Hornby Mk2e coaches

[BigAndy]

I'd love to Alun, but I reckon the Missus and my own sanity would stop me!

[brushman47544]

Attached is a photo of what I hope will clarify what I have discussed in the above thread:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/66167-mk2e-resized-apperture/

 

The pencil lines show where the Extreme Etchings will fit. This first bit of hacking also shows the discrepancy between the Hornby apperture ( from what they appear to have mis-measured ) and the correct sized apperture.

 

As I stated before, once this mod has been done, the livery will now sit in all the correct places on the coach side therfore giving a visually pleasing and right looking coach.

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

That's done it, thanks... I'm going to wait for the Bachmann Mk2fs to make up my WR rake(s). Let's hope they get them right.

[Brian Kirby]

Sorry Big Andy, i fear you are making a rod for your back by doing this unnecessary conversion. If you measure a Hornby 2E window with a vernier, it's 19.7mm long inside the frame (0.3mm short of Bob's figure) and 21mm long outside the frame. You have quoted the etchings as being "21.5mm long" externally, that's 5ft and 4.5ins in old money, is that too long?The vertical measurement on the inside of the Hornby frame is 8.7mm, which is spot on with Bob's quoted size (660mm divided by 76 = 8.68), which is more accurate than your quoted 8.5mm for the etched frame. The Hornby length also exactly matches the length of the Lima 2B and 2F frames. We know that the Airfix 2D windows were unfortunately oversize, were the Shawplan/Extreme Etchings a compromise size to match? Another problem i have with the etched windows, is that with the thickness of metal and even the thinnest layer of glue, they stick out too far and resemble a bug-eyed monster, made worse if even just one window is out of alignment with the rest. It's difficult to make them look natural, often looking like a botched conversion, whereas with the factory produced moulding we are given a beautifully fine frame with all frames in perfect alignment. Whatever is the solution, we're dealing with millimetrres and fractions of inches here, is it worth the change? I'll happily keep my ultra thin Hornby frames.

 

                                                                                                            Cheers, Brian.

[MJI]

That's done it, thanks... I'm going to wait for the Bachmann Mk2fs to make up my WR rake(s). Let's hope they get them right.

 

But the WR had a lot of 2Es as well, in fact AFAIR apart from 2D FK and BFK most were 2E with some 2F

 

So if you buy Bachmann 2Fs you will need underframe components, roof hatch, some will require bigger door windows (2D sized), so whatever you choose work awaits.

 

2E TSOs as the most common

 

Airfix 2D, move a toilet window, reprofile bottom of sides, sand off door bumpers, may as well wire handrail it. EE frames work well

Hornby 2E, fit EE frames and LG windows, resize roof vents and that underframe

Bachmann 2F, two fan aircon unit, and another box which is missing, roof hatch

 

Which is least work for you?

 

As I do not need a lot and already have 4.5 Airfix based 2Es I am staying that way.

[MJI]

Sorry Big Andy, i fear you are making a rod for your back by doing this unnecessary conversion. If you measure a Hornby 2E window with a vernier, it's 19.7mm long inside the frame (0.3mm short of Bob's figure) and 21mm long outside the frame. You have quoted the etchings as being "21.5mm long" externally, that's 5ft and 4.5ins in old money, is that too long?The vertical measurement on the inside of the Hornby frame is 8.7mm, which is spot on with Bob's quoted size (660mm divided by 76 = 8.68), which is more accurate than your quoted 8.5mm for the etched frame. The Hornby length also exactly matches the length of the Lima 2B and 2F frames. We know that the Airfix 2D windows were unfortunately oversize, were the Shawplan/Extreme Etchings a compromise size to match? Another problem i have with the etched windows, is that with the thickness of metal and even the thinnest layer of glue, they stick out too far and resemble a bug-eyed monster, made worse if even just one window is out of alignment with the rest. It's difficult to make them look natural, often looking like a botched conversion, whereas with the factory produced moulding we are given a beautifully fine frame with all frames in perfect alignment. Whatever is the solution, we're dealing with millimetrres and fractions of inches here, is it worth the change? I'll happily keep my ultra thin Hornby frames.

 

                                                                                                            Cheers, Brian.

 

 

Odd one person finds it well out and someone else correct, could it be different moulds?

[brushman47544]

Sorry Big Andy, i fear you are making a rod for your back by doing this unnecessary conversion. If you measure a Hornby 2E window with a vernier, [sNIP].

 

                                                                                                            Cheers, Brian.

 

But the WR had a lot of 2Es as well, in fact AFAIR apart from 2D FK and BFK most were 2E with some 2F

 

So if you buy Bachmann 2Fs you will need underframe components, roof hatch, some will require bigger door windows (2D sized), so whatever you choose work awaits.

 

2E TSOs as the most common

 

I was thinking of modeling one of the days all the WR Mk2fs were in one rake...

 

Yes I should include some Mk2es and perhaps in view of Brian's comments I may on reflection buy a few, but it really depends on Hornby getting the paint job right on the TSOs as I will be running them out of the box, not making improvements.

[Brian Kirby]

Odd one person finds it well out and someone else correct, could it be different moulds?

 

Good point Martin, i measured the windows on a BSO earlier. Just checked a FO and a TSO, they are all the same size. (Phew!)      BK

[BigAndy]

Sorry Big Andy, i fear you are making a rod for your back by doing this unnecessary conversion. If you measure a Hornby 2E window with a vernier, it's 19.7mm long inside the frame (0.3mm short of Bob's figure) and 21mm long outside the frame. You have quoted the etchings as being "21.5mm long" externally, that's 5ft and 4.5ins in old money, is that too long?The vertical measurement on the inside of the Hornby frame is 8.7mm, which is spot on with Bob's quoted size (660mm divided by 76 = 8.68), which is more accurate than your quoted 8.5mm for the etched frame. The Hornby length also exactly matches the length of the Lima 2B and 2F frames. We know that the Airfix 2D windows were unfortunately oversize, were the Shawplan/Extreme Etchings a compromise size to match? Another problem i have with the etched windows, is that with the thickness of metal and even the thinnest layer of glue, they stick out too far and resemble a bug-eyed monster, made worse if even just one window is out of alignment with the rest. It's difficult to make them look natural, often looking like a botched conversion, whereas with the factory produced moulding we are given a beautifully fine frame with all frames in perfect alignment. Whatever is the solution, we're dealing with millimetrres and fractions of inches here, is it worth the change? I'll happily keep my ultra thin Hornby frames.

 

                                                                                                            Cheers, Brian.

 

 

As I said Brian, these are my own findings and I am sharing them for those who wish to know and rectify the differences. The Extreme Etchings are absolutely the correct size, Brian Hanson would not settle for anything less.

 

They are not a compromise to fit the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby Mk2D - it just happens that Airfix took the trouble to measure the window correctly, unlike Hornby. If you're happy with the undersize frames, then that's great - Happy modelling.

 

Regarding the fixing of the frames ( and btw for thickness, they are also just right ) if you are attempting to fix them with glue, that is why they are sticking out too far from the bodyside - it's the thickness layer of glue and then paint which is making them resemble a bug eyed monster. If you attach them with gloss varnish ( let down slightly ), as it dries, it sucks the frame down onto the surface of the model. Careful application of paint from the airbrush will not alter the appearance of the etch, just enhance it.

Here's one i did earlier:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/47960-airfix-mk2-d/

 

I did find your postings on reducing the height of the Mk2E very good and one which I will attempt to implement.

 

I think my previous post along with the photos speaks for itself on how wrong the coach looks leaving the frames as they are, but again, that's just my own opinion.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Godfrey Glyn]

MJI wrote " Odd one person finds it well out and someone else correct, could it be different moulds?"

 

I am making the assumption that the Lazerglaze inserts were designed to fit the windows on the Airfix coaches. So just to add to the confusion - the Lazerglaze inserts for the 2d TSO are different to those which are designed for the 2d FO. According to my vernier gauge ( Its a Rabone Superpolyamid one) the inserts for the TSO are 20.2 mm x 8.9 mm whilst the FO ones come out at  19.9mm x 8.5mm. Now even allowing some inaccuracy in my  vernier, it suggests to me that Airfix made the windows on the TSO moulds a different size to those on the FO ones.  That leaves me with a question, someone on here will know the answer (Brian Kirby!)  - were the windows all the same size?

all the best

Godfrey

[Godfrey Glyn]

Sorry to cross the various posts, but now I am totally confused and sorry to add further  to it! Curiouser and curiouser as someone said in Alice in Wonderland. I did measure three of the inserts from each pack, but happy to leave it to you guys to plough on!

all the best

Godfrey

[BigAndy]

Think I'm done Godfrey! There will always be a difference of opinion and that's what makes this hobby of ours great. Long may it continue.......

 

I'm off to bury myself knee deep in some Hornby plastic swarf.........

 

laters

 

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

MJI wrote " Odd one person finds it well out and someone else correct, could it be different moulds?"

 

I am making the assumption that the Lazerglaze inserts were designed to fit the windows on the Airfix coaches. So just to add to the confusion - the Lazerglaze inserts for the 2d TSO are different to those which are designed for the 2d FO. According to my vernier gauge ( Its a Rabone Superpolyamid one) the inserts for the TSO are 20.2 mm x 8.9 mm whilst the FO ones come out at  19.9mm x 8.5mm. Now even allowing some inaccuracy in my  vernier, it suggests to me that Airfix made the windows on the TSO moulds a different size to those on the FO ones.  That leaves me with a question, someone on here will know the answer (Brian Kirby!)  - were the windows all the same size?

all the best

Godfrey

 

Well Airfix (or was it Mainline by then?) certainly made their TSO quite awhile after bringing out the BSO and FO. I'd better check? I'm all for modelling excellence, and the Shawplan etches certainly improve the Airfix (unless you DIY glaze the outer frame provided), but it's not so clear cut with the Hornby and in my view borderline, replacement involves a mountain of work, although of course you can correct the livery faults at the same time, you could also take the opportunity to use a lighter shade of Rail Blue. If only life wasn't so short . . . . . 

 

                                                                                         Cheers, Brian.

[mark54]

 

Sorry Godfrey, but Brian's frames are spot on. 20 mm x just over 8.5 mm (closer to 8.6mm ). I don't have a digital measuring device, so those measurements I gave were from a steel rule......

 

However, I have now spoken to my mate at Northern Belle and can confirm the following:

 

Distance from underside of cantrail to the outside of the window frame is 9.25 inches (3.08mm in 4mm scale).

Distance from underside of cantrail to the inside of the window frame is 11.5 inches (3.83mm in 4mm scale).

 

That puts the centreline of the frame at 3.455mm from the cantrail, as near as damn it to the 3.5 mm on the model.

 

Dimensions of the window itself are 26 x 60 inches, which is 8.66 x 20mm in 4mm scale.

 

From what I can see, Hornby have made the following mistake. A Mk2 air con frame is made from alluminium with a lower milled, outer edge ( as per the Extreme etchings frame ), then there is a raised section of this alluminum frame which in turn is immendiately next to the glazing......... ( This is why on ScotRail Mk3's, you can see an alluminum colour different from the rest of the grey around the windows - they masked off the outer and lower part of the frame leaving the inner raised part of the frame in silver )

 

Having measured the Hornby Mk2E, the top of the frame is the correct distance from the cantrail ( 3.5 mm BUT THIS SHOULD BE THE OUTER PART OF THE FRAME, NOT THE INNER ) What Hornby have done for some inexplicable reason is to only measure the INNER part of the raised frame and use that as the overall size of the window frame ( on the Hornby model there is one continuous raised moulding around the whole apperture instead of the two part lower and raised frame wich Extreme Etchings have got spot on )

 

* What Airfix did was measure the WHOLE external apperture and made their frames to that measurement *

 

When you then take the 0.5 mm or so on the EE frames around the outer, lower part of the frame and add that in total, it becomes apparent that although Hornby got the glazing apperture not far off, due to the original mis-measurement of the whole frame. their frames on the MK2E are to short and too far up the body by just over 1mm..............deep breath........

 

This is what gives the model an odd look and from my first hackings at the Hornby frames, I have opened them up to what they should be and the difference is apparent.

 

Some modellers may think I'm being pernickety about this difference and that's fine, this is just my own opinion. However, when you start moving bits of livery up and down to mask the fact that they've measured the windows completely wrong, then that's when the visual differences start to appear. No doubt some modellers will pick holes in my own modelling, and again that's fine - but I want to get my models looking as real as my own limited skills will allow.

 

I am fortunate in that I have the tools and eyesight ( for now - we're all getting older ) that will allow me to rectify this error and attempt to make the Hornby MK2E a better looking coach.

 

cheers for now

 

Andy

 

Andy, so what you are saying if I understand you correctly, is that the apertures are basically the right size, but they are too high up the body by about 0.5mm and the frames are too thin by the same amount. Therefore the bottom of the Hornby frame (underneath aperture) is 1mm too high up the coachside.

[BigAndy]

Andy, so what you are saying if I understand you correctly, is that the apertures are basically the right size, but they are too high up the body by about 0.5mm and the frames are too thin by the same amount. Therefore the bottom of the Hornby frame (underneath aperture) is 1mm too high up the coachside.

 

Yeah, that's basically about it in a nutshell Mark. It doesn't sound much does it, but because Hornby have then moved the various livery variations to accomodate this, it's what makes the coach look wrong.

 

If you're going to try and rectify it, then it's going to be a repaint - which means a strip down so whilst doing that, the EE etchings may as well be fitted to get that authentic look.......

 

I would be interested to see if someone kept the Hornby frames as they were, but just resprayed the body, to see what difference it makes. As Brian Kirby says, I kind of made a rod for my own back initially, because I went to the extent of reshaping the tumblehomes and fitting EE frames to my Airfix/Hornby Mk2D's - with the 2E's also being mixed in amongst these 2D's, I've really got to fit the EE frames so that everything matches. ( It's not a problem as the EE frames are beautiful little pieces of kit )

 

cheers

 

Andy

[MJI]

Airfix 2D

 

Blue box was FO and BSO, the TSO first appeared as the brown GMR.

 

Mine are FOs all blue, BSOs all blue, TSOs mix of GMR and Mainline

[Brian Kirby]

Can somebody please pinpoint any livery problem caused by the window frames on this corrected Hornby 2E TSO? Do the Hornby window frames ruin the overall appearance?

 

 

Many years ago i was advised that the Airfix 2D bodies suffered from oversize window frames, they looked slightly bigger to me, but still within reasonable tolerance. These examples were re-glazed using tinted acetate cut to fit the outer Airfix rims. I'm happy with them.

 

                                                            Cheers, Brian.

 

[mark54]

A definite improvement on the blue/grey, Brian. Let's hope Hornby amend their 2nd batch!

 

The Airfix apertures are slightly larger than the Extreme Etches. However the Airfix sides are very thick and there is a pronounced taper inwards. If you take a measurement on the inside of the body, it is smaller. The main problem with the Airfix windows is that the corner radius is too tight, giving them a square look. The addition of the etches makes a huge improvement.

[MrB]

Having looked at the Mk2's in my local shop, I have to say the blue/grey ones are off, but the Intercity TSO's are right.. No sagging, No visible under frame as some of the others have....

 

It must be the batch..

 

Anyone tried a cocktail stick and t-cut to remove the door locking print yet?

 

First thing I am going to do..

Sadly I wish that was the case, but all MK2Es from Hornby have the same under frame issues. I sadly have at least one of each livery and type and they are all the same, I really wish I hadn't bought any.

 

Regards

 

MrB

Edited January 7, 2015 by MrB

[BigAndy]

Just had a delivery from UPS - 150 very lovely Roe-vac vents.

 

Done most of the major hacking to the FO now, all the raised detail is off and all the windows opened out. Underframe has been hacked as per Brain Kirby's post, Em wheelsets fitted to Bachmann B4's, soj ust got to fit the Roe-vac vents then I can start with the undercoat and painting into ScotRail.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[BigAndy]

Just another small nugget of info for those interested. We know the Hornby Roe-vac vents are a complete work of fiction in their shape etc, however, they are also totally in the wrong place on the FO.

 

At the air-con hatch end, the vent should be on the NON toilet side  (as is, it's on the toilet side of the roof ) and at the other end of the coach, the Roe-vacs should be side by side and equally spaced from each other ( as per the airfix 2D roofs ).....

 

Just thought I'd share it.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Andy, but we'd sussed the roof vent positions from post #272 onwards (with pics). How long is it going to take you to convert and repaint a ten-coach rake? Second thoughts i suppose ScR rakes to Glasgow Queen St. would be limited to 7 or 8 coaches?

 

                                                                                                   Cheers, Brian.

[BigAndy]

Thanks Andy, but we'd sussed the roof vent positions from post #272 onwards (with pics). How long is it going to take you to convert and repaint a ten-coach rake? Second thoughts i suppose ScR rakes to Glasgow Queen St. would be limited to 7 or 8 coaches?

 

                                                                                                   Cheers, Brian.

 

 

Thankfully, I don't need 10 coach rakes or even 7/8 coach rakes. The Queen St - Aberdeen shoves which featured mainly the Aircon MK2's and some of the disc braked Mk2's were usually 4 or 5 Mk2's and a DBSO or thereabouts.

 

TBH, I don't really mind how long it takes me as I enjoy the modelling. I'm also in the process of building Queen St station as well, so I split my time and swap whenever I feel like it, so there's no rush - Rome wasn't built in a day.........

 

Once I get on a roll with dipping/stripping/detailing and spraying, things start appearing quite quickly. I've yet to start on the myriad of 101's and 107's that I'll need.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[YK 50A]

Out of interest and slightly off topic, are you doing anything with the underframes and bogies with the disk braked Mk2Zs?  I only ask as I have several coaches sat in boxes waiting for me to do a Mk2Z Edinburgh/Glasgow push and pull rake.  I wonder whether I will ever get round to it, but ho hum.

 

Thanks,

Alun

[BigAndy]

Out of interest and slightly off topic, are you doing anything with the underframes and bogies with the disk braked Mk2Zs?  I only ask as I have several coaches sat in boxes waiting for me to do a Mk2Z Edinburgh/Glasgow push and pull rake.  I wonder whether I will ever get round to it, but ho hum.

 

Thanks,

Alun

 

TBH Alun, I haven't studied them closely enough yet to comment on what needs doing to them. I tend to closely study what I'm doing at the time - I'm not particularly prototype savvy, so I have to study each new project quite closely to get a bit of an understanding of it.

 

When I get around to doing some, I'll start a bit of a blog if you like and we can bounce ideas around - I've only done a couple of the Mk3's at the mo, using the Joueff model as the basis, so that's abother story.......

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Flood]

Out of interest and slightly off topic, are you doing anything with the underframes and bogies with the disk braked Mk2Zs?  I only ask as I have several coaches sat in boxes waiting for me to do a Mk2Z Edinburgh/Glasgow push and pull rake.  I wonder whether I will ever get round to it, but ho hum.

 

Thanks,

Alun

For Kirkhill we just cut the brake shoes off the Bachmann bogies, added Bachmann disk brake wheel sets (I don't know where Glenn found them) and I used Airfix air brake cylinder mouldings from some scrap air-cons.

 

Big Andy: I'm hoping you are not going to use Mk2E TSO coaches on your Aberdeen push-pull rakes as although the firsts were four Mk2Es and a Mk2F the air-con TSOs and TSOTs were Mk2D stock.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Flood