The London Festival of Railway Modelling 2014 - March 22/23

[Coombe Barton]

Unlikely to buy from specialist traders, likely to buy second hand tat, or from box shifters depending on budget.

 

Ed

Or maybe unaware you can buy stuff at exhibitions.

[Andy Y]

Th problem of aiming a show at the family market is that they are unlikely to buy of the traders

 

The traders I've spoken to since the weekend seem to have had a respectable weekend. I think, like the broad spectrum of exhibitors, there was a sufficiently broad spectrum of visitors. I certainly recognised many finescalers as well as seeing families on Sunday so as a general show it seem to strike a balance.

[-missy-]

 I certainly recognised many finescalers as well...

 

Well I certinaly gave you a 'poke' (quite literally!)

 

M

[Kenton]

 

The traders I've spoken to since the weekend seem to have had a respectable weekend. I think, like the broad spectrum of exhibitors, there was a sufficiently broad spectrum of visitors. I certainly recognised many fine scalers as well as seeing families on Sunday so as a general show it seem to strike a balance.

The fact that they were there does not validate a conclusion that they were happy with the show. As seen by comments in this topic several who went were somewhat disappointed (and even some who didn't could not exactly be enticed back). Families (drawn into) buying from box shifters is bound to make that type of trader happy but not having Hornby/Hejan displaying what is new and "in-vogue" may well even disappoint the "keen" member of the family.

 

I am not a "fine scaler" but even I am disappointed these days by many shows. Even NESCT quoted as an example of such a show in this topic is far off the mark AFAIC - We so-grouped "finescalers" are left with only a very few shows that can pull in those key traders (Railex, Scaleforum, ExpoEM, Reading Trade show/Kettering, ExpoNG) I return to my definition earlier - any show that cannot supply wheels, kits, paint and detailing from at least one supplier simply is not catering for the "fine scale" modeller. It is not just the quality of layouts it is the quality of trade that makes a good show.

 

Classification of the punter into family and so-called "fine scale" doesn't really help. It is once again too simplistic and divisive. Some of us attend shows with (grand)children who are indifferent some early/young modellers drag their indifferent parents along. all or any of them could be "fine scale"

 

I didn't go to last year's either but perhaps for those who have been hit by the 'je ne sais quoi' of this year found it didn't quite match the high marks of last year's show? The organisers perhaps could reflect on the differences and seek to remedy them. (Big show-piece layout, Hornby, Hejan, mix of trade stands...)

[Andy Y]

  The fact that they were there does not validate a conclusion that they were happy with the show.

I didn't conclude they were satisfied because they were there but because of what they've said (to me) after the event.

 

Classification of the punter into family and so-called "fine scale" doesn't really help. It is once again too simplistic and divisive.

It was only there to illustrate the broad spectrum (as I'd said) rather than to compartmentalise and start on any debate which involves Venn diagrams with pushchairs and C&L track in it.

[jwealleans]

That does include a stunt show though

Please, no.  There was a BMX one in the NRM last weekend.  I have no idea what link there was to railways other than having wheels.  I was in the Search Engine and had to sit through the whole thing twice. 

 

Why does a man who already has a microphone need to shout?

 

It may have been a great idea and brought in loads of people - but not in the Great Hall.  I shudder to think what sort of thread we'd be reading if it had been on at AP.

[PhilJ W]

The cost of a ticket is for me not the consideration. It is the cost and convenience of getting there. If I had gone to Ally Pally it would have cost me over £15  for a travel-card, I could have gone by car but I just did not fancy driving the North Circular.

[Kenton]

 

I didn't conclude they were satisfied because they were there but because of what they've said (to me) after the event.

 

I would suggest that is a biased sample (potentially even more so than the posts on here). I suspect more are prepared to face you with the comment of satisfaction than prepared to post it here. Also, while I have not seen anything really negative here (in fact most has been of the "I can't quite understand why gut feeling") there must be something for Warner's and the show team to take away as positive and welcome feedback.

[Glorious NSE]

You could keep it railway related - I reckon you could loop-the-loop with an old Triang "polly" for example?

[Phil Parker]

  The fact that they were there does not validate a conclusion that they were happy with the show. As seen by comments in this topic several who went were somewhat disappointed (and even some who didn't could not exactly be enticed back). Families (drawn into) buying from box shifters is bound to make that type of trader happy but not having Hornby/Hejan displaying what is new and "in-vogue" may well even disappoint the "keen" member of the family.

 

I am not a "fine scaler" but even I am disappointed these days by many shows. Even NESCT quoted as an example of such a show in this topic is far off the mark AFAIC - We so-grouped "finescalers" are left with only a very few shows that can pull in those key traders (Railex, Scaleforum, ExpoEM, Reading Trade show/Kettering, ExpoNG) I return to my definition earlier - any show that cannot supply wheels, kits, paint and detailing from at least one supplier simply is not catering for the "fine scale" modeller. It is not just the quality of layouts it is the quality of trade that makes a good show.

 

Classification of the punter into family and so-called "fine scale" doesn't really help. It is once again too simplistic and divisive. Some of us attend shows with (grand)children who are indifferent some early/young modellers drag their indifferent parents along. all or any of them could be "fine scale"

 

I didn't go to last year's either but perhaps for those who have been hit by the 'je ne sais quoi' of this year found it didn't quite match the high marks of last year's show? The organisers perhaps could reflect on the differences and seek to remedy them. (Big show-piece layout, Hornby, Hejan, mix of trade stands...)

 

A couple of points:

 

To be controversial, does it matter if those who class themselves as "finescalers" don't attend THIS event? Since only half the people at my talks had a layout of any description, it would seem that the event appealed more to the beginner end of the market. I'd suggest that this is a much larger crowd. For an expensive venue in London, that's going to make the economics a lot more healthy.

 

Judging from conversations on the stand, there are lots of people who will move from non-modeller to modeller. This is good for the future of the hobby. Those aren't “finescalers", but they might be one day.

Anyone who wants to buy wheels and gears before kitbuilding session is much more likely to attend a very specific even such as the ones on your list. They might come for the day out to a “normal” show but know full well that the range of specialist parts is going to be very limited, as it always has been at any general show.

 

Personally, I'd love it if every show had High Level models and Judith Edge, to name but two, among the traders, but I wouldn't spend any more money with them over the course of a year so financially it wouldn't make sense for them to be there. Mind you, H&A Models, Wizard Models and Precision Paints might cover quite a bit of your “wheels, kits, paint and detailing” list.

 

Secondly, Hornby were due to attend but dropped out for their own reasons. There's nothing much the organisers of any show can do to prevent this short of kidnapping staff. In the same way, they can't do much about the lack of new shiny boxes for people to buy, another major gripe.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I know that several traders who attended Ally Pally last year but dropped out this year did say they took much more money both at Expo EM and Railex than Ally Pally, I don't know the attendance of Ally Pally but I have heard it is around the 12000 mark so with the smaller shows getting around 10-20% of the big shows it does prove that the more specialist show are better for the finescale modeller than the big shows for their takings.

 

I do chat with quite a few traders when I visit shows and most are very open on what shows they like dislike etc

The same goes for friends who visit shows that I don't get to, they will tell me what they think of a show, and can be very blunt on what they think and if they will go the following year or give it a miss.

 

With Railex I try and put together a show I would like to visit if I was a paying visitor, it is not aimed at families but modellers, although if families do come that is great they hopefully will be inspired too, I do think we need to show the best in railway modelling rather than train sets.

 

David

[great central]

£2000 is a very reasonably priced hall. In the world of exhibition centres, that often gets you the place for a single morning. You also have to pay for enough time for setting up, so the final bill after a weekend would pay for a modest new car. On top of this you'll pay for power and sockets, tables, first aid cover, rubbish disposal and many other extras you aren't allowed to do without.

 

At the NEC, I suspect it wouldn't even cover long enough for the initial rush to the Bachmann stand...

 

When looking for an alternative venue after Nottingham City Council closed the Harvey Hadden sports Centre (our usual venue) for three years at least, I enquired about the East Midlands Conference Centre. It was already booked over 'our weekend' but I asked for a guide price anyway. Friday afternoon until Sunday evening was 'at a guess' £12,000!!!  

[Coombe Barton]

... I do think we need to show the best in railway modelling rather than train sets.

 

David

But unless someone shows the train sets and their development how are we ever going to get new young blood into the hobby? If we only promote fine scale it'll die. There has to be a balance.

 

What I am seeing here is a difference in expectations. People posting here are not usually the train set buyers - they've all gone way beyond that stage. Some are more timescale than others. Some are more craft oriented than others. Some want to plonk and play, some want to modify and play and some want to build. But we all started with the train set, so let's not denigrate those. And progressing from the train set is what some exhibitions are about. Others are about if scale stuff. Each has their very valuable place. But you cannot expect every exhibition to answer the demands of a very wide audience.

 

I have visited Railex once. Other times I was occupied in family matters (I do want to live) when I visited I found it was 'my' type of exhibition with finescale layouts and the trade that supported them. I visit the scale society shows of which I am a member. They give the same experience. I visited Warley once. I do not like the NEC. I have to be selective because of time and cost constraints. And what rocks my boat. But my purchases, apart from looking at them, of kits and bits, can be equally well served by mail order and the web. However I can't see and feel the stuff. If you need to that's where exhibitions come in.l

 

The Warner shows are different. Club shows are different. Church hall and school shows are different. They each serve their own markets, because there are many markets out there.

 

Just sometimes wish that all of them didn't have inconsiderate mega rucksack wearers.

[Colin]

I know that several traders who attended Ally Pally last year but dropped out this year did say they took much more money both at Expo EM and Railex than Ally Pally, I don't know the attendance of Ally Pally but I have heard it is around the 12000 mark so with the smaller shows getting around 10-20% of the big shows it does prove that the more specialist show are better for the finescale modeller than the big shows for their takings.

 

I do chat with quite a few traders when I visit shows and most are very open on what shows they like dislike etc

The same goes for friends who visit shows that I don't get to, they will tell me what they think of a show, and can be very blunt on what they think and if they will go the following year or give it a miss.

 

With Railex I try and put together a show I would like to visit if I was a paying visitor, it is not aimed at families but modellers, although if families do come that is great they hopefully will be inspired too, I do think we need to show the best in railway modelling rather than train sets.

 

David

David, on the last point, you most certainly succeed.

My view is that families will probably enjoy a show principally aimed at modellers if the layouts are good and the operators are approachable and prepared to answer very basic questions from novices or even non-enthusiasts wondering what the fuss is all about.

[edcayton]

 

 

To be controversial, does it matter if those who class themselves as "finescalers" don't attend THIS event? Since only half the people at my talks had a layout of any description, it would seem that the event appealed more to the beginner end of the market. I'd suggest that this is a much larger crowd. For an expensive venue in London, that's going to make the economics a lot more healthy.

 

 

 

To be fair, your talks were aimed at beginners, so you can't really relate that figure to people attending the event as a whole.

 

I understand that you can't force Hornby or small traders to attend, although we don't know the economics involved. The mix of layouts, talks, demo's etc must surely be aimed at a mixed audience though?

 

Ed

[Brian D]

Was I the only attendee disappointed by the fact that, out of the 40 layouts scattered around both halls, not a one was of the LNER/BR(E or NE) persuasion in any scale/gauge?  This was what was missing for me and I could certainly put my finger on it.

PS  This statement is offered as "feedback".

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I don't think we need to dumb down layouts to appeal to families, I remember as a child I was more inspired by layouts such Chiltern Green rather than the trainset type layouts, it didn't make me want to model 2mm scale or the Midland main line but it did show me what could be done, and hopefully pushed me to do modelling, I remember painting a old Hornby pannier tank with Humbrol GWR green and painting the front of the tanks black rather than green, not exactly finescale but it gave me the first steps on proper modelling. 

[Phil Parker]

 I do think we need to show the best in railway modelling rather than train sets.

 

I'm not sure that the owners of the layout at Ally Pally would appreciate them all being described as "train sets". In fact I have a feeling that Herculanium Dock has been at both this show and Railex.

 

From a lot of the comments, I wonder if one problem was that there wasn't a big trains thrashing around train set type layout.

[hayfield]

I agree that the show should cater for all those interested in model railways. As said families (the children) will be the future of our hobby and my friend (in his 70's) also wanted to buy from box shifters. I on the other hand brought from both small specialist traders and the s/h club stand.

 

Long may it stay a show for all, lets face it some of the new RTR stock is better than I could make my self

[George Woodcock]

Hello

 

        I would like to say thank-you to Warners for inviting me to Ally Pally last weekend. John and I had great time. We met a lot of people that we knew and talked to many people we had never met before. I can never claim to be a 'fine-scale' modeller and my chances of being invited to Railex are probably zero but I, along with most modellers I know, enjoy what we do. I did see a comment on here from some-one saying that too many of the layouts looked similar. I think there was only one Georgemas Jct there and it doesn't look like any-where else. Nowadays I turn down more shows than I do and still attend a dozen or so a year. My bookings are now well into 2017; all I have to do is live long enough to fulfil the bookings. Would i go back to Ally Pally? Certainly. I can't comment on the transport issues involved with this show as I was not affected by them, getting in and out as an exhibitor was as good as any-where I've been over the years. I did hear one visitor complain to one of the girls working for Warners that the shuttle bus was 3 minutes late but hey that's life. Once again thanks to every-one who made it a good weekend for me at least.

 

               

                                                                                                                                                          Cheers

 

                                                                                                                                                                       George

[Nimbus]

You could keep it railway related - I reckon you could loop-the-loop with an old Triang "polly" for example?

 

I reckon the Battle Space Turbo Car would be an attention-grabber. If 'tuning' were permitted, it could evolve into a competitive event!

 

The Nim.

[roundhouse]

Don't mention Triang Battlespace otherwise the layout next year will be full of the stuff!!

 

Edit

Bl@@dy autocorrect!!!

[Phil Parker]

Don't mention Triangle Battlespace otherwise the layout next year will be full of the stuff!!

 

Yes please!

 

I've got 9 giraffee cars too - can I bring these? :-)

[newbryford]

But unless someone shows the train sets and their development how are we ever going to get new young blood into the hobby? If we only promote fine scale it'll die. There has to be a balance.

 

What I am seeing here is a difference in expectations. People posting here are not usually the train set buyers - they've all gone way beyond that stage. Some are more timescale than others. Some are more craft oriented than others. Some want to plonk and play, some want to modify and play and some want to build. But we all started with the train set, so let's not denigrate those. And progressing from the train set is what some exhibitions are about. Others are about if scale stuff. Each has their very valuable place. But you cannot expect every exhibition to answer the demands of a very wide audience.

 

I have visited Railex once. Other times I was occupied in family matters (I do want to live) when I visited I found it was 'my' type of exhibition with finescale layouts and the trade that supported them. I visit the scale society shows of which I am a member. They give the same experience. I visited Warley once. I do not like the NEC. I have to be selective because of time and cost constraints. And what rocks my boat. But my purchases, apart from looking at them, of kits and bits, can be equally well served by mail order and the web. However I can't see and feel the stuff. If you need to that's where exhibitions come in.l

 

The Warner shows are different. Club shows are different. Church hall and school shows are different. They each serve their own markets, because there are many markets out there.

 

 

 

I agree that the show should cater for all those interested in model railways. As said families (the children) will be the future of our hobby and my friend (in his 70's) also wanted to buy from box shifters. I on the other hand brought from both small specialist traders and the s/h club stand.

 

Long may it stay a show for all, lets face it some of the new RTR stock is better than I could make my self

 

My bold.

And therein lies the root of this discussion.

You can't please all of the people, all of the time.

 

Keep on with shows like these, otherwise, they'll all become the same, with the same layouts/traders etc.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[David Bigcheeseplant]

My train set remark was general not aimed at Ally Pally itself, I remember going to the MRC for the first time around 1982 at Westminster Hall, and have been to most since then, so I do think it is important to have a London show and show the best the hobby can offer, those early show I was drawn to the K Kits stand with those at the time lovely kit built locos which I really wanted at the time. 

 

I can also remember the MRC 2mm layout which were always impressive what ever you modelled. even though it is important to get children involved most people come into the hobby later in life and it is those people who we need to get on board. Children do train sets adults do railway modelling, now what was the title of the Ally Pally show "The festiville of Railway Modelling!