?40 for a Gresley Full Brake

[Silverstreak]

Have I missed something seismic as far as Hornby is concerned. Today I received an email flyer from a large Model railway retailer in which they were advertising the arrival of the Gresley BR Maroon full brake coach at a discounted price of £40. For a single coach  !!!!

 

Now, I have not been paying much attention to 4mm prices for a while but that seems pretty excessive for one coach. Does it come with opening doors and a set of crated pigeon's

[TheSignalEngineer]

I paid £25 for mine from the previous delivery. At current prices lack of product from Hornby won't be worrying me too much.

[sub39h]

Welcome to Hornby's new pricing strategy. There are other bonkers decisions in their new catalogue such as £160 for the Class 60. Don't get me wrong it's a cracking model but I bought 2 previous catalogue versions of exactly the same model brand new for £67 and £80 and Bachmann 37s and 47s are about 2/3 the price and at least 90% as good. HSTs at over £200 when they couldn't seem to shift the previous versions for much more than £100 is another example. 

 

I understand that companies are there to make a profit, and I understand that Hornby have had a torrid time recently, but this all smacks a bit of "passing the costs of business errors onto the customer" and tbh I think it'll backfire badly for them. 

[gwrrob]

I can understand your concerns on Hornby's pricing but to add another example,I priced up doing a rake of four Comet kits for a GWR M set.The kits alone would cost £180 and that's before you buld and paint them.I would happily pay £40 for a quality rtr GWR coach.Not warmed over 70s tat but brand new 21st century quality.Vote with your wallet.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Have I missed something seismic as far as Hornby is concerned. Today I received an email flyer from a large Model railway retailer in which they were advertising the arrival of the Gresley BR Maroon full brake coach at a discounted price of £40. For a single coach  !!!!

 

Now, I have not been paying much attention to 4mm prices for a while but that seems pretty excessive for one coach. Does it come with opening doors and a set of crated pigeon's

Shop around and get a Hawksworth instead for about half the price

[coachmann]

Leaving aside Hornby's supposed pricing policies, I looked at the email on my PC and considered £40-odd okay for the Gresley Full Brake. I have one incidentally and gave my metal one away. Of course there are at least three other alternatives.......

 

1) People can always buy a kit (domed roofs are always fun!), plus solder and paint cans of primer and maroon. Might cost more than £40 but....

 

2) People can hope that Hornby will repent. 

 

3) Go without.

[PhilH]

Hornby's target market is narrowing....first target those with l-a-r-g-e disposable income....

[Fenway Park]

Excellent post Coachmann.

[sub39h]

Leaving aside Hornby's supposed pricing policies, I looked at the email on my PC and considered £40-odd okay for the Gresley Full Brake. I have one incidentally and gave my metal one away. Of course there are at least three other alternatives.......

 

1) People can always buy a kit (domed roofs are always fun!), plus solder and paint cans of primer and maroon. Might cost more than £40 but....

 

2) People can hope that Hornby will repent. 

 

3) Go without.

 

4) buy 2nd hand (no new money for Hornby)

 

5) look for back catalogue examples at cheaper prices (no new money for Hornby)

 

6) buy a cheaper alternative from the same manufacturer (less money for Hornby)

 

7) buy a cheaper alternative from another manufacturer (no money for Hornby)

 

 

I sincerely hate being ripped off. I am the kind of person that would go without as a matter of principle. This is a hobby at the end of the day and not a necessity., I'm most likely to go for options 4, 5 or 7 if I really wanted the item and I doubt I'm alone. I could appreciate if the items were new to the market or somehow improved. (For example the new batch of Bachmann Class 150s are around the £100 when I bought mine for about £60, but they have genuinely improved it so I don't much mind.)  But Hornby have not done this. They've whacked up the price on items they could barely sell before and I do think it'll spell disaster. 

[Frappington Jct]

 

7) buy a cheaper alternative from another manufacturer (no money for Hornby)

 

Bachmann's Thompson full brake would probably be the best like for like swap. It's not quite as detailed, but the plainer profile of the prototype make it less visible at normal viewing distance

[APOLLO]

I have two of the old Ian Kirk Gresley full brakes. Bought them quite a while ago, nice models, easy to build also. I think these are still available, can anyone confirm ?

 

As to Hornby, well I will admit to paying £44 for a Gresley blue/grey buffet car (Hornby) from Hattons, yes it was way overpriced, but I only wanted one (just one !!). I also bought a bit later the same coach (well, two of em) in BR Maroon from the same shop for £17 each. No way could I (or pay someone else to) do a paint job to match the factory blue/grey one for the extra £27.

 

Regarding coaches, there are some good bargains currently at Hattons, Bachmann Mk 2's for £12 etc. Hard to make a rake as they are brake first/seconds and full first's, worth a look though !!

 

Hornby's pricing policy is well discussed in other threads. They won't make much profit from me in future, that's for sure.

 

Brit15

[coachmann]

 

 

 

I sincerely hate being ripped off. I am the kind of person that would go without as a matter of principle. This is a hobby at the end of the day and not a necessity.,

It is not a hobby to manufacturing companies, workers and retailers.

[davidw]

It is not a hobby to manufacturing companies, workers and retailers.

Correct,  but disposable income reduces - whilst prices seem to accelerate out of control.  If consumers are priced out of the hobby, that too affects the manufacturer's.

 

I'm glad I've plenty of Hornby Gresley's,

 

Pricing is part of the whole package of issues affecting Hornby as discussed else where.

[durham light infantry]

It is not a hobby to manufacturing companies, workers and retailers.

I agree Larry. But it is a hobby that manufacturers are looking to make a profit out of. Hornby are alienating there core market every day by treating them with contempt and making poor business decisions. Then expecting the same core market to pay extra, year on year for for the previous years ill advised marketing and pricing strategies.

 

This is only going to end one way, no Hornby

 

P.S. Now going to work on my AIRFIX (Isn't that a Hornby Group Company?) Sea Vixen, which is worth every penny of the £40 spent on it.

[Bodmin Bob]

I received what was probably the very same email flyer from the very same retailer today and the £40 Gresley full brake advert immediately jumped out for me also - had to read it twice in case it was a mis-print

 

I haven't got the Hornby Gresley BG but assume that as a BG it won't even have an interior so how can that price be justified for an existing model (with it's publicised side profile flaws)?

 

You have to fear that with a poor supply chain and with over inflated prices then it is only a matter of time before we only have one major player in British outline RTR products in OO

[sub39h]

It is not a hobby to manufacturing companies, workers and retailers.

 

Will I feel bad for the ordinary Hornby workers if the company went bust (again)? Of course I will. Will I blame myself if I choose not to buy their models anymore? No - I will blame the decision makers at Hornby. 

 

I feel it would be a shame if Hornby were no more - they are a historically important British company and one from my childhood. But some of their prices increase this year really are not acceptable to me as a customer so I will take my business elsewhere where necessary. That's my right as the paying customer.  

[darren01]

The list of bad decisions grows for Hornby.................    

[sub39h]

Stop whining, 40-odd quid for a carriage is quite normal for Swiss NG (Bemo!) and those are smaller and shorter then the one you're complaining about Just GBP 160 for a 2-car powered set? Lucky you, the recent Bemo RhB Allegra (which is a 3 car set, but overall the same length) retails at 500 euro (your pound does about 1.21 euro today, do the math yourself) You're spoilt with cheap, acceptable models in what is basically a niche market with a niche scale. What Hornby is doing is amalgamating the prices from the mainland/Continent onto the UK market. When Bachmann sees the competition getting away with it, they'll follow suit. As will Heljan, in time. And Hornby will be getting away with it, scores of modellers will buy their Hornby stock, even at the new, higher prices. Anyone believing that some sort of (online) protest or boycott will bring Hornby back to lower prices is plainly fooling only himself.....

 

In regards to European models, I was always under the impression that they were usually higher detailed than UK equivalents, even though they are smaller. (I doubt as well that the relative decrease in size makes much if any difference to production costs.) I was also under the impression that European models are more likely to be made in their country of origin and this will drive up the cost compared with Chinese production. This goes at least some of the way to explaining the price difference.

 

The reason I don't think the market will tolerate such massive price increases are that firstly the UK has some of the highest costs of living in Europe, meaning less disposable income to spend on hobbies. Secondly the impression I get is that the hobby is generally the preserve of middle aged and older men and the UK has some of the worst pensions provisions for older people again meaning less disposable income to spend "playing trains". 

 

The evidence thus far suggests to me that Bachmann is not following suit. I do not for one second predict that their non-sound diesels will cost over £150. Heljan models have always been a little more expensive but then they are usually more obscure models with a smaller fanbase and thus a higher price is needed to justify their production. Whether Hornby will succeed in selling their models at their (imho) ridiculous prices remains to be seen. You have your view, and mine is different. I do for Hornby's sake hope you're right. For the consumers' sake I hope you're wrong. 

 

My decision to spend money or not spend money is mine alone. I'm not paying £160 for a model that two weeks ago I bought brand new for half that. (Also please note that the price of £160 refers to a single powered Class 60, not a 2 car set.) I'm not suggesting that anyone follow my example as some sort of protest or boycott. My decision to buy is based on the value I associate with that particular good and at £160 it isn't worth it compared with either competitotrs' products or other endeavours entirely. I have a feeling that a lot of people will feel the same way I do. Previous prices (and subsequent discounts) on these locomotives would suggest that I am right and if Hornby isn't selling their products they will lower their prices - but as I already mentioned we'll have to wait and see. 

[Dave47549]

.

[PhilH]

Stop whining, 40-odd quid for a carriage is quite normal for Swiss NG (Bemo!) and those are smaller and shorter then the one you're complaining about Just GBP 160 for a 2-car powered set? Lucky you, the recent Bemo RhB Allegra (which is a 3 car set, but overall the same length) retails at 500 euro (your pound does about 1.21 euro today, do the math yourself) You're spoilt with cheap, acceptable models in what is basically a niche market with a niche scale. What Hornby is doing is amalgamating the prices from the mainland/Continent onto the UK market. When Bachmann sees the competition getting away with it, they'll follow suit. As will Heljan, in time. And Hornby will be getting away with it, scores of modellers will buy their Hornby stock, even at the new, higher prices. Anyone believing that some sort of (online) protest or boycott will bring Hornby back to lower prices is plainly fooling only himself.....

Depends if you think Hornby caters mainly for the enthusiast or the mass toy market.

 

Enthusiasts never wholly finance any large scale operation be it toy trains, model railway exhibitions or heritage railways.

[rembrow]

Have I missed something seismic as far as Hornby is concerned. Today I received an email flyer from a large Model railway retailer in which they were advertising the arrival of the Gresley BR Maroon full brake coach at a discounted price of £40. For a single coach  !!!!

 

Now, I have not been paying much attention to 4mm prices for a while but that seems pretty excessive for one coach. Does it come with opening doors and a set of crated pigeon's

This is not new, the 'B' suffix Gresley maroon brake first appeared in the January 2012 catalogue at an rrp of £47.49, as opposed to the first two versions at £36.49. All the Gresley maroon releases scheduled for 2012 were at this price, its only due to Hornby's manufacturing difficulties that these models have been delayed for 2 years, but the price has remained the same, less with discounts. So just think what an inflation indexed price might have been. For some reason Hornby pushed the price of the Gresley maroon corridors way above other comparable coach products in 2012, for example the new tooling BR/Southern unconverted open standard corridor, was priced at £39.99 for what was a comparable item and new tooling that needed a return. There have always been these anomalies appearing each year, in Hornby's pricing. I remember the set of 3 ECC hoppers, based on the old tooling, doubling in price to about £42 compared to the previous Tarmac set. I think the worst example is the Stanier Restaurant car, tooling from the mid 1980s, bought by Hornby from Dapol. That doubles in price about 3 years ago from £24 to £48, making it comparable to the much newer and finer detailed other Stanier corridor stock. A trick to catch out those without the knowledge, I'm certainly suspicious. I don't believe that Hornby high pricing is actually a new phenomenon, as it was a practice used selectively for many years on different products. 

The often repeated argument that the UK model rail pricing is much cheaper than other areas is certainly correct for some places, however the UK competitive market is different to other areas and businesses, while seeking to obtain their best income and profit, have to tailor and judge their pricing to the competitive market they are in. The UK market is very competitive, with Bachmann still setting low prices and if Hornby wishes to stay a mainstream supplier they have to compete as well as supply products that the modeller desires. They are no longer in the dominant position that allows them to set the market rate, as they are now playing catch up, and I believe that is a position they are uncomfortable with, as they have relied on the brand history and loyalty for too long

[Dunsignalling]

Depends if you think Hornby caters mainly for the enthusiast or the mass toy market.

 

Enthusiasts never wholly finance any large scale operation be it toy trains, model railway exhibitions or heritage railways.

I think it's fairly self-evident that a fairly mundane-looking coach costing the thick end of £40 from the cheapest suppliers is not aimed at the toy market! 

 

John

[coachmann]

Plastic RTR is the least expensive way of people adding well detailed models (well above what they could build and paint) to their collection. It's a safe bet that people are buying them and that they will soon be out of stock, after all an etched kit for this vehicle is around £43.50, which requires a certain amount of skill to build and paint.

[Dunsignalling]

Stop whining, 40-odd quid for a carriage is quite normal for Swiss NG (Bemo!) and those are smaller and shorter then the one you're complaining about Just GBP 160 for a 2-car powered set? Lucky you, the recent Bemo RhB Allegra (which is a 3 car set, but overall the same length) retails at 500 euro (your pound does about 1.21 euro today, do the math yourself) You're spoilt with cheap, acceptable models in what is basically a niche market with a niche scale. What Hornby is doing is amalgamating the prices from the mainland/Continent onto the UK market. When Bachmann sees the competition getting away with it, they'll follow suit. As will Heljan, in time. And Hornby will be getting away with it, scores of modellers will buy their Hornby stock, even at the new, higher prices. Anyone believing that some sort of (online) protest or boycott will bring Hornby back to lower prices is plainly fooling only himself.....

Hornby may 'get away with' their pricing strategy, but it is likely to be at the cost of volume/market share. Of course, that may well be factored into their plans.

 

It is a fortunate man who has the money and the room to collect one of everything and all nearly all of us have limits to both! As price rises continue, many Hornby customers who have, up to now, pursued a rather random purchasing pattern, are likely to forego some models that they like in favour of others that they want.

 

I have always been fairly focussed anyway but I do occasionally hanker after a model that falls outside my main areas of interest. In the past year, I've let several Hornby locos go by, but bought three from Bachmann that fell into that category. Those decisions were purely based on my judgement of value-for-money; I could happily have done without any of them and would have done so if (for instance) the L&Y tank had been the price of a 42xx.

 

If Hornby ever resume producing more than one model at a time that do cater for my main interests, I may well stick at two rather than the three I might have bought previously. That won't be anytime soon as they are making very few locos that interest me this year and I already have the money put by for those that do! 

 

I think that higher prices are likely to make Hornby more 'specialist' rather than less, so it will be interesting to see if that is where they really want to be once they get out of survival mode and start looking further ahead.

 

John

[The Bigbee Line]

Plastic RTR is the least expensive way of people adding well detailed models (well above what they could build and paint) to their collection. It's a safe bet that people are buying them and that they will soon be out of stock, after all an etched kit for this vehicle is around £43.50, which requires a certain amount of skill to build and paint.

I would echo the words of Coachmann.  When I look at prices I ask the question; Do I want to pay the asking price?  I might think it's more than I want to pay.  On the other hand I may make the purchase, it's up to me. 

I have a collection of Hornby Maunsell coaches, mostly through ebay as I was a 'late starter', all between £20 and £25, 12 coaches in all, so around the £300 mark.  Will I run them all at the same time, most unlikely.  One of the reasons for buying them is the "must get them while they are available" syndrome.  If they had been £40-£50 I may have been a bit more selective but would still have paid the price.

Value time your spent in making a model at £50 an hour.  (Don't laugh, you have overheads; heat, light, materials, consumables etc)  Then ask the question.  Can I make an XXX coach in under an hour?  I think not.  Not trying to be smug or clever here.  If a supplier is underselling things, the manufacturer won't be around for long.  When working in the real rail industry I used to tell some customers "...it doesn't say registered charity across my forehead......'   There is always a lower price limit, go below that and your doing yourself, as a supplier and in the long term your customers, no favours.

 

I'll finish with a tale;  A man won a horse in a raffle and took it to a stable to find out how much it would cost to keep.  Astounded by the high cost he asked if they could recommend somewhere cheaper, he went there and although cheaper was still expensive.  The process was repeated until at the 20th stable he was quoted £2 per week.  He mulled it over in his mind and replied "OK, but I'll want the manure".     The reply "For £2 a week there is no manure". 

 

Think about it.