Trains4U Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Having just familiarised myself with the new terms, I'm afraid to say I'm a little too frustrated and annoyed to offer a reasoned opinion right now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JCL Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 I think we may have a breakthrough: Someone made a boo boo when they made up the document........ Mike. Evidently. If it's true, then what an unnecessary cockup! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2014 thus dobbing the retailer in Too much Neighbours.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Riddell Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 It was interesting to see people on the Airfix forums respond the same way that many people did here. Not that surprising, really - they're modellers just the same as the people here on RMWeb. It's just the subject matter that's different. It's a pity that the various modelling communities have a tendency to be hermetically sealed from one each other as there's so much that they can learn from the rest. Having just familiarised myself with the new terms, I'm afraid to say I'm a little too frustrated and annoyed to offer a reasoned opinion right now... Taking into account what's turned up on Britmodeller, if your a retailer, you should be fine. If your a wholesaler, you have a problem. Evidently. If it's true, then what an unnecessary cockup! Human beings are human beings after all. The team coming up with the T&C's knew what they meant, they just forgot that everyone else didn't. I believe it's called "Group Thinking". Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2014 Andy, I don't live in Europe. But as several people have posted, many of us have jumped to a conclusion, and we need to wait until the retailers can ask Hornby specific questions. You are not in Europe - but Hattons, Rails etc are. Hornby are not permitted to restrict their sales under EU rules - as stated by Simon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Sooo...who counts as a wholesaler and who counts as a retailer? Not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly don't know! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I see a second career coming on .....................Ace Rat, Train detective......... Now about the film rights.................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Sooo...who counts as a wholesaler and who counts as a retailer? Not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly don't know! So Hattons, Rails etc don't purchase directly from Hornby then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 So Hattons, Rails etc don't purchase directly from Hornby then? I must admit, I thought all retailers ordered directly from Margate, or via their rep.????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_R Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I wonder if any of the other manufacturers are watching this PR mess develop? Would it only need someone with a non red box to anounce maybe a 'quality' 42XX / 52XX / 72XX, maybe even a P2 or a Duke of Gloucester or perhaps even a Crosti 9F. While Hornby seems hell bent on imploding someone else could well give the rug a good tug - I know I would even if the products were not even on the drawing board yet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Except the prices have nearly doubled (Hattons - Railroad 9F £56 - Railroad Crosti 9F £110+). It won't be "Business as usual" from me as far as Hornby is concerned. Brit15 But that is an entirely separate issue which is already the subject of debate, comment, insightful thought, rants, frothing, hysteria, conjecture, speculation, confusion, etc etc etc..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby (John) Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 So Hattons, Rails etc don't purchase directly from Hornby then? As with 99% of most industries! there are different levels of consumer distribution. Most national chains and large independent retailers of any description buy direct from manufacturers and the smaller outlets buy from wholesalers.........Just like when Dev or Rita say in Coronation Street " just going down the cash and carry" :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matabiau Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I think we all have to accept that prices are going to rise and sharply over the years to come. I suspect Bachmann have managed to limit the rise (or at least delay it) by manufacturing in-house. Hornby by using sub-contractors is will have to pay more and subsequently pass this on to its customers. Hornby are trying to limit this rise through cost cutting exercises such as "design clever". It is debatable as to whether this is the best solution or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 This thread seems to be concentrating on what a UK retailer can sell to a customer in what country. More important as I see it is the restriction on splitting sets. Several outlets do this on a regular basis and several people on here that I know off take advantage of this service. It is not this change to the T & C that I see as a problem. It is the one that is as certain to follow as night follows day. Limit the number of outlets to mainly concessions at RRP and very local highly controlled sales through other dealers. Everything else at full RRP direct from Hornby. There are various schemes that might well be illegal, but many companies seem to operate them with out any problems. They do seem to have reached a state of desperation. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Sooo...who counts as a wholesaler and who counts as a retailer? Not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly don't know! Retailer are shops, regardless of whether they are Hattons or the local toyshop or some website. Some shops don't buy their stock direct from Hornby, but from companies that buy stock from Hornby and sell it on to shops for a small profit. Those are the wholesalers.The idea behind them is that a shop buys their stock from one or two wholesalers, rather than having to deal with dozens of different manufacturers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike at C&M Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 I wonder if any of the other manufacturers are watching this PR mess develop? Yes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornbyandbf3fan Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I wonder if any of the other manufacturers are watching this PR mess develop? Almost certainly, Hornby are going to have to think their business plan through. And get on with the J15, K1 and D16... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The situation for overseas buyers is obviously of concern to them, and form the replies here, the possibilities range from benign to serious. it is entirely possible that (as already posted), these terms of trade are aimed at internet-only retailers and that in practice, retail outlets with shops will be able to service overseas customers who order from them. So it is possible that in practice the impact will be negligible. As far as UK is concerned, the strategy does not mean no High Street presence, because there is clearly a concerted attempt to get stockists on the High Street. Under this strategy, there seems to be a concerted effort to ensure that the High Street stockists (e.g WHSmith/Modelzone, Hawkins Bazaar, Fenwicks, Hamleys etc) find that holding Hornby Group products is a viable business that isn't undermined by internet/toyfair/cut-price dealers. Now I am a fan of the traditional model shop as much as anyone, but for large numbers of us, that entity has ceased to exist in any meaningful form already. Arguably this does actually provide a network of retailers that will let me buy Hornby over the counter. The truth is despite the dire predictions of some, we just have to see how it pans out in practice. For the retailers I have great sympathy for an uncertain situation that directly affects them, but for the rest of us, it really is just speculation at this stage. I just thought this was worth repeating, because it represents pretty much my feeling about the new Terms and Conditions, which apparently are to be backdated to 1 Jan this year with acceptance by 28 Feb this year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 As with 99% of most industries! there are different levels of consumer distribution. Most national chains and large independent retailers of any description buy direct from manufacturers and the smaller outlets buy from wholesalers.........Just like when Dev or Rita say in Coronation Street " just going down the cash and carry" :-) I just didn't realize the market was big enough to have a model railway wholesalers. The cash and carry is a bit different, everyone need food Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 One for the legal guys on here! If a shop in the UK sells something to somebody who lives in the US, has the sale been "made" in the UK or the US? The delivery address may by abroad but the stock is in the UK, the money arrives in the UK and is banked here, then the product is delivered abroad. So what constitutes a "sale" in legal terms? Anybody know? Tony I'm not a legal expert but if the item for sale is in the UK, the seller is in the UK, with bricks and mortar and a pile of stock, and the sale is subject to UK tax laws and consumer laws, then the sale is being made in the UK., with UK money, even if the order if from Bill Smith of Australia or Turkestan, with the money being supplied via a third party like a bank or PayPal, and the delivery address is in Greenland. The transaction still takes place in the UK. Someone care to say this is not so? I'm not sure how Amazon UK sells books through EU Luxemburg even if the book sold is from a shelf in Inverness, perhaps Amazon have their own rules...? typo edit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm not a legal expert but if the item for sale is in the UK, the seller is in the UK, with bricks and mortar and a pile of stock, and the sale is subject to UK tax laws and consumer laws, then the sale is being made in the UK., with UK money, even if the order if from Bill Smith of Australia or Turkestan, with the money being supplied via a third party like a bank or PayPal, and the delivery address is in Greenland. The transaction still takes place in the UK. Someone care to say this is not so? I'm not sure how Amazon UK sells books through EU Luxemburg even if the book sold is from a shelf in Inverness, perhaps Amazon have their own rules...? typo edit Oh Yes...!!!!!! Amazon certainly do have their own rules. Rule 1. Do not pay tax in the UK Rule 2. Do not pay tax in the UK Rule 3,4,5,6,7,8 etc etc etc DO NOT PAY TAX IN THE UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium The White Rabbit Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2014 Rules 9 - 99 DO NOT PAY TAX ANYWHERE... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm not a legal expert but if the item for sale is in the UK, the seller is in the UK, with bricks and mortar and a pile of stock, and the sale is subject to UK tax laws and consumer laws, then the sale is being made in the UK., with UK money, even if the order if from Bill Smith of Australia or Turkestan, with the money being supplied via a third party like a bank or PayPal, and the delivery address is in Greenland. The transaction still takes place in the UK. Someone care to say this is not so? I'm not sure how Amazon UK sells books through EU Luxemburg even if the book sold is from a shelf in Inverness, perhaps Amazon have their own rules...? typo edit All they do is employ clever accountants who shift the location the business is registered to around the world to take advantage of the lowest taxes and highest profits - all thanks to the much vaulted 'opening up of markets' / globalisation strategy beloved by Politicans across the world. Across the EU it is a point of principle that VAT only gets charged once and the rate depends on the country the 'retail' premises is in. Thus all Amazon have done is register the official 'place of business' where books displayed on the website Amazon.co.uk as being in Luxembourg. Thus any taxes you pay (i.e. VAT) and indeed a business tax they pay is done under in accordance with the tax rules of Luxembourg - the fact that you or I pay in £ is irrelevant for tax collection purposes as Amazon will pass on what is due in Euro's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Oh Yes...!!!!!! Amazon certainly do have their own rules. Rule 1. Do not pay tax in the UK Rule 2. Do not pay tax in the UK Rule 3,4,5,6,7,8 etc etc etc DO NOT PAY TAX IN THE UK. That is wrong, for Amazon it is: Rule 1 do not pay tax anywhere Rule 2..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted January 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2014 I must admit, I thought all retailers ordered directly from Margate, or via their rep.????? I just didn't realize the market was big enough to have a model railway wholesalers. The cash and carry is a bit different, everyone need food One of the biggest is AB Gee just up the road from here at Ripley in Derbyshire. If you scroll to the bottom of this page is lists all the toy and model shops that they supply to. Their home page lists all the brands that they supply and so for a small retailer it acts as a 'one stop shop' supplying all they need http://www.abgee.co.uk/BrandDetail.aspx?BrandID=10 Edit - just seen this on their news page we hold the unique position of being the exclusive wholesaler for Hornby and Scalextric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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