White Rabbit]

One of the biggest is AB Gee just up the road from here at Ripley in Derbyshire. If you scroll to the bottom of this page is lists all the toy and model shops that they supply to. Their home page lists all the brands that they supply and so for a small retailer it acts as a 'one stop shop' supplying all they need

 

http://www.abgee.co.uk/BrandDetail.aspx?BrandID=10

 

I don't know if it still the case, but in the past we've found that they don't keep back orders 'in quarantine' for customers. When Hornby deliveries are made, items are initially put aside for customers until the carriage paid threshold is reached, when they sent you a parcel or two. Unfortunately, these items could be 'raided' for other retailers who order more frequently. So you could end up in the situation of having ordered items, only to find they went to other shops because you didn't order often enough. Needless to say, this caused problems, especially with pre-ordered items and was a major factor in us opening an account with Hornby direct. 

[Legend]

Stewart,

 

the only people for whom this has any bearing are the retailers who currently sell to people who live outside the UK and Eire and those people who live outside the UK and Eire who want to buy Hornby model railway items.

 

For everyone else it is business as usual.

 

Hopefully it will be business as usual for everyone except for enterprises like Amazon.com and the wording has just made us skittish. As you suggest, we shall have to wait until the retailers can ask Hornby specific follow-up questions.  It was interesting to see people on the Airfix forums respond the same way that many people did here.

 

In hindsight, we all should have waited until the retailers could ask the right questions before responding. In that regard, I'm as guilty of partially informed froth as anyone.

Except that they have also increased trade prices, so Hornby products are less discounted ,costing us ,the end customer more

 

Their actions are likely to channel people through their direct sales channel rather than the independent model shop, further reducing the number of model shops you can buy from.

[Removed a/c]

So Hattons, Rails etc don't purchase directly from Hornby then? 

 

Not sure what was indecipherable about this ? 

[tomparryharry]

I wonder if any of the other manufacturers are watching this PR mess develop? Would it only need someone with a non red box to anounce maybe a 'quality' 42XX / 52XX / 72XX, maybe even a P2 or a Duke of Gloucester or perhaps even a Crosti 9F. While Hornby seems hell bent on imploding someone else could well give the rug a good tug - I know I would even if the products were not even on the drawing board yet!

Stop it. A quality 42xx?

 

Be still, my beating heart.....

[gismorail]

Having modelled german and swiss railways in the past I was always very impressed how manufacturer's are very supportive of the model shops, to the point that when a manufacturer has a stand at an exhibition they do not sell items direct to the public. The effect that I have found is that there is very little discounting by the said shops

[big jim]

i find it interesting that there are 9 pages about something that 10-15 years ago, prior to the boom in internet use and discussion, we would have probably not been aware of, party to or even been bothered about unless we were in the trade! 

[Ozexpatriate]

i find it interesting that there are 9 pages about something that 10-15 years ago, prior to the boom in internet use and discussion, we would have probably not been aware of, party to or even been bothered about unless we were in the trade!

It is the existence of the internet that permits me to pursue the British outline railway models I loved when I was young. Otherwise it would all be US outline for me. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but ...

 

If there is a material impact at all here, the biggest impact would be to people in the trade.

[big jim]

sorry I dont understand that Jim?

the way i see it is before the likes of the internet gave everyone who wanted it a platform to discuss things in "real time" items like Hornby's trade terms would have been kept between Hornby and the trader, we as buyers would just be happy to go to our local shop, pick up a new loco, take it home and run it, (hopefully) without questioning how that loco made it from the factory to the shop

 

whereas now, we, despite 95% of us not being in the trade, can see just how business' work, how the t+c's are set out and can see how it will effect us in the long run as the end consumer, and can instantly voice our opinion (for what its worth!), which is hopefully a good thing IF the powers that be, the people making decisions at an executive level listen (to traders and buying public alike)

[Philip Jackson]

this bit puzzles me:

 

"Retailers are granted permission to only sell within the territories classified as the United Kingdom and Eire".

 

which means the sale must take place in the UK (or Eire), so if the website is hosted in the UK, payment processed in the UK and shipped from the UK, surely the retailer can ships wherever he / she likes. I have no contract with Hornby that says "purchasers are granted permission to purchase only within the UK and Eire" 

 

Mind you the prices for Hornby stuff lately means I've only been buying heavily discounted items anyway.

[farren]

sorry I have not gone all though this treed, but to me  I am not 100% sure what's meant by this, may be it's my dyslexia playing tricks on me.

 

  "Retailers are granted permission to only sell within the territories classified as the United Kingdom and Eire".

 

 I can not help it but I can read this two ways dependent on which word I put the emphasis on. PERMISSION or ONLY.

 

any one got the Full paragraph which would help.

[Bill]

Having recently moved to O gauge, all of this is utterly irrelevant to my self...

The current owners of the Hornby brand can and probably should go bankrupt for all that I care...

But for the sake of modellers yet to be born the following is tendered...

However I live in Canada and work exclusively in British outline models...

In order to get anything from an approved Hornby stockist in Canada, it is like trying to have a meaningful conversation with the North Korean government.

They give the acronym "SNAFU" and the words "Expensive" and "Delayed" whole new dimensions of rich and profound meaning...

So I chose to shop in England..

The internet allows me to do this.

I therefore have the ability to establish an electronic presence in the UK...

No less real than if I was actually present at the counter to effect a purchase.

The retailer then mails me what I purchase to an address of my choosing..

This is a private matter between myself and the retailer -

This is the beauty of the internet...

I cannot see for the life of me see that that is going to change in any way.

It would be an interference of personal liberty if that was the case.

For its is a very dangerous and rocky road for any corporation or person to follow if they were to try to prevent or restrict me and my human kind in any way...

From exercising my/our basic human rights..

Which is at the heart of this issue

[Sasquatch]

"Retailers are granted permission to only sell within the territories classified as the United Kingdom and Eire".

 

This is a very vague statement.

It could just mean that retailers cannot take Hornby products outside of the UK and RoI. to sell them.

 

Question? where has this statement originated from??

 

If this means Hornby are for some very stupid reason trying to stop UK and RoI retailers from shipping abroad they deserve to go under!

And if so,  they can shove their long overdue LNER forthcoming releases where the sun don't shine.

 

Shaun. A very disappointed customer for 38 years.

[Sasquatch]

Certainly within both the E.U. and the U.S.A supplying an electrical item not to local sopecification is illegal.

Don't Hornby supply mains electrical components for the British market with British plugs.

Anyone who changes the plug would be doing so at their own risk thus no infringement on local laws apply.

[Sasquatch]

What does this mean then? (taken from OP)

 

"Retailers are granted permission to only sell within the territories classified as the United Kingdom and Eire".

Like I said, vague statement but it could also mean Hornby wish to only supply from retailers within the UK and Eire and are not supplying retailers elsewhere. I can't see how or for heavens sake why, Hornby would want to stop private businesses selling to whom they wish. And how are they going to determine what's being sold second hand and what's new.

Knock Knock. Someone at the door. Oh no it's the HBI (Hornby Bureau of Investigations). That'll explain the high prices!!

 

I'm going for a late night stroll before my blood boils over.

[tomparryharry]

Knock Knock. Someone at the door. Oh no it's the HBI (Hornby Bureau of Investigations). That'll explain the high prices!!

 

I'm going for a late night stroll before my blood boils over.

 

 

 

Stop it. You're making me laugh.

 

Imagine the scenario.... Small man knocks at your door. He is dressed in a gaberdine mac, wearing a moustache, and carrying a clipboard...

 

High pitched nasal voice. "Excuse me, I'm from the Hornby Revenue Team. You appear to have bought some Hornby 4-wheel wagons, at a discounted price".

 

"Err, no. Not me, Guv'ner. Honest!"

 

"I can see them on your layout. They're easy to spot, they've got cr*p couplings, and the finish is lacking. Large fine for you, my boy!"

[Dunsignalling]

I wonder if any of the other manufacturers are watching this PR mess develop? Would it only need someone with a non red box to anounce maybe a 'quality' 42XX / 52XX / 72XX, maybe even a P2 or a Duke of Gloucester or perhaps even a Crosti 9F. While Hornby seems hell bent on imploding someone else could well give the rug a good tug - I know I would even if the products were not even on the drawing board yet!

I think the lead times are rather too long to make such rug-tugging a practical proposition and the UK market is too small for either party to do well out of duplication.

 

Hornby's 8-coupled GW tanks actually look OK now I've seen several and there don't appear to be any major accuracy issues. Smoke box door handles are easy to deal with if you are really bothered and the answers to any doubts about chassis durability lie well into the future.

 

Satisfying the "refusenik" buyers, even if there are a few hundred of them, wouldn't be commercially worthwhile for any volume producer. A "better" one would have to be sufficiently superior to make existing owners of the Hornby ones want to replace theirs and I don't think they are bad enough for that to happen.

 

Any idea of splitting the market for one-off prototypes seems dubious if not suicidal. Pre-orders (if what we read on here is correct) suggest that Hornby can easily shift all the fully detailed P2s the trade currently have on order (maybe a couple of thousand) and a few hundred on top of that but that the Railroad one might struggle if they make too many of them.

 

The "full-fat" P2 is a statement model and is unlikely to be hugely profitable in itself; the continuing revenue will come from the follow-up models.

 

John

[40F]

I do hope not because they seem to have worked fairly hard in the past to prove the opposite was the case.  Hornby have long had a policy of not supplying goods to people who do not have retail premises and should anyone get to hear of this apparently being broken a word to their rep usually brings results.

 

It seems however that the same does not apply to their toy trade wholesaler who are apparently happy to supply anybody who is able to pay for the goods.  Thus you find folk operating from their front room, garden shed, or garage or whatever in direct competition with properly established retailers and offering far lower prices because they have no overheads.  I would personally have hoped that if Hornby have any interest in their retailers they would be stamping on these outlets which are hardly competing on a level playing field.

 

 

And usually pay no tax or vat oir business rates so they can afford to buy a £1.00 and sell at £1.10 and THINK they have made a profit

[ThaneofFife]

And usually pay no tax or vat oir business rates so they can afford to buy a £1.00 and sell at £1.10 and THINK they have made a profit

Havent they actually made a profit of 10p using that example? You put "think" in capitals suggesting they havent but if they arent paying the usual overheads like a shop surely there is a profit for them in its simplest terms or theres no point in them doing it.