The London Festival of Railway Modelling 2014 - March 22/23

[Pete 75C]

I remember my Dad taking me to a show in (near?) Sutton when I was about 8 or 9. He likened my interest in the layouts to a comparison between a cartoon and documentary. The roundies were the cartoons... the trains were usually moving too fast and there was always something happening to keep my attention, but the end-to-ends were the documentaries... as a child I didn't show the slightest interest. Roll on 30-odd years and the reverse is true. I like the idea of a small roundie as a home layout so you can just sit back and watch the trains go by, but I find an end-to-end more enjoyable and interesting to build and operate. And as for any debate on the merits of RTP resin structures, my scratchbuilding skills are limited to say the least so I have no problem using RTP if suitable... if that puts me firmly in the train set camp, rather than the "modelling" fraternity, so be it.

 

Edited because it dawned on me (with horror) that it was very nearly 40 years ago, not just "30-odd"... doesn't time fly when you're having kids and being a parent?!?

[250BOB]

I remember my Dad taking me to a show in (near?) Sutton when I was about 8 or 9. He likened my interest in the layouts to a comparison between a cartoon and documentary. The roundies were the cartoons... the trains were usually moving too fast and there was always something happening to keep my attention, but the end-to-ends were the documentaries... as a child I didn't show the slightest interest. Roll on 30-odd years and the reverse is true. I like the idea of a small roundie as a home layout so you can just sit back and watch the trains go by, but I find an end-to-end more enjoyable and interesting to build and operate. And as for any debate on the merits of RTP resin structures, my scratchbuilding skills are limited to say the least so I have no problem using RTP if suitable... if that puts me firmly in the train set camp, rather than the "modelling" fraternity, so be it.

 

And I suggest that there are very, very many like you. (and me)

[James Makin]

I'm probably in a weird minority but I go to shows mainly for atmosphere and the temptation of buying 'big stuff'!

 

I don't go to many shows, but I'll do larger ones like Warley or Ally Pally that offer a while day-out's worth of fun. I don't make shopping lists, and the smaller traders only appeal if I see something jumping out at me, I normally plan all my projects and buy specialist bits online, so for me the star attractions are RTR at heavily discounted prices and secondhand bargains, stuff I can vandalise by modelling effectively!

 

Sometimes a layout attending (eg a good one I've heard about on here) can influence the attending so you can chat to the owner, but I only ever get real inspiration from observing the prototype, never a model, so for me the attraction of a show is mainly down to lots of good, known (cheap) box-shifters all battling to offer the best prices on commodities - I thought I'd share this viewpoint as it is very perverse and different, shows you can never please everyone, but as it happened is think the Ally Pally guys did on this occasion!!

[Ravenser]

. But, heh, where do trains go round in short circles almost in sight of their tail lights?

 

 

The reversing loop at Ely North Junction come to mind.....

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Ok, let's talk Family - mums, dads and kids.

 

Is it that a big roundy roundy, whatever the scale, level of modelling, and to some extent size, is seen as a "train set" that they can relate to while an end to end, BLT, shunting plank, whatever, is see as a "model Railway" that takes skill that's beyond them to achieve?

 

Or is it that the big continuous run has trains running whereas an end to end, BLT, plank etc has a perceived element of operational speciality that "you'd have to know about that" before approaching.

 

Or maybe to distill "Therte's only so much shunting the general public can take"

 

Discuss.

 

In a similar vein, it is interesting to see the results of exhibitions who run a 'best in show'. Those that have been chosen by the club membership - or certain individuals - tend to be the a reflection the taste of the judges concerned (occasionally you'll get a Pempoul (Aaagh; Foreign!!!) or something of similar standard that makes the judges put personal preference to one side and actually have to go with the best in show!). When it is open to the public for a vote, again a really great quality layout will take it, but it has to be exceptional. If one of those is not present (and in my opinion there are very few truly exceptional layouts out there) it is usually the most entertaining, with plenty of activity and trains running.

 

The bottom line is, if it is a 'general' show, then the public (i.e. those with a passing curiosity, families, those older folk who want to go down  memory lane etc.) want to see trains running. That does not mean to say they are mugs who will put up with any old rubbish - most people recognise a reasonable standard of modelling when they see it.

[Pacific231G]

Ok, let's talk Family - mums, dads and kids.

 

Is it that a big roundy roundy, whatever the scale, level of modelling, and to some extent size, is seen as a "train set" that they can relate to while an end to end, BLT, shunting plank, whatever, is see as a "model Railway" that takes skill that's beyond them to achieve?

 

Or is it that the big continuous run has trains running whereas an end to end, BLT, plank etc has a perceived element of operational speciality that "you'd have to know about that" before approaching.

 

Or maybe to distill "Therte's only so much shunting the general public can take"

 

Discuss.

These days, except maybe on preserved lines, most members of the public will probably have never seen a real train being shunted. 

On the other hand I have seen a couple of local club shows where, rather than a Thomas type roundy round for the youngsters to try,  they have instead had a fairly rugged shunting layout- not always an Inglenook and one I saw was in 0 gauge- with a simple forward stop back switch to run it with. The youngsters- and a few oldsters as well- seem to have got much more from that experience of actually operating a model railway.   

 

It's not uncommon to have hands-on Inglenooks at shows but I wonder if there's mileage in a club producing a simple basic (and rugged) BLT designed specifically for the public to operate. If part of the purpose of exhibitions is to share the hobby with people who are not modellers then that could be a very good way of doing so.

[Nimbus]

These days, except maybe on preserved lines, most members of the public will probably have never seen a real train being shunted. 

 

Which goes for the operators as well, of course...

 

The Nim.

[Trainshed Terry]

Is it or has this thread become a tail chaser

 

Terry.

[trisonic]

These days, except maybe on preserved lines, most members of the public will probably have never seen a real train being shunted. 

On the other hand I have seen a couple of local club shows where, rather than a Thomas type roundy round for the youngsters to try,  they have instead had a fairly rugged shunting layout- not always an Inglenook and one I saw was in 0 gauge- with a simple forward stop back switch to run it with. The youngsters- and a few oldsters as well- seem to have got much more from that experience of actually operating a model railway.   

 

It's not uncommon to have hands-on Inglenooks at shows but I wonder if there's mileage in a club producing a simple basic (and rugged) BLT designed specifically for the public to operate. If part of the purpose of exhibitions is to share the hobby with people who are not modellers then that could be a very good way of doing so.

Maybe a  John Allen style "Timesaver" layout is appropriate? Shunting or Switching still practiced in the 'States because there are still plenty of active Shortlines even in a place like New Jersey.

 

Best, Pete.

[47137]

 All about attention span and concentration.

 

Anything wizzing past is about all that some can manage ... and it is not all about the youth, some older citizens can't remember much about the last train movement either!

 

Hence the excuse on a roundy-roundy to send the same train round several times - no one will notice it makes complete mockery of any layout operationally. But, heh, where do trains go round in short circles almost in sight of their tail lights?

 

At least with a BLT or end-to-end the concept of a returning train from some off scene destination is plausible ... though perhaps not in a 3 minute time span.

 

Do not forget it's only entertainment ... seen any magicians lately?

 

Visitors usually seem to need to see something moving within about ten seconds of their arrival at a layout. They only hold on longer if they can join in with a group of other visitors watching nothing happening.

 

I've put a circular 'test track' beside my operationally uninteresting BLT, and the continuous movement holds people for long enough to look at the BLT and start talking. This is a cheap alternative to running a prototypical schedule ;-).

[stewartingram]

The reversing loop at Ely North Junction come to mind.....

On our real railway we do it all the time. We call it the Circle Line.

 

(Of course nowadays, it isn't really a circle anymore, more a teacup, but hey....)

 

Stewart

 

(edit to remind those of that you that don't know, I'm talking about the Underground)

[Kenton]

 

On our real railway we do it all the time. We call it the Circle Line.

 

Not forgetting the clockwork orange

 

(Glasgow)

 

Now all together .. that really is Maaajic !

[Huw Griffiths]

These days, except maybe on preserved lines, most members of the public will probably have never seen a real train being shunted.

 

This is certainly true for me. I'm in my late 40's - and have been interested in all sorts of railed transport for as long as I can remember.

 

A lot of people are younger than me - also, a lot of people have never given railways a second glance (leave alone a second thought) - so I suspect the statement would also apply to a very large percentage of the population.

 

On the other hand I have seen a couple of local club shows where, rather than a Thomas type roundy round for the youngsters to try,  they have instead had a fairly rugged shunting layout- not always an Inglenook and one I saw was in 0 gauge- with a simple forward stop back switch to run it with. The youngsters- and a few oldsters as well- seem to have got much more from that experience of actually operating a model railway.   

 

It's not uncommon to have hands-on Inglenooks at shows but I wonder if there's mileage in a club producing a simple basic (and rugged) BLT designed specifically for the public to operate. If part of the purpose of exhibitions is to share the hobby with people who are not modellers then that could be a very good way of doing so.

 

Over the years, I've been to a number of the Barry & Penarth MRC open days - for a number of years, they've regularly set up a section of an old O gauge layout for precisely this purpose.

 

They've also been known to take a different switching layout to the Lord & Butler events - I think this one might have been HO scale - but it was rather more complex and used Kadee couplers, with track uncouplers in fixed locations - with wagons being "spotted" in accordance with cards. All very absorbing for punters (certainly for me) - and undoubtedly a good advertisement for both the club and the hobby.

 

 

Apart from this site, I'm also a member of a number of US model railway forum sites - and have heard of clubs arranging for shunting planks to be specially built to be used in this way at shows. In some cases, the layouts have also been built by teenage members of the clubs concerned.

 

 

Maybe a  John Allen style "Timesaver" layout is appropriate? Shunting or Switching still practiced in the 'States because there are still plenty of active Shortlines even in a place like New Jersey.

 

Best, Pete.

 

I'm certainly all in favour of puzzle layouts - and Timesavers (although inappropriately named) strike me as a good example of switching puzzle - they've always struck me as far more "involving" than tailchasers. The only thing for me is the same issue that affected GWR BLT layouts a few decades back - the same basic design has been built (and exhibited) by so many people / clubs that, perhaps, it might be time for somebody to come up with a new one.

 

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not slagging off tailchasers (and they work for some people) - and I'm certainly not slagging off Timesavers (they work for me). I prefer to keep my mind active. Various things I've seen and heard at shows suggest that I might not be alone in my opinion.

 

 

Huw.

[trisonic]

Huw, I meant for "demo" purposes, really.  Aimed at people moving from train sets.

 

Thanks for correcting the name, suffered brain fade.

 

Best, Pete.

[Brian D]

On our real railway we do it all the time. We call it the Circle Line.

 

(Of course nowadays, it isn't really a circle anymore, more a teacup, but hey....)

 

Stewart

 

(edit to remind those of that you that don't know, I'm talking about the Underground)

They were calling it a lasso when I worked for LU after changing the timetable for the new S stock

[Pacific231G]

 

 

I'm certainly all in favour of puzzle layouts - and Timesavers (although inappropriately named) strike me as a good example of switching puzzle - they've always struck me as far more "involving" than tailchasers. The only thing for me is the same issue that affected GWR BLT layouts a few decades back - the same basic design has been built (and exhibited) by so many people / clubs that, perhaps, it might be time for somebody to come up with a new one.

 

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not slagging off tailchasers (and they work for some people) - and I'm certainly not slagging off Timesavers (they work for me). I prefer to keep my mind active. Various things I've seen and heard at shows suggest that I might not be alone in my opinion.

 

 

Huw.

 

 

Puzzle layouts are fine and an Inglenook does make a very simple first move away from the tail chaser *. I was though thinking more of a very simple BLT to give people the experience of operating an actual layout- bring the train in (prepared by the operator in the fiddle yard) shunt a couple of wagons to or from the goods siding, run round  the train and send it back- withouy it being a brain teaser.

The Rev. P.H. Heath built his well known Piano Line with just four points as a self contained layout built from proprietary items to give youngsters a layout they could safely operate away from his rather more delicate 00n3 layout.

 

*The Timesaver is a bit odd. John Allen apparently built it as a game for his operators to challenge themselves with after sessions on the G&D. It is a very artificial track layout but seems to have become the one and only Official American Switching Puzzle. Other switching challenges are available and I rather prefer something like Paul Gittins' Peforia Narrows (5ft  x 9inches) http://www.tvnam.co.uk/layouts1.htm

[250BOB]

What is a Timesaver....????????????

[corax67]

Here you go Bob:

 

 

http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/sw-timesaver.html

[Michael Delamar]

 All about attention span and concentration.

 

Anything wizzing past is about all that some can manage ... and it is not all about the youth, some older citizens can't remember much about the last train movement either!

 

Hence the excuse on a roundy-roundy to send the same train round several times - no one will notice it makes complete mockery of any layout operationally. But, heh, where do trains go round in short circles almost in sight of their tail lights?

 

At least with a BLT or end-to-end the concept of a returning train from some off scene destination is plausible ... though perhaps not in a 3 minute time span.

 

Do not forget it's only entertainment ... seen any magicians lately?

 

 

I regularly do this, always told from when I was a kid and started operating at exhibitions "always keep something moving". even if nothing is moving when no one is in front of the layout as soon as someone is there move the trains about, doesnt matter what operation you are doing or even if you run the same train round in circles if you notice one person move away, run it back round again when someone new appears in front of the layout, I usually watch who is watching the layout just as much as what the trains are doing.

except on Lime Street however when hands are tied.

[PhilH]

 All about attention span and concentration.

Anything wizzing past is about all that some can manage ... and it is not all about the youth, some older citizens can't remember much about the last train movement either!

Hence the excuse on a roundy-roundy to send the same train round several times - no one will notice it makes complete mockery of any layout operationally. But, heh, where do trains go round in short circles almost in sight of their tail lights?

At least with a BLT or end-to-end the concept of a returning train from some off scene destination is plausible ... though perhaps not in a 3 minute time span.

Do not forget it's only entertainment ... seen any magicians lately?

Not necessarily..when we're operating Waton we often get the very young asking to see their favourite train, usually the HST. So we send it around, and we usually send it around again if they want it. It certainly makes my day to see their excited reactions, so in my eyes it's worth it.

 

Makes a change from some of the miserable s*ds you often encounter.....

[newbryford]

Not necessarily..when we're operating Waton we often get the very young asking to see their favourite train, usually the HST. So we send it around, and we usually send it around again if they want it. It certainly makes my day to see their excited reactions, so in my eyes it's worth it.

 

Makes a change from some of the miserable s*ds you often encounter.....

 

Likewise, the kids ask for the Pendolino - I can't bring myself round to tell them it's only a Voyager.

 

It's the adults that ask for the HST...........................

 

cheers,

Mick

[Crewlisle]

My 00 gauge layout ‘Crewlisle’ is set in the North West on the WCML from the mid 50's to the early 80's, the layout is on 3 interconnected levels with a central operating well and continuous run double track main line with portable overhead catenary for scale 100mph running on the middle level; 4 road terminus for 6 coach expresses and goods yard/coach sidings on high level; steam & diesel sheds on high level and reversing loop on lower level. Minimum radius is equivalent to second radius set curves inside the tunnels.  There are hidden crossovers in the tunnels to increase operating choices, but because they are hidden I have had to make sure there are enough lift out sections for access in case of 'accidents'! 

 

Now many of you might say, “Typical toy train set!”.  However the big question is, “Does it entertain and give a reasonable impression of the area it claims to represent?”.  The answer from the average exhibition visitor is “Yes”; from the perfectionists and rivet counters is “No.” or “How can he have the space for such a large layout”.  You may be surprised to know that it is all contained in a space of 2.6M x 2.3M. 

 

'Crewlisle' has appeared at the NEC four times (and will be returning in 2015), Alexandra Palace, Taunton and other exhibitions in the Southwest over the last few years and will be at the Hornby Magazine’s Great Electric Train Show this year because it entertains. Whilst not the largest or most detailed, it has always provoked many compliments and surprise at how much can be built in a 2.6M x 2.6M bedroom without looking too overcrowded.  I normally run a minimum of two locos and often as many as four trains simultaneously.   One thing to remember is that 50% of exhibition visitors are just average modellers or families out for a day’s entertainment.  To encourage the next generation of modellers, I allow children to have a go at shunting or running the train on the continuous run and stopping at the station – with one finger close to the controller stop button!  Other exhibitors should follow suit.  Many visitors to the exhibitions I have attended say, "It has something for everyone and it is good to see something moving" or they have changed their minds from building a terminus to fiddle yard layout to something more adventurous like mine. 

[roythebus]

So far I've built probably 4 exhibition layouts, the first in about 1968, a 6x4 roundy roundy which was operated as an end-to end; the famous Tidmouth Junction in the 1980's, a Thomas layout, 10 x 4 with double track main line, 2 track terminus, loco shed with turntable, goods yard and a Thomas branch line (even CJ Freezer wishes he'd thought of that track plan); New Annington the MRC's large layout, and Rath Ost, a small German HO layout.

 

The first only done a couple of MRC members days. Tidmouth was built for an exhbition in 2 weeks; Rath Ost started as a small terminus and was first showed at Hemel Hempstead show in about 1983 as track on a baseboard. People there watched this layout for ages..because it WORKED. That layout eventually had a spiral at one end leading to hidden loops so there was no hand shunting of stock. New Annington worked because that is what it was designed to do. My current home layout is being built with exhibitions in mind and there will always be something moving on it.

 

One thing I learnt when I joined the MRC in 1964 and got involved with its previous OO layout was "always make sure something is moving" and that is something I always look for in an exhibition layout. there is little excuse to have nothing moving for more than a minute. I lose interest rapidly if nothing moves, hence my growing dislike of some DCC layouts. I pay to see a good layout where things move, not watch someone apparently fiddling with a mobile phone type device. This may be why the Triang TT layout and the Hornby Dublo layouts attract so many viewers.

[grahame]

What is a Timesaver....????????????

 

Not reading this thread would be.

 

A lot of it seems to be going round and round and .... ;-)

 

G.

[250BOB]

 

One thing I learnt when I joined the MRC in 1964 and got involved with its previous OO layout was "always make sure something is moving" and that is something I always look for in an exhibition layout. there is little excuse to have nothing moving for more than a minute. I lose interest rapidly if nothing moves, hence my growing dislike of some DCC layouts. I pay to see a good layout where things move, not watch someone apparently fiddling with a mobile phone type device. This may be why the Triang TT layout and the Hornby Dublo layouts attract so many viewers.

 

That is such a shame why you ended by saying you are disliking some DCC operated layouts more and more......otherwise I was agreeing with you all the way.

 

I completely agree about having things moving all the time too........

 

But to say you dont pay to watch someone fiddling with a "mobile phone type device"...........that makes you sound a bit old fashioned, which I'm sure you are not.

 

Many DCC layouts, like mine, are not operated with "mobile phone like devices"............they ARE operated with a mobile phone......I use my iPhone to run my layout...and also my iPad....both completely wirelessly..........works great until I get a phone call.................and I'm 65, with no I.T. background whatsoever.