Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris,

 

When A C Stadden gave you the info re dates of prototypes did he say that his prototypes were all one company, or across a few?

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

I did not ask him specifically and he did not say.  Given the way that we have at least two types of porter and two types of station master I assume that they must be different companies.  If he admitted they were all GWR or GER then they would lose their appeal to some people.  When I have looked I think that uniforms were fairly generic with maybe different colours.

[Anotheran]

If he admitted they were all GWR or GER then they would lose their appeal to some people.

 

Good point! I won't ask either as I like them and will use them, so I don't want to know that they were based solely on the Caledonian!

It's also good news that he's planning more sets with engine staff and children. All good stuff!

 

Thanks for all of the information Chris!

[ChrisN]

Good point! I won't ask either as I like them and will use them, so I don't want to know that they were based solely on the Caledonian!

It's also good news that he's planning more sets with engine staff and children. All good stuff!

 

Thanks for all of the information Chris!

 

Neil,

You may ask, although I know you have not yet, will this stop me modifying other figures or buying Aiden Campbell or MRD ones.  The answer is of course 'No'.  I will probably use those along with Langley ones inside coaches and of course modifying means that I will have different figures.  I do have a parade so I may need people to watch it and if I ever build my narrow gauge line there should be a market square.

[Donw]

Chris I thought I had sent this to you but cannot see it so I will post it on here.

 

From the 1094 working time book details of the Through Coaches

 

 

Don

 

edit 1094??? sorry 1904

Edited February 12, 2015 by Donw

[ChrisN]

Chris I thought I had sent this to you but cannot see it so I will post it on here.

 

From the 1094 working time book details of the Through Coaches

 

Cambrian through coaches.jpg

 

Don

 

edit 1094??? sorry 1904

 

Don,

Thank you.  Yes you did send it to me and I have been working from this to find the equivalent trains in 1895.  My post was more about where in the train the through carriages were rather than did they run.  I would assume that they would have been marshalled in the same place every time to facilitate ease of working and it would look as though they were behind the engine.  I have seen a couple of pictures in the Christansen book that would appear to have through coaches on them and they make a marked contrast to the normal local stock.

 

Thank you again.

[Donw]

Ah that is a much more difficult question. I suspect the palcement of any through coaches was more important at Rhuabon, Whitchurh or Welshpool and it is mattered in those places some instruction would have come down. I have been trying to work out how to handle them at Dolgelley. At least there the order could be changed so the Cambrian and the GWR could choose the order to suit themselves.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Ah that is a much more difficult question. I suspect the palcement of any through coaches was more important at Rhuabon, Whitchurh or Welshpool and it is mattered in those places some instruction would have come down. I have been trying to work out how to handle them at Dolgelley. At least there the order could be changed so the Cambrian and the GWR could choose the order to suit themselves.

 

Don

 

Don,

I think I said on your thread that all the through coaches I had seen were behind the engine.  After I had posted this I then saw one at the back, but this was going down to Aberystwyth.  It would make sense if they marshalled them in the same place every day then the shunting would be the same and they would not have to work it out every time.  If it was behind the Cambrian engine would this mean that the Cambrian engine collected it/them?

 

Once you start looking for through coaches then I think there are more pictures than I first imagined.  Also in Christiansen there is a picture of what could be a Volunteer Class with a through train of clerestory stock which puts through trains back before 1895 but I assume that this would be a summer only event.  I cannot imagine there would be enough custom to do this in winter.

 

I have set in motion the process the buy the Archive that has the article about through coaches.

[ChrisN]

I decided to use my brain in relation to this picture of Barmouth/ Aberdovey.  I realised that I had not looked at Aberdovey to see if it looked similar.  I decided to use Mr Google again and street view never went near the station!  What to do?  I had to fall back on old technology, yes a book.  I looked in C. C. Green's Coast Lines Vol 2 at Aberdovey, and guess what?  It looks nothing like that picture, neither does it have the structure underneath the footbridge.  So the answer is clear; it is definitely Barmouth and I will have to consider again making a footbridge.

[Donw]

I think you are right Chris, although there was a fire at Aberdovey in the 19th century but no sign of any crossing.

Don

[corneliuslundie]

A friends thought that some people on RMWeb would like this photo:

Apparently Aberdovey in the 1870s. Cambrian Railways but identified only on the plate.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

That picture is very interesting.  It is darker than the later colour I think but not as dark as the ones I have painted.  Also they have ties between the axles, (name escapes me.)  Now would they have survived like this until 1895?

[buffalo]

Tie bars appear to be more common on early wagons than we might expect. What suprised me was the size of the buffer bases, much higher than the headstocks or solebars and appearing to be screwed into the wagon floor at the top. Many railways didn't bother with painted owner details on the sides in early days because their wagons were not intended to travel over other companies rails, though I suspect this isn't the whole story with the Cambrian. Any idea when they started to paint company name and logo on wagon sides?

 

Nick

[ChrisN]

Nick,

Yes, this is interesting.  I am not sure if the headstocks are not all behind the buffers but I agree they look much larger than on my model.  A casual glance and they look like the same wagons as I built earlier but they are not drop sided ones looking at the iron work on the corners.  Any idea how long this type survived?  It appears that I shall be trawling through my books again to see if I can see any; it looks a both easy and fiendishly difficult mod to do.

 

I will serve first and if anyone wishes to bat it back because I am wrong then not a problem.  I think that from the discussions just before Christmas that they did not put the name on the wagons until the end of the 1890s at the earliest.  I think I also might have read ii in one of the Christiansen books so I will go and double check.

[ChrisN]

Christiansen states that Cam Rys with the Prince of Wales feathers was used from 1902.  Kinder states that in later days the wagons had Cambrian on the sides where before they had Cam Rys.  I think this would indicate that there was no marking before 1902.

 

Also of interest Christiansen states that new wagons with sprung buffers were built from 1880 but that dumb buffers were not removed until a program started in 1900 to replace them with sprung ones

[corneliuslundie]

I notice that there are wooden brake blocks on the far side of the wagon. A pity we can't see the brake lever, though there is a guide, or in fact the way the brake works. At this period some wagons used what are termed "toggle" brakes, but I don't know about the Cambrian.

 

I fancy building one or two, though I am gradually getting too many early wagons for my Rhymney Railway layout (still to be built); but they are fun. But first I must build a pair of ex-Cambrian timber wagons for Sarn. In view of Chris's question I shall try to remember to take photos as I go along as they are similar in structure to the Mid Wales Railway ones although a lot more modern.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

I notice that there are wooden brake blocks on the far side of the wagon. A pity we can't see the brake lever, though there is a guide, or in fact the way the brake works. At this period some wagons used what are termed "toggle" brakes, but I don't know about the Cambrian.

 

I fancy building one or two, though I am gradually getting too many early wagons for my Rhymney Railway layout (still to be built); but they are fun. But first I must build a pair of ex-Cambrian timber wagons for Sarn. In view of Chris's question I shall try to remember to take photos as I go along as they are similar in structure to the Mid Wales Railway ones although a lot more modern.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I was not sure whether to press 'Like' or 'Thanks'.  The making of a timber wagon would be very interesting.

 

I have found pictures of the above wagon type on page 47 of Christiansen 'Portrait of a Railway' linked to a drop sided version on the Kerry Tramway and again on page 97 in the workshop in 1907 so I will have to modify a few, but empty ones as there is no point in modifying them then covering them up with a tarpaulin.

 

Edit to change 67 to 97. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by ChrisN

[Donw]

Nigel Digby did a series on liveries in BRM June 1999 covered the Cambrian. On wagon stock the advice is that in early days the number was on the ends  with an eliptical plate with CAMBRIAN and RAILWAY around the number until 1990 when the word changed to RAILWAYS from 1899 the CAM RYS with the feather was used. I note the colour shown in the illustration with CAM RYS seems somewhat lighter. Thanks are given to Mike Lloyd and CC Green for their assistance.

Don

[ChrisN]

Nigel Digby did a series on liveries in BRM June 1999 covered the Cambrian. On wagon stock the advice is that in early days the number was on the ends  with an eliptical plate with CAMBRIAN and RAILWAY around the number until 1990 when the word changed to RAILWAYS from 1899 the CAM RYS with the feather was used. I note the colour shown in the illustration with CAM RYS seems somewhat lighter. Thanks are given to Mike Lloyd and CC Green for their assistance.

Don

 

Don,

Thank you for that.  I find it interesting that the Christiansen book was out about the same time but had a different date for the new livery.  I think that I read on the instructions of the 2 plank Cambrian kit that the previous colour was darker so chose a dark grey at random.  Looking at the picture above it appears lighter than my two dark ones but maybe that is just the photograph appearing pale.

 

It has made me look at photos of wagons again to glean the details but most photographers are like I was as a child, the loco was the important thing, and trucks and coaches were just things to hang on the back of them to give them something to do.

[corneliuslundie]

Some other Cambrian wagons seem to have buffer stocks that are deeper than the solebar, including the timber wagon I am looking at at the moment. And I think that Dragon Models does a kit for a wagon very similar to the one a few posts above in 7mm. I came across a photo of a completed one on the web when searching for something else.

 

Despite my having at least a dozen different types of buffer, I have none with square bases, so an order has gone off to Wizard Models, though I think even those will require a bit of attention with a file as the buffer bases in the photo above seem to be almost star shaped with the bolt holes in the points of the star (clear as mud?) Quarryscapes of this parish also does Cambrian wagon buffers, but the photos on his website are not good enough to tell quite what they look like. I spent some time this evenign assembling components for the timber wagons so there should be something to show on the Sarn thread next week.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

In the Christiansen book, 'Portrait of a Railway' it has a picture on page 97, (not 67 as I said earlier), of this wagon and a headstock.  The base of the buffer is a circle but in four places that match the corners of the wooden block underneath there is a metal circle through which the bolt goes to hold it in place, giving a four pointed star.

[ChrisN]

This will be the last post for a bit about staff as although they are getting painted it will take a while.  I will finish all the ones who find employment which brings me on to my question.  How many staff should there be?

 

The Middleton Press book, 'Barmouth to Pwllheli' quotes staff numbers in the 1930s, and they are as follows:-

Barmouth 30

Harlech 5

Penryndydreath 5

Portmadoc 30 (including engine staff)

Criccieth 8-10

 

Now Barmouth was quite a big station and Portmadog  had an engine shed.  Traeth Mawr has a passing loop, a goods siding and a bay platform, a loop for coal and the exchange of slate with the narrow gauge railway, and maybe another coach siding.  The station was the end point for the Dolgelley trains, a passenger goods, and four through coaches.  So what is your guess on the number of staff?  The staff in the thirties would be paid more so would they have less staff, or did the long hours worked by railwaymen in the Victorian period mean less staff, or the same staff employed differently?

 

So far I have thought about, a station master, clerk for selling tickets, ticket collector, two porters to meet the trains to carry luggage plus other duties, a Goods Shed porter to deal with the freight, and a shunter.  Would I need a Goods porter to deal with packages and forwarded luggage?  A ticket inspector?  Who would load the slates in the exchange sidings?  Is there a book somewhere which would have all this in or is every station too different?

 

Answers on a postcard please, or else just post below.

 

Thank you,

 

And if you have been, thanks for looking.

[Stubby47]

A goods booking clerk might be needed, plus a second ticket/admin clerk in the main office.

Maybe a second Goods porter too, especially if there is a goods hoist/crane.

 

If all the staff are out 'on show', there might be additional staff milling about.

[Steve Sykes]

Signalmen?

[Mikkel]

An interesting question Chris. I agree about an extra porter, maybe also a lad porter who would not have cost much.

 

Are there any staff group photos that could help give a rough idea? 

Edited February 16, 2015 by Mikkel

[corneliuslundie]

I suspect those numbers did include signalmen, possibly for your station one full signalman and one porter/signalman.

 

If it is an exchange siding for the slates I wonder if the slate quarry might employ whoever transfers the slates to standard gauge. Apart from anything else, I am not sure the railway company would want the responsibility for dealing with a fragile cargo like slates. Is there any evidence what happened with the Plynlimon & Hafan exchange siding (I know it wasn't operational for long) as it is probably more like yours than Minffordd or Portmadoc? I'll see if there is anything in the book I have about the line, though there are others I think.

 

Ticket inspectors would not be attached to small stations but might well change trains there and be hanging around on the platform.

 

If there is a goods shed with an office then it would need a clerk. If there isn't enough goods traffic to justify a goods shed then the paperwork would have been done in the main office and there might well not have been a separate goods clerk.

 

Let's see. As a minimum you would need the stationmaster plus an early turn and late turn minion to sell and collect tickets, light and tend the waiting room and other fires, clean the station daily, and keep the books up to date; two individuals to man the signalbox; someone to do deliveries (who might be one of the minions mentioned above and might well use a barrow); and someone in the goods yard. How many of these double up and how many of the positions need two or more people will depend on how busy the station is. I assume there is no refreshment room (not impossible as Moat Lane had one) in which case you need a couple of young ladies plus their manager (male or female but definitely smartly dressed) who may work for a catering company rather than the railway.

 

Of course some of these staff would be present but not visible as they would be inside buildings.

 

Although not directly applicable to the Cambrian, quite a few of the line histories, especially GWR ones, have information on the staff at various dates, though from memory I can't remember too many from such an early date as 1895.

 

Jonathan