RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 Don't be daft, they're not wearing stilettos That would be lasses from Newcastle, these are southern softies from Gateshead as they are wearing boots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) OK, listen up SOSJ lovers - time for a serious question. Before there was a peculiar burning smell, some time was spent on Tuesday attempting to fault find some points that our glorious leader asked me to look at. Mr Ducky reckoned that, as originally installed the equipment was working and doing what it was supposed to but then problems had started. What we're talking about here are the frog juicers for the (modified) Peco points. We selected the shortest wheelbase loco possible (some obscure Suvvern 0-4-0T that I hadn't seen before <-- geddit? Oh, never mind...) A job lot of Gaugemaster juicers has been acquired and have been installed on most of the points in the Junction station area. Now, even with my limited DC-with-an-extra-C competence, it would be going some to wire these up wrong - just three wires required (I thought DCC was supposed to be just two wires?), red and black to the terminals at one end (either way round) and the other wire to the frog. All were apparently wired correctly. Here, though, is what was actually happening: We were running over the point from the branch that leads into the sidings, across a double slip and over a further point - the pointwork involved is shown in the photo below on a previous visit prior to being permanently fixed down. The juicers in question were those fitted to both frogs of the double slip and the med. rad. point beyond. The symptom is that, in each of the three cases, the loco would run over OK with the point set in one direction but when the point was changed (by hand - these points have not been motored yet), the loco stopped when it got to the frog (ie fully past the rail break). Note carefully that it did NOT create a short, it just stopped dead, meaning that there was neither a black or red connection to the frog, it was just 'dead'. The consequence of this was that there was only one of the four possible routes through the slip that the loco would run through without stopping. It appears to me therefore (although I am happy to be corrected by any out there with more knowledge of how these things are actually supposed to work) that in all cases, the juicer was half working, ie in one of the directions it would correctly detect the loco and instantaneous switch (link) the frog to the correct running rail - but in the other direction it wouldn't do so and left it not switched to either rail. The lack of a short in any of the testing would indicate that the juicers were NOT stuck in one direction only. Now for one to be doing this might indicate a duff juicer, but three? At one stage, we swapped one out for another (fourth) juicer but still the same. In another instance when we were trying stuff, one of the juicers worked the other way round, ie the route through the frog that formerly worked didn't and vice versa - had we simply swapped the red and black wires to it over?. SO - anybody any idea of what is going on (or not going on?). Is it the case that these juicers don't 'talk' to the NCE PowerCab correctly? Is that possible?! To try and anticipate some questions: Mr Ducky has connected up his layout droppers in three districts: fiddle yard; down main; and up main. It was therefore quite easy to isolate the other districts and just leave the down main (which is the side the branch and associated sidings are on) connected. Made no difference. Mr Ducky has started to fit Cobalts (classics) and the intention is that the majority of points at the Junction will be so worked and make use of the internal switch to connect to the frog (thus eliminating the need for juicers on those points. However, there will still be some handworked points (basically, the up sidings) where Mr Ducky would like to carry on using the juicers (although other options are available, like the linked switch option Clive has highlighted). It would be useful to get the bottom of what is happening in any case The NCE PowerCab is the lower power 1.5A max version. Unfortunately, any further testing / fault-finding was not possible following the burn out so there may be some 'have you tried?' ideas that we didn't get round to. Any comments, thoughts, suggestions, views welcome. Dropping the extra 'C', clockwork power and a chainsaw have already been suggested. Edited June 28, 2018 by LNER4479 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) When I had double slips, I applied insulating rail joiners to all rails and then applied two power wires to the outside rails only. so the whole thing was an independent woman thing.. I know, I know.... no help what so ever Edited June 28, 2018 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 28, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 When I had double slips, I applied insulating rail joiners to all rails and then applied two power wires to the outside rails only. so the whole thing was an independent woman thing.. I know, I know.... no help what so ever The Slip has been 'modified' and wired as advised a couple of years back by several sources as have the other two in the Up Yard. I'll try them as soon as I have a controller and panel sorted. I am certain that even my M7 ran over that Slip in all directions selected just a few months back and G hasn't mentioned that we moved up to a Pannier (WR 0.6.0) just in case the B4 was just too bl##dy small! The pannier was also useless over the naughty Slip and Point. I can't remember if I told him that several of the DCC80s have seemed to fail recently after not a lot of use. I fear I may have done something somewhere on the layout and blown them up. However I have actually had two of them smoking in the past due to 'idiot wiring mistakes' and they stank but survived. There were no Juicery smells this time, just the Power Cab! I have to thank G for bringing this up and explaining things so clearly. My brain had failed that afternoon and so I can hardly remember what we were actually doing apart from looking at some seriously good photo's and eating a Magnum! I am thinking a bit more clearly now despite glutening myself this lunchtime and have some idea of where I/we are going with point ops and wiring. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbowilts Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Remember that a double slip is effectively two ordinary points toe-to-toe. Dr G-F is correct that you only need to connect the outsiderails to the power bus with the frogs with a separate frog juicerreach. You must however have each rog isolated from all other rails? HTH, Tim T 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2018 Simple question - are the frog juicers connected in relation to the right set of point switch railks? i.e. the juicer that powers the frog at the right hand end is worked in conjunction with the switch rails at the left hand end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Thanks for comments so far - I can assure all that the slips are wired correctly as described. That bit at least is common with DC!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Simple question - are the frog juicers connected in relation to the right set of point switch railks? i.e. the juicer that powers the frog at the right hand end is worked in conjunction with the switch rails at the left hand end. On the Peco slips, all the switch rails are hard-wired to the adjacent running rail so you don't have to worry about that aspect. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2018 Well, I've learned something by reading this thread. That's what RMWeb is all about, isn't it? I've learned that things called 'frog juicers' exist. I still have no idea what they do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2018 I did, however, spot a pannier in an earlier photo. And while we're on the subject of the GWR, here's a nice photo wot an erstwhile colleague shared with me (didn't take it myself): 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 28, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 Well, I've learned something by reading this thread. That's what RMWeb is all about, isn't it? I've learned that things called 'frog juicers' exist. I still have no idea what they do. I did, however, spot a pannier in an earlier photo. And while we're on the subject of the GWR, here's a nice photo wot an erstwhile colleague shared with me (didn't take it myself): Box Tunnel sunrise.jpg Sunrise at Box? P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2018 That's 'Friendly/Supportive' to the poor frog, by the way. I. L. Ikekermit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 I don't know what is causing the frog juicy blender interface, but we sell a LOT of these, and have only had one back in a couple of years of selling them. I'm sure there must be a simple something somewhere wot is causing things to explode. A sneaky back feed from somewhere? These things are so hard to diagnose by remote control. Who'd be a vet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2018 I don't know what is causing the frog juicy blender interface, but we sell a LOT of these, and have only had one back in a couple of years of selling them. I'm sure there must be a simple something somewhere wot is causing things to explode. A sneaky back feed from somewhere? These things are so hard to diagnose by remote control. Who'd be a vet. Just cut the legs off to eat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Late to the party but when I did a D/S it was modified as per a normal point then isolated on each rail. Feed were dropped, again as per a normal point then the Frog Juicers attached. All worked without any problems Ducky. G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Late to the party but when I did a D/S it was modified as per a normal point then isolated on each rail. Feed were dropped, again as per a normal point then the Frog Juicers attached. All worked without any problems Ducky. G Courtesy of Brisn Lamberts site 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 All this technical stuff!! But if it will enable SOSJ to ever run trains, so be it! (Save our souls Junction - strange name, but I thought the same about Dr Days) Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DIW Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 frog-in-blender.jpg Just cut the legs off to eat. I 'spose you think that's funny! Lith O'bates Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) I 'spose you think that's funny! Lith O'bates Toad brake van? Brian Edited June 28, 2018 by brianusa 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 28, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 I don't know what is causing the frog juicy blender interface, but we sell a LOT of these, and have only had one back in a couple of years of selling them. I'm sure there must be a simple something somewhere wot is causing things to explode. A sneaky back feed from somewhere? These things are so hard to diagnose by remote control. Who'd be a vet. Remember I wired this lot up so I have probably burst the National Grid as well. Initially they all worked like a dream. Now some of them are a nightmare and I/we don't know why. There are DCC 80s in other places that have caused no problems at all. It is essential to get the frog working before attaching Point motors with frog switches. I might contact Gaugemaster and ask them to test them for me; I'll pay the postage etc. Unfortunately the weather is going to be really hot for the next week or so and although the roof is well insulated and I have two fans on all day as well as house windows open wide upstairs, it is quite unpleasant up there at the moment. I might have to get up at 04.00 and do a few hours. P P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 The Slip has been 'modified' and wired as advised a couple of years back by several sources as have the other two in the Up Yard. I'll try them as soon as I have a controller and panel sorted. I am certain that even my M7 ran over that Slip in all directions selected just a few months back and G hasn't mentioned that we moved up to a Pannier (WR 0.6.0) just in case the B4 was just too bl##dy small! The pannier was also useless over the naughty Slip and Point. I can't remember if I told him that several of the DCC80s have seemed to fail recently after not a lot of use. I fear I may have done something somewhere on the layout and blown them up. However I have actually had two of them smoking in the past due to 'idiot wiring mistakes' and they stank but survived. There were no Juicery smells this time, just the Power Cab! I have to thank G for bringing this up and explaining things so clearly. My brain had failed that afternoon and so I can hardly remember what we were actually doing apart from looking at some seriously good photo's and eating a Magnum! I am thinking a bit more clearly now despite glutening myself this lunchtime and have some idea of where I/we are going with point ops and wiring. Phil Did all this happen before, after or at the same time as the PowerCab incident? Just exploring a potential common point (oops) of failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted June 28, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2018 Remember I wired this lot up so I have probably burst the National Grid as well. Initially they all worked like a dream. Now some of them are a nightmare and I/we don't know why. There are DCC 80s in other places that have caused no problems at all. It is essential to get the frog working before attaching Point motors with frog switches. I might contact Gaugemaster and ask them to test them for me; I'll pay the postage etc. Unfortunately the weather is going to be really hot for the next week or so and although the roof is well insulated and I have two fans on all day as well as house windows open wide upstairs, it is quite unpleasant up there at the moment. I might have to get up at 04.00 and do a few hours. P P If you've got a spare point set up a little test rig off the layout - one point with a length of tack joined with metal fish plates to each end. Wire a suspect DCC 80 to the point and try running over both routes in both directions. If it's OK then the problem is in the layout not the DCC 80. If not then the DCC 80 may well be Donalded (rhyming slang). Can't help much beyond that as I've never used frog juicers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Phil, I would genuinely do what John has suggested and wire up a test piece, might seem like a bit of a faf but it'll prove things far quicker. If not then perhaps then send them back. G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 29, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2018 Did all this happen before, after or at the same time as the PowerCab incident? Just exploring a potential common point (oops) of failure. Before. It was a suspicion of lack of power around the layout that caused me to make the fatal decision to pump 18V through the NCE hand Held. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 29, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 29, 2018 If you've got a spare point set up a little test rig off the layout - one point with a length of tack joined with metal fish plates to each end. Wire a suspect DCC 80 to the point and try running over both routes in both directions. If it's OK then the problem is in the layout not the DCC 80. If not then the DCC 80 may well be Donalded (rhyming slang). Can't help much beyond that as I've never used frog juicers. Of course; what a simple idea. My logic chip has also fried. I know it sounds carp but I just do not function correctly these days if the temp is more than about 20*C. I used to think old gits who moaned about the weather were just ........... old gits. Well, now I am an old git! More seriously the condition is nicknamed 'mind fog' and is common in folk with inflammatory conditions like wot I have. The forecast for at least the next ten days is 25*C almost every day. Now I understand that, in OZ that is bl##dy cold and requires the heating to be on, however here in 36E, hot is around 15*C. I suspect Air Con sales will be soaring and even I am tempted as a portable one i was kindly given by Gilbert died a couple of years back. Roast Duck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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