The London Festival of Railway Modelling 2014 - March 22/23

[Pacific231G]

Wow, I simply can't believe anyone would expect club members to put in the huge amount of time necessary to organise a show without wanting to make a big fat profit!

 

It is the profits generated from shows which help clubs to survive (and hence put on further shows) and to help pay for the exhibition layouts which we go to see. 

There have been clubs who've stopped exhibiting  because their exhibitions were losing money but very few have  given up on exhibitions because they weren't making enough to justify the effort. 

 

I see public exhibitions as having two purposes* . One is to help the finances of the organising club but that's not why layout owners who are not members give up their own time to take their layouts to shows and I'd see the other reason, which is to present their work and the hobby to a wider audience, as probably more important. It's also the satisfaction that any creative person gets from sharing their work with an audience that can appreciate it.

 

If the only purpose of a show was to raise money for the club then any other way of raising money would be equally valid from a Fete to a pub quiz evening but I doubt if members would be quite so keen to organise those.

 

Some years ago I was very actively involved in a fairly serious drama group (Serious enough that several of our members became professional actors)

We paid for our hobby by charging audiences to come and see our productions  but those productions in front of an audience were what made it all worthwhile. Putting on plays that we could be proud of while enabling as many of our members as possible to take part in them was extremely satisfying. Our productions did need to cover their costs - plus a bit for general group costs- but that wasn't why we did them. While I was involved in that I did come across a few drama groups that only did private play readings and workshops but without the focus of productions for real audiences they didn't seem to last very long.   

 

 

* There is of course a third purpose which is that it's where we tend to meet our fellow modellers. That social aspect is probably just as important!! 

[ullypug]

I've been too busy to post before now, but we had a good time exhibiting with Wheal Elizabeth over the weekend. Ok so the north circular was a car park but you know it's going to be.

Importantly we found a proper pub 20 mins walk from the hotel serving good food and proper beer. It's only taken 4 exhibitions to finally find one and we had a good evening with the Colinton crew on Sat night mulling over the joys of P4!

I thought the show was fine in terms of layouts with something for everyone. Probably the only thing was the lack of a large roundy roundy OO, but there were others in O and HO which not to my personal taste were well done in its own field. Certainly there were plenty of families about as well as the more serious enthusiast.

I'd have preferred to see a few more specialist traders but that's just me. There were enough to get just about anything you'd need.

Saw by far the biggest rucksack I've ever seen at a show. Must have been a full Bergen that could have got enough sandwiches into there to feed just about every exhibitor I reckon. Same old thing with whiplash/side swipe rucksack related injuries but that's just people being ignorant about others.

[Ryde-on-time]

There have been clubs who've stopped exhibiting  because their exhibitions were losing money but very few have  given up on exhibitions because they weren't making enough to justify the effort. 

 

I see public exhibitions as having two purposes. One is to help the finances of the organising club but that's not why layout owners who are not members give up their own time to take their layouts to shows and I'd see the other reason, which is to present their work and the hobby to a wider audience, as probably more important. It's also the satisfaction that any creative person gets from sharing their work with an audience that can appreciate it.

 

If the only purpose of a show was to raise money for the club then any other way of raising money would be equally valid from a Fete to a pub quiz evening but I doubt if members would be quite so keen to organise those.

 

Couldn't agree more. The club members and individuals with layouts or who do demos would not do it if they were not getting enjoyment from it. It's just that I'm happy for a club to make a healthy profit as well.

 

The club i belong to made several £1000's on there recent exhibition where I had an exhibit. That same exhibit will be shown at another clubs exhibition later this year were I have asked for a fraction of the costs because I am happy to support another club who's exhibition I enjoyed last year.

 

I can understand that clubs aren't for everyone but I think they do a lot of good for the hobby and I am happy to see as many as possible thrive

[Pacific231G]

Speaking as one of those who helped organise shows at Westminster, (Central Halls and Horicultural Halls) and Wembley, the MRC made very little profit from ANY of those shows. The shows in those days were organised by a separate company, latterly wholly-owned by The Model Railway Club. In a very few years the exhibition made a small profit. I more years, it broke even or made a loss.

 

The MRC steward do it because they love their hobby, they love their club, they love being PART of THE Exhibition. Warners have taken over the financial risk of running the show from the MRC and its subsidiary; any continuing losses may have seen the MRC  closing down after 100 years! As for organising clubs making a fat profit, get real.

This isn't a dig and it was quite some years ago but I've never really understood why the MRC, who effectively invented the model railway exhibition between the wars,  was the one large club that wasn't able to continue with its own exhibition. 

 

Having made the annual pilgrimage to Westminster for many years I remember the gaping hole that appeared in the hobby when the traditional Easter show disappeared. Was it simply that the perception of the exhibition as The National Show for the whole hobby made it into a monster that no club, even as large as the MRC, could have the human resources to manage without the tail wagging the dog or did the roots of the problem lie elsewhere?

[298]

Err Yes! You used the expression 'some profit' which to me can only mean a small or modest profit. I disagree.

 

I would think that a club exhibition would aim for at least a 50% profit on takings (assuming a good day) so that that if something out of their control happened (such as snow) whey would still stand a chance of covering their costs (hall rental etc) with the resultant lower turn out of punters

 

I think you'd struggle to find a show that generally makes more than a couple of quid profit per person, whether it be a small village hall or a major show. You can of course have a good day where an extra 500 people turn up (which would also make the traders happier) but a £7 show with a 2k attendance would have their profit wiped out if circumstances meant that they lost 25% of their punters. They could increase their ticket price to cover this, but then probably wouldn't get that level of attendance.

 

People criticise traders for not attending certain events because they aren't profitable and some say the only reason they do is to use the weekend as a loss-leading flag waver, in many ways some shows do the same by risking increasing the layout expenditure to try to attract more through the door and to increase the show's reputation so more people will wish to attend in the future. But as it was once noted, it'd be more profitable and less hassle for club members to spend an extra day at work and donate their wages for the day to the club instead of going through all of the hassle to organise and run a show...

[Mallard60022]

I have read this thread with interest. One thing that has been mentioned several times but not picked up on much is the attendance of what was described as families. I think it's great that folk can be bothered to go to quite an expensive (for family entry - was it?) model train show. However, these families may well have been interested in model trains and not just on a casual day out. Who really knows, but it is reassuring that 'outsiders' may still visit shows; some may even become inspired to have a go themselves, even if it is a starter set on the floor at home.

P

[PhilH]

I have read this thread with interest. One thing that has been mentioned several times but not picked up on much is the attendance of what was described as families. I think it's great that folk can be bothered to go to quite an expensive (for family entry - was it?) model train show. However, these families may well have been interested in model trains and not just on a casual day out. Who really knows, but it is reassuring that 'outsiders' may still visit shows; some may even become inspired to have a go themselves, even if it is a starter set on the floor at home.

P

 

And there could be the dichotomy - what's good for families usually doesn't sit well with the enthusiast, too bland, not enough fidelity, toy trains maybe.

 

Exactly the same divisions exist in the heritage railway sector - get it right for mum, dad and 2.4 you'll usually upset the cognescenti.

 

 

 

[bbishop]

Aye, and there's the rub. A (very) few finescale enthusiasts didn't bother going. Some of us felt there was something missing, myself included, although we have all struggled to put our finger on quite what it is. But remember this is Ally Pally, and it is targeted at Mom Pop and their 2.4. It's not advertised as a finescale show.

 

If this were advertised as a finescale show, then yes we would be justified in complaining, but it does appear to satisfy its target audience. So maybe us naysayers should all accept that the show achieved what it set out to do, and allow this thread to die of its own accord.

 

Roll on Nescot.

 

Bill

[Geoff Endacott]

I don't mind being specific about figures. Trainwest costs about £15,000 to stage. The largest cost is actually accommodation for layout operators at just under £5,000. That is probably not typical because we do insist on bringing in the best layouts from all over the country. Likewise, the second highest cost is travelling expenses at £4,000. The cost of the hall comes a distant third at less than £2,000.

 

Geoff Endacott

[fiesta]

...and I'm sure that shortfall will be made up by those punters who (like me) have never been before but are planning to next year. The negative post-show comments that always appear after any show don't to a damn thing to put me off because we're all different and have our own set of standards and expectations. What doesn't rock your boat will probably delight somebody else. I take consolation from the fact that amongst all the negativity, RMWeb is still a reasonably happy place to spend some time and hoover up advice etc. If it wasn't, I'd have given up playing with trains ages ago. Each to their own, and that's exactly the way it should be.

 

Each to their own - well said  - you will never get 100% people happy at any model railway show but they are good value for money if you spend a good few hours there - there are usually good bits and bad bits at any show but sometimes people only concentrate on the negatives and not the positives.  Oh and some people just basically enjoy moaning!  Typical British - at least the weather forecast gets a bit of a rest when there's a big show on!

[hayfield]

Yes, I can tell you what else I would do to entertain myself for a whole day for £11.  I often go for a country ramble.  No cost for travel, as I live in the country, and I take a packed lunch.  Well, you did ask.

 

Terry

 

 

Terry

 

What you could have done is got there early and had a nice free ramble along the disused track bed of the old GNR branch which is now a nature walk. 

 

I understand that Warley is dearer and the cost of parking is very expensive. The good thing about Alley Pally is its very large so space for all, plenty of places to buy coffee and free parking. Given the number of layouts and demonstrations at the show £11 is good value, St Albans was £8, Watford £6 or £7 West Herts is about £5, Railex £8 so not overly expensive.

 

I always think the first show you attend seems better than really it was and perhaps its to high expectations rather than the show not as good. There were some really nice layouts there this year, but not a show stopper. It seemed that numbers were down, but it may just have been that the venue is so large everyone can move round easily.

 

I liked the idea of perhaps having a small trader/specialist supplier area . Also good to have most of the demonstrations close to each other, again thought could be given to all demonstrations together. 

 

The west hall seemed more laid back with lots of seating. The main hall's large seating area seemed isolated as it was separated from the show by the tall backs of the stands which it was behind.

 

Still only 2 months to Railex

[roythebus]

This isn't a dig and it was quite some years ago but I've never really understood why the MRC, who effectively invented the model railway exhibition between the wars,  was the one large club that wasn't able to continue with its own exhibition. 

 

Having made the annual pilgrimage to Westminster for many years I remember the gaping hole that appeared in the hobby when the traditional Easter show disappeared. Was it simply that the perception of the exhibition as The National Show for the whole hobby made it into a monster that no club, even as large as the MRC, could have the human resources to manage without the tail wagging the dog or did the roots of the problem lie elsewhere?

There's several reasons the MRC stopped running its own shows. It became clear, about the late 1980's that London became "empty" at Easter, probably due to social changes. Despite the sudden upsurge in railway interest with the advent of Thomas on TV and a move to Wembley, it was not viable. The uncertainty of the availability of the Horticultural Halls during Easter week was also a problem, as the Horticultural Society's events had to take priority. Flower-growing is a fixed date, Easter isn't.

 

The first move to Wembley in about 1986 was a financial disaster for the exhibition company, so we went back to Westminster. That improved things a bit, and o it went on. The last Wembley show I was involved in was when I supplied the fleet of Routemasters to provide the service from Wembley Park to the show, maybe 1996. I've been out of it since then so can't comment on the involvement between the MRC and Warners.

 

It would have to be a very brave (and rich) railway club that could run a show the size of AllyPally without some form of backing from a big company like Warners.

[Phil Parker]

I don't mind being specific about figures. Trainwest costs about £15,000 to stage. The largest cost is actually accommodation for layout operators at just under £5,000. That is probably not typical because we do insist on bringing in the best layouts from all over the country. Likewise, the second highest cost is travelling expenses at £4,000. The cost of the hall comes a distant third at less than £2,000.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

£2000 is a very reasonably priced hall. In the world of exhibition centres, that often gets you the place for a single morning. You also have to pay for enough time for setting up, so the final bill after a weekend would pay for a modest new car. On top of this you'll pay for power and sockets, tables, first aid cover, rubbish disposal and many other extras you aren't allowed to do without.

 

At the NEC, I suspect it wouldn't even cover long enough for the initial rush to the Bachmann stand...

[Pete 75C]

Exactly the same divisions exist in the heritage railway sector - get it right for mum, dad and 2.4 you'll usually upset the cognescenti.

 

Yes, I well remember a gent turning up on Weybourne Station in the midst of last year's NNR "Thomas" event. He'd travelled some distance hoping to see the NNR's B12 and found himself engulfed by children and tank engines with faces. The staff were politely explaining that he should have checked first... he looked like he was about to explode.

[Talltim]

I want spectacle, something a bit special. It might be a layout with a viaduct four feet high, or  HS2 in Lego,

- Richard.

http://warrenelsmore.com/st-pancras-station/

[Talltim]

I remember going to model railway shows and never even considering the admission price, it was almost inconsequential. However I have recently become more aware of prices. Model Rail Scotland came in at £10 this year and as I attended it on 2 days it cost me £20, then you add on the carparking at SECC and actually you are up at +£30 certainly for 2 days.

That's what I was thinking of when people were complaining about the cost. You could easily pay £10 for a day's parking in many locations. Which is better value, 6 square metres of tarmac or 20 plus layouts worth of hard modelling work?

[Pacific231G]

 

Exactly the same divisions exist in the heritage railway sector - get it right for mum, dad and 2.4 you'll usually upset the cognescenti.

 

 

Yes, I well remember a gent turning up on Weybourne Station in the midst of last year's NNR "Thomas" event. He'd travelled some distance hoping to see the NNR's B12 and found himself engulfed by children and tank engines with faces. The staff were politely explaining that he should have checked first... he looked like he was about to explode.

I have heard that the cognescenti tend to take photos without actually buying tickets and it's the mum,dad and 2.4 (or often grandparents with kids) who actually keep the railway going. 

 

The NNR event sounds like a good case study in customer relations. He should have checked of course but if you were managing the railway how would you turn him from someone who'll never darken your doors again to a good future customer? 

I think I'd be inclined to point out that the Thomas Day had been advertised but understanding his disappointment after coming a long way offering him a heavily discounted ticket for a return visit at a future date - with an events schedule and a membership form of course.  

[Mallard60022]

 

And there could be the dichotomy - what's good for families usually doesn't sit well with the enthusiast, too bland, not enough fidelity, toy trains maybe.

 

Exactly the same divisions exist in the heritage railway sector - get it right for mum, dad and 2.4 you'll usually upset the cognescenti.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely; I worked at 'your railway' a few times (minion - litter duties on gala days, however hugely enjoyable) and for some time at the Bluebell, where most family type arrivees at Kingscote on Summer Saturdays needed:

1. the loos;

2. the refreshments; 

3. a friendly face of the railway to give them information.

I think, because we are maybe 'wrapped up' in our hobby and interests, that we often forget that some folk just like to come and see model trains or to have a nice day out at the 'steam railway'.

P

[Pacific231G]

Terry

 

What you could have done is got there early and had a nice free ramble along the disused track bed of the old GNR branch which is now a nature walk. 

 

I understand that Warley is dearer and the cost of parking is very expensive. The good thing about Alley Pally is its very large so space for all, plenty of places to buy coffee and free parking. Given the number of layouts and demonstrations at the show £11 is good value, St Albans was £8, Watford £6 or £7 West Herts is about £5, Railex £8 so not overly expensive.

 

By way of comparison I had a look at a few other shows.

The Motorcycle News Scottish Mototcycle Show was £16 on the day and £12 advance. That does include a stunt show though.

The National Cat Show at the NEC was £11 in 2011.

The London Model Engineering Exhibiton run by Meridienne Exhibtions at Ally Pally in January was £10 on the day and £9 in advance. I wasn't there but I believe it only occupied the main hall.

[Pete 75C]

I have heard that the cognescenti tend to take photos without actually buying tickets and it's the mum,dad and 2.4 (or often grandparents with kids) who actually keep the railway going. 

 

The NNR event sounds like a good case study in customer relations. He should have checked of course but if you were managing the railway how would you turn him from someone who'll never darken your doors again to a good future customer? 

I think I'd be inclined to point out that the Thomas Day had been advertised but understanding his disappointment after coming a long way offering him a heavily discounted ticket for a return visit at a future date - with an events schedule and a membership form of course.  

 

I didn't give the full story as it wasn't relevant to the thread, but...

My neighbour was acting SM at Weybourne that weekend. To placate the gentleman and foster future good relations, arrangements were eventually made for him to accompany a volunteer and tour the shed where the B12 was lurking, not in steam. I'd gone home by then and my neighbour told me the story later. I trust he had no cause for complaint after that! Apologies for going off-topic. Pete.

[Talltim]

The Motorcycle News Scottish Mototcycle Show was £16 on the day and £12 advance. That does include a stunt show tough.

 Idea for next year?

[thirty2a]

I have been following this thread with interest, i couldnt put my finger on why Ally Pally seemed not as good As previuos years, and I still cant!

enrty price for me, fine.

getting there for me, fine.

layouts, excelent and nice mix.

Venue, fine.

trade, not to bad good mix I think but only made a couple of purchases would have made a large purchase, expecting bit of a discount that usually happens at exhibition but couldnt find what I wanted in fact was more expensive.

I will go next year as I used to go to Easter London shows at Victoria and Westminster and London shows are lacking somewhat in my opinion.

[edcayton]

Please keep it at the Ally Pally. A friend went to the Boat Show at Excel and said it's worse than the NEC!

 

For me the good thing about the Warner's shows is the space between the stands, so there is room to move. Less good is the somewhat haphazard layout which makes it hard to plan a logical route, and the programmes. I don't see the cost as an issue, and discounts are available for subscribers, advance booking and internet booking.

 

There surely must be a flagship show for London, and for me this venue is what makes it so. As I said I didn't make it this year, but from what has been said I think It was the lack of a show-stopping layout that has left people disappointed.

 

Ed

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The admission cost is possibly a small percentage you will spend attending a show, add in fuel costs and buying a coffee and or sandwich and the total cost can be double that of getting in the show and that's before any purchaces you might make on the trade stands.Th problem of aiming a show at the family market is that they are unlikely to buy off the traders

[edcayton]

The admission cost is possibly a small percentage you will spend attending a show, add in fuel costs and buying a coffee and or sandwich and the total cost can be double that of getting in the show and that's before any purchaces you might make on the trade stands.Th problem of aiming a show at the family market is that they are unlikely to buy of the traders

 

Unlikely to buy from specialist traders, likely to buy second hand tat, or from box shifters depending on budget.

 

Ed