The London Festival of Railway Modelling 2014 - March 22/23

[Andy Y]

Children do train sets adults do railway modelling,

I understand what we may like to think about the marketplace but the reality (backed up by a large survey we did, conversations we have with exhibition visitors and buyers I see in shops) is that there's far more people (inc. adults) with 6' x 4's and basic scenery out there in the hobby than there are with what would be conventionally considered as 'exhibition layouts'. More people buy RTR than kits; more people leave a loco pristine than weather it and more people want to buy stuff than make it. Therefore there should be some shows and some exhibits which feature content that those people can relate to as opposed to just the finest.

 

Railex suits me as a show but it may not appeal to others even if it features some of the best content possible.

[Pete 75C]

Children do train sets adults do railway modelling

 

If that's true, I really must up my game. Looking at some of my past efforts, I'm obviously 46 going on 9...

[Glorious NSE]

I understand what we may like to think about the marketplace but the reality (backed up by a large survey we did, conversations we have with exhibition visitors and buyers I see in shops) is that there's far more people (inc. adults) with 6' x 4's and basic scenery out there in the hobby than there are with what would be conventionally considered as 'exhibition layouts'. More people buy RTR than kits; more people leave a loco pristine than weather it and more people want to buy stuff than make it. Therefore there should be some shows and some exhibits which feature content that those people can relate to as opposed to just the finest.

 

And even allowing for that broad range, to my eye there was plenty there that was aspirational (to me) in quality.

 

(Whether that says more about me than them i'll leave up to you...)

[Coombe Barton]

That fits in well with my "view" that of those who actually do have a layout of some description, something like 70% of them will be what could be called "train-sets" - I think that concept gets completely overlooked all too often.

We might think of them as train sets, they probably think of them as model railways.

 

Perception, perception, perception.

[t-b-g]

When I was a beginner (a long time ago but it was true once!) I went to exhibitions with my dad. I didn't really enjoy the beginners layouts at the shows because if I wanted to see that sort of thing I had my own train set at home.

 

I enjoyed seeing the really good layouts. These were the ones where people with skills and abilities that I wanted to learn had made things for themselves, rather than buying them.

 

To suggest that people want to go to exhibitions to see entry level layouts is, In my mind, a fallacy. I always wanted to come away inspired to try something new and more ambitious, not thinking "That is just like mine".

 

There should be room for a "show you how" approach, either via a layout, perhaps under construction, or via demo stands. But to me, the shows I remember as being inspirational are the ones with the good quality layouts, not the ones full of RTR and entry level stuff.

 

Tony 

[Kenton]

 

I understand what we may like to think about the marketplace but the reality (backed up by a large survey we did, conversations we have with exhibition visitors and buyers I see in shops) is that there's far more people (inc. adults) with 6' x 4's and basic scenery out there in the hobby than there are with what would be conventionally considered as 'exhibition layouts'. More people buy RTR than kits; more people leave a loco pristine than weather it and more people want to buy stuff than make it. Therefore there should be some shows and some exhibits which feature content that those people can relate to as opposed to just the finest.

 

In that case it is obvious that the narrow gauges, finer gauges and esoteric scales gauges form a very small minority wing of the hobby. The minority group that we are defining as something "fine scale" and we are asking to dominate all expos and RMWeb.

 

 

That fits in well with my "view" that of those who actually do have a layout of some description, something like 70% of them will be what could be called "train-sets" - I think that concept gets completely overlooked all too often.

... and getting even smaller

 

As most on here will know I detest the terminology of both "train set" and "fine scale" when describing any model railway. As if there is some defining bridge that can be crossed from one to the other. My layouts are all train sets. I build kits, some would say that mere fact makes the end product "fine scale" simply because others cannot (I prefer to think choose not to). When I build a kit to EM or even P4 does that make it any more "fine scale" If I choose not to weather anything does that make it any less "fine scale"

 

The quality and fidelity of any layout or layout component is a variable and based on judgement. A 6x4 layout is no more a "train set" than any other layout size. A perfect scale scratch built model of a loco painted and weathered to match a photo of the prototype is no more "fine scale" than many RTR offerings. What is that photo any way, just an image in point in time that was taken due to fortunate circumstances, it does not make it unique. It doesn't make any difference either because this is not reality, it is what we want it to be, our imagination and mixture of nostalgia and fantasy.

 

All I see in the use of these terms is division and the "my layout is better than yours". I am not saying there are many layouts we can each judge as being better in some way than our own. An appreciation that I would hope even the best layout owners can make of others (unless they are so truly conceited). So anyone with a simple layout, a circle of Peco settrack, can appreciate the next layout as a step up in the game. This hobby should encourage aspiration to build something better in their eyes not to be told some standard or proclaimed "best".

 

I've seen too many so called "fine scale" layouts that are very uninspiring and plenty of so called "train sets" that are entertaining and should make their owners proud.

 

A railway modeller.

[Ryde-on-time]

When I was a beginner (a long time ago but it was true once!) I went to exhibitions with my dad. I didn't really enjoy the beginners layouts at the shows because if I wanted to see that sort of thing I had my own train set at home.

 

I enjoyed seeing the really good layouts. These were the ones where people with skills and abilities that I wanted to learn had made things for themselves, rather than buying them.

 

To suggest that people want to go to exhibitions to see entry level layouts is, In my mind, a fallacy. I always wanted to come away inspired to try something new and more ambitious, not thinking "That is just like mine".

Just because you felt that was about more basic layouts does not mean everyone else does?

[t-b-g]

Just because you felt that was about more basic layouts does not mean everyone else does?

 

Can't speak for everybody, just me.

 

All I was saying was that it is a bit of a sweeping statement to say that relative beginners want to go to a show to see beginners layouts. I always wanted to see things that I could learn from and aspire to, not what I was already doing.

 

Tony

[sub39h]

I see the point people are trying to make about having simpler layouts at exhibitions, but surely that misses the point of an exhibition? Generally speaking industry exhibitions are either 1) to show the best of the best or 2) to show new innovations in the field. 

 

If I go to an exhibition I want to be wowed. I want to see things I can aspire to. I want to get ideas.

 

I am very much a beginner. I returned to the hobby about 18 months ago aged 26 after having a train set as a boy. I've never built a permanent layout before (though plans are in place for one for this coming summer). I wouldn't go to an exhibition if all that was on show was something I could already do myself. I imagine that kids are also wowed by the detail and realism of the top quality layouts - I remember as a child thinking that my Hornby Class 91 was the coolest thing ever and my imagination filled out the rest. 

 

If I was wanting to get my child in model railways instead of spending £20 odd on a family ticket to a show plus transport and food I'd save a little longer and buy them a train set. If I'm going to an exhibition I expect to see top quality layouts. 

[Kenton]

 

To suggest that people want to go to exhibitions to see entry level layouts is, In my mind, a fallacy.

I guess it all depends on what we each define as "entry level" and "entry" to what exactly?

 

Would you class Phil's building your first layout as "entry level" because that is the way it has been presented. A perfectly good and certainly exhibitable layout IMO that many would place in the "fine scale" bracket.

[Glorious NSE]

I enjoyed seeing the really good layouts. These were the ones where people with skills and abilities that I wanted to learn had made things for themselves, rather than buying them.

 

To suggest that people want to go to exhibitions to see entry level layouts is, In my mind, a fallacy. I always wanted to come away inspired to try something new and more ambitious, not thinking "That is just like mine".

 

There should be room for a "show you how" approach, either via a layout, perhaps under construction, or via demo stands. But to me, the shows I remember as being inspirational are the ones with the good quality layouts, not the ones full of RTR and entry level stuff.

 

I struggle to believe that anyone went to Ally Pally this year, looked carefully at all the layouts, saw only Ready to Run stuff, saw no spark of creativity anywhere, and thought "they are all just like mine".

 

(Just the difference between genre's, prototypes and scales covered by the 43 displays there should make the last of that nigh on impossible!)

 

I'm at something of a disadvantage here as I didn't actually get lots of time to look round, but the handful of layouts I did specifically look out for included some fabulous scenic work and plenty of "non-RTR" in evidence in the stock...

[station cat]

If that's true, I really must up my game. Looking at some of my past efforts, I'm obviously 46 going on 9...

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

I thought it was a pretty decent show although some of the smaller layouts were rather swallowed by the crowds and there did seem to be a shortage of traders catering to the more advanced end of the hobby. It certainly attracted a varied audience which is always good to see. I thought the transport situation was ok, longer trains and more buses would be better but they did seem to be making an effort to put extra buses on the W3.

[t-b-g]

I was busy this weekend so I couldn't go to Ally Pally. I was (hopefully) helping a group of very enthusiastic but relatively inexperienced modellers develop their skills on one of the Missenden Abbey weekends.

 

My comments were not aimed at Ally Pally, or beginners, or entry level layouts (or first efforts), or RTR stuff.

 

All I said was that, as a beginner myself, I didn't want to go to a show to see the same sort of stuff that I had at home.

 

If anybody wants to hold a different view about what they want to see at shows, please feel free to differ.

 

Tony

[t-b-g]

 I guess it all depends on what we each define as "entry level" and "entry" to what exactly?

 

Would you class Phil's building your first layout as "entry level" because that is the way it has been presented. A perfectly good and certainly exhibitable layout IMO that many would place in the "fine scale" bracket.

 

When I was starting out, that would have been light years ahead of what I was doing and I would have enjoyed seeing it very much indeed. Even nowadays, I like the look of it much more than a good number of exhibition layouts I have seen. The modelling is very neat and nicely done and the proprietary products have been used with a deal of thought as to how to make them look as though they belong there, rather than just being plonked on a board.

 

My problem is with the idea that if people have layouts at home that are pretty basic train sets, that they want to see similar things at exhibitions because it gives them something they can relate to. That is not how I thought as a beginner and it is not how I think now.

 

sub39h puts it very well in post 366.

 

Tony

[Glorious NSE]

I was busy this weekend so I couldn't go to Ally Pally.

 

Sorry i'd missed that - the thread just seemed to be trying to argue around a meme that all the layouts there were "train sets" and not inspirational - which certainly wasn't my impression of the others I saw.

[BanburyKev]

Was I the only attendee disappointed by the fact that, out of the 40 layouts scattered around both halls, not a one was of the LNER/BR(E or NE) persuasion in any scale/gauge?  This was what was missing for me and I could certainly put my finger on it.

PS  This statement is offered as "feedback".

Sabins End was running a selection of stock, including LNER & BR J11 and J50's.

[Pacific231G]

 I guess it all depends on what we each define as "entry level" and "entry" to what exactly?

 

Would you class Phil's building your first layout as "entry level" because that is the way it has been presented. A perfectly good and certainly exhibitable layout IMO that many would place in the "fine scale" bracket.

I think that was rather the point of Phil's layout. A relative or even a complete beginner could build it and, while learning a bunch of skills along the way, end up with a perfectly respectable layout that certainly wouldn't be out of place at a local exhibition. I'm also aware of how many famous layouts such as Charford and Berrow were someone's first serious attempt at layout building. I doubt if many people want to see a layout just like the 6x4 round and round they built for the kids at a major exhibition but they probably do want to see both excellent layouts that are beyond their scope- large club layouts for example- and others that they can reasonably aspire to. 

 

I

[Phil Parker]

I think that was rather the point of Phil's layout. A relative or even a complete beginner could build it and, while learning a bunch of skills along the way, end up with a perfectly respectable layout that certainly wouldn't be out of place at a local exhibition. I'm also aware of how many famous layouts such as Charford and Berrow were someone's first serious attempt at layout building. I doubt if many people want to see a layout just like the 6x4 round and round they built for the kids at a major exhibition but they probably do want to see both excellent layouts that are beyond their scope- large club layouts for example- and others that they can reasonably aspire to. 

 

I

 

Spot on. I tried to use reasonably simple techniques that anyone could copy and produce a "proper" model railway layout that you could happily show to your family or even at an exhibition. As I always say, it's not the ultimate layout you might aspire to but as a first step, if you can repeat something like it, then by the time you've finished, you'll have a much better idea what you want to do and how you can do it. That's why the emphasis was on building stuff rather than using too much ready to plonk to get to the finish as quickly as possible.

[BanburyKev]

Regarding 'train set layouts', the Northampton Group of the 3mm Society held our first exhibition a few weeks ago. It was a specialist show with 7 layouts, all 3mm except 1, and a couple of traders. Over 400 people paid to get in, we had a great day and made a good donation for the church where the show was held.

 

The layouts were all good standard, mainly end to end, but the one with the biggest crowd around all day was my Tri-ang TT display with 4 trains just going round! The kids plus mum & dad, which were in the majority of visitors loved it.

[Coombe Barton]

Ok, let's talk Family - mums, dads and kids.

 

Is it that a big roundy roundy, whatever the scale, level of modelling, and to some extent size, is seen as a "train set" that they can relate to while an end to end, BLT, shunting plank, whatever, is see as a "model Railway" that takes skill that's beyond them to achieve?

 

Or is it that the big continuous run has trains running whereas an end to end, BLT, plank etc has a perceived element of operational speciality that "you'd have to know about that" before approaching.

 

Or maybe to distill "Therte's only so much shunting the general public can take"

 

Discuss.

[t-b-g]

Regarding 'train set layouts', the Northampton Group of the 3mm Society held our first exhibition a few weeks ago. It was a specialist show with 7 layouts, all 3mm except 1, and a couple of traders. Over 400 people paid to get in, we had a great day and made a good donation for the church where the show was held.

 

The layouts were all good standard, mainly end to end, but the one with the biggest crowd around all day was my Tri-ang TT display with 4 trains just going round! The kids plus mum & dad, which were in the majority of visitors loved it.

 

Many exhibitions have a Hornby Dublo or O Gauge tinplate layout or even a Lego layout. They usually have a good response from the visitors, particularly those who used to have such railways themselves..

 

Such layouts don't necessarily reflect what people have on their own layouts at home but they do give them something that they can relate to.

[RJS1977]

As regards layouts with only RTR stock - given the ever-increasing range of stock now produced by the RTR manufacturers, if there was to be a bar on RTR stock being used on exhibition layouts, the range of stock that could be run at shows would rapidly diminish....

 

Of course,it's always useful to see a new model running on a layout at a show before deciding whether or not to purchase one!

 

Whilst the "we built everything ourselves" type of layouts are inspirational, not all of us have the spare time/energy to build everything from scratch. So seeing what can be done with proprietary products in a relatively short space of time is inspirational too - in a different way!

[Kenton]

 

Or maybe to distil "There's only so much shunting the general public can take"

 

Discuss.

All about attention span and concentration.

 

Anything wizzing past is about all that some can manage ... and it is not all about the youth, some older citizens can't remember much about the last train movement either!

 

Hence the excuse on a roundy-roundy to send the same train round several times - no one will notice it makes complete mockery of any layout operationally. But, heh, where do trains go round in short circles almost in sight of their tail lights?

 

At least with a BLT or end-to-end the concept of a returning train from some off scene destination is plausible ... though perhaps not in a 3 minute time span.

 

Do not forget it's only entertainment ... seen any magicians lately?

[t-b-g]

Ok, let's talk Family - mums, dads and kids.

 

Is it that a big roundy roundy, whatever the scale, level of modelling, and to some extent size, is seen as a "train set" that they can relate to while an end to end, BLT, shunting plank, whatever, is see as a "model Railway" that takes skill that's beyond them to achieve?

 

Or is it that the big continuous run has trains running whereas an end to end, BLT, plank etc has a perceived element of operational speciality that "you'd have to know about that" before approaching.

 

Or maybe to distill "Therte's only so much shunting the general public can take"

 

Discuss.

 

I sometimes think that it is very difficult for us model railway enthusiasts to to really put ourselves in the shoes of the non model railway enthusiast visitor to a show.

 

I have been involved with a good number of different types of exhibition layouts over the years and all types of layout can appeal to all types of visitor.

 

What I have found is that even a tiny shunting layout can appeal to non railway enthusiasts if the scenery is of the "pretty" variety and there are little cameo scenes for them to spot. It helps even more if we actually talk to the visitors and involve them. Just having a small building with a lift off roof and interior detail can lead to a 5 minute chat about how it was made.

 

Now if you have two basically similar layouts, where one has handbuilt scale track, kit or scratchbuilt locos stock and scenery and is being operated really well, comparing it to another with everything straight out of the box, unaltered, with resin buildings, also being operated nicely, I know which one would hold my attention longest. The non enthusiast visitor may not even notice the difference at first glance.

 

But that can change if you engage in conversation. It is still quite a shock to some visitors when you mention that a particular loco was actually made rather than bought and it can be a real eye opener to people who don't know the hobby well.

 

So perhaps we should be wary of making generalisations about what appeals to people and what doesn't.

 

Tony

[250BOB]

Ok, let's talk Family - mums, dads and kids.

 

Is it that a big roundy roundy, whatever the scale, level of modelling, and to some extent size, is seen as a "train set" that they can relate to while an end to end, BLT, shunting plank, whatever, is see as a "model Railway" that takes skill that's beyond them to achieve?

 

Or is it that the big continuous run has trains running whereas an end to end, BLT, plank etc has a perceived element of operational speciality that "you'd have to know about that" before approaching.

 

Or maybe to distill "Therte's only so much shunting the general public can take"

 

Discuss.

As young children, the majority of we Railway Modellers would probably have been more excited watching trains "running" in the countryside or through stations etc.,, and not shunting back and forth in a yard, interesting though that is for many. 

 

There are some wonderful modelling skills out there, and many on this forum show some excellent skills that many others admire.  But there are MANY others that mostly enjoy just running/playing trains, without worrying too much about the architecture surrounding the trains.

 

However.......pretty well ALL exhibition layouts concentrate on presenting a magnificent looking model in all scenic aspects as a first priority.....and this aspect is virtually NEVER criticised in these forums.   Certainly not criticised to the extent about trains running.  

 

We are always hearing criticism of layouts because they dont run smoothly, theres not enough trains running, they are running too fast etc etc.