?40 for a Gresley Full Brake

[coachmann]

Folk who are a-feared their pocket was injured or they tripped up badly when they bought a Gresley full brake should call in the injurylawyers off TV....Or if they can't afford it, take out a dosh-in-yer-pockets loan at 4000% apr, or watch Corrie and see if the fukcwit at the Cafe bought one or not....

[Adams442T]

Gaugemaster are selling them for only £48.95. It seems a lot of money for a maroon version. Prices of coaches seem to have risen disproportionately over the years. In July 1961 Hornby-Dublo made an excellent BR full brake for 14s 11p which is the equivalent of £14.49 in today's money calculated on the measuring worth web site. As long as people continue to buy Gresley full brakes Hornby will continue to charge the same price.

 

Robin, I appreciate that you are a long term Hornby enthusiast, and you have a plethora of information concerning past model issues and prices, but...........IMHO the comparisons between 1961 issues and the present day are somewhat irrelevant.  The world has changed immeasurably in the last 50 years, and not just in Hornby terms.   The RTR offered then bears no comparison with today's offerings in terms of being a scale model and the fact that a 1960s Hornby Dublo A4 might have a wonderful mechanism that is still trundling around on its steamroller wheels after 50 years is a tribute to its longevity, but little else.

 

UK RTR buyers have got used to a cheap source of wonderful models, but that source (Chinese manufacture) is no longer available at the prices that people have got used to.  Hornby and others are struggling to come to terms with, and deal with, the altering situation in China, and realistically there is little prospect of any alternative to getting whatever they can from their suppliers short term. 

 

Hornby's other great problem is that they are in the middle of what appears to be a massive restructuring in order, I suspect, to keep the Banks happy enough to keep extending their credit lines for future investment.  Whether the Company are moving in the right direction overall to survive, even ignoring the Hornby Trains supply and trade terms debacle, is a moot point.  I hope they do, but I suspect like Sherlock Holmes after Reichenbach Falls they will not be the same.

[durham light infantry]

 

Hornby's other great problem is that they are in the middle of what appears to be a massive restructuring in order, I suspect, to keep the Banks happy enough to keep extending their credit lines for future investment.  Whether the Company are moving in the right direction overall to survive, even ignoring the Hornby Trains supply and trade terms debacle, is a moot point.  I hope they do, but I suspect like Sherlock Holmes after Reichenbach Falls they will not be the same.

Isn't this a bit Chicken and Egg?

 

It is no good striving to keep a supply of credit and investment, when at the end of the re-structuring your customer base has disappeared!

 

Mike

[Adams442T]

Isn't this a bit Chicken and Egg?

 

It is no good striving to keep a supply of credit and investment, when at the end of the re-structuring your customer base has disappeared!

 

Mike

 

That assumes Mike that the UK Model Railway part of Hornby Hobbies is seen as a significant part of their future efforts.  It may well be that a relatively difficult, low margin, section will be run down to the Railroad, 'Design Clever', standard, and they will rely on their less knowledgeable outlets (dept. stores, etc.) and their online direct sales.  We already know that their Continental Brands are at much higher prices with less fidelity in the models too.  Sadly the cosy image of Frank Hornby's world is no more, this is a PLC trying to make profits and survive in a difficult situation.  I fear UK modellers are probably not as important in that as we'd like to believe.

[BlackRat]

And let's remember Hornby are only a part of their portfolio and have a relatively small niche market, compared to say the global appeal of slot car racing..........

 

And let's face it, in the big world of continental HO, OO is a small niche whether we like to think we are big hitters or not.

[stewartingram]

A common theme running through all these Hornby threads, is the longetivity of the company. Let us just remember that:-

 

Hornby was tinplate 0 gauge.

Hornby Dublo was a later brand from the same company (Meccano, of Liverpool). Initially 3 rail, 2 rail was later introduced.

 

A totally separate company was Triang, going through changes of ownership over the years.

In the early 60s, Hornby Dublo (Meccano) was failing financially, and was bought out by the then Triang company. Little was incorporated into the Triang range. The latter was renamed Triang-Hornby. Other parts of the Meccano group went to different owners.

So by now, the "proper" Hornby brand ceased to exist. Triang-Hornby continued developing models in basically the same tradition as before. The former Hornby-Dublo range was re-introduced as the Wrenn brand (a limited range) but with a smack of Triang marketing by having many fictional liveries.

Eventually the Wrenn range went independent; eventually ending up in the Dapol range. Some of this range (mostly wagons) are still produced by Dapol today.

 

During the 70s/80s, other companies such as Mainline and Airfix Railways (later Great Model Railways), made in the far East, came on the market. Here is not the place to discuss these, but a convuluted history of these items saw various bits going through the hands of Dapol, Replica, Hornby, and Bachmann (in no particular order). Some of these items are still in production with their last owners.

 

Around the turn of the century, Hornby moved some of its older (Triang style) models to far East production. This led onto the MN being developed as the 1st true China built model; the start of the modern day Hornby we are all familiar with. By this time of course, the Triang-Hornby name had been dropped in favour of Hornby, for quite a while. So Hornby, in reality the developed Triang range (whoever the owner was by now), was strictly speaking an imposter using the old Hornby name.

 

Throughout this period of time (basically post-war) the company (as well as others that I have mentioned) has changed ownership a number of times.( I have deliberately simplified this history).

 

So, what really is Hornby?

And in the future, what really is Hornby?

 

Stewart

[sub39h]

And let's remember Hornby are only a part of their portfolio and have a relatively small niche market, compared to say the global appeal of slot car racing..........

 

And let's face it, in the big world of continental HO, OO is a small niche whether we like to think we are big hitters or not.

 

Genuine question: is it really fair to think in these terms though? Surely in the same way that we only model the UK (and usually only a specific part of the UK), I would assume that continental modellers would only stick to their patch. Therefore would it not be better to consider 00 gauge only with, say, French H0 or German or Swiss each with individual markets and models rather than the whole continent together? 

 

If the above is true, then are we really that much smaller than any of those individual markets? I have no reason to believe we have a smaller market for model railways than demographically similar countries such as France or Germany? 

[BlackRat]

Yes we are, which is why we still have no rtr track as such, everything being more or less made to HO standards.

 

Ok, a simplification......but Hornby or it's group of companies are now very much multi national with such brands as Rivarossi, Joueff, Electrotren and Arnold.

 

So how many Gresleys will they sell n comparison to a wagon used in several countries across Europe?

 

Again, perhaps,a generalisation, but UK outline in OO must be a small niche to them, considering they are a multinational with at least three main stream HO companies under their belt.

 

If we look at that from the railway point of view.......then the UK makes up only a quarter of their company, but the UK is tiny in comparison to the European market in HO.....

 

So how many OO modellers compared to HO, and out of the OO modellers how many will want a Gres/Col/Bull full brake in a particular livery.........it ain't going to be in the thousands is it........maybe a few hundred.......so of the course the unit price HAS to go up.

 

And as an aside, how much for a,hi fi HO gauge 'specialist' coach from Fleischman, Rivarossi or Roco.......?

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

If the above is true, then are we really that much smaller than any of those individual markets? I have no reason to believe we have a smaller market for model railways than demographically similar countries such as France or Germany? 

My feeling is that there has been a reduction in the number of people with a railway interest in Germany.

However only a few years ago almost every family had a train set, even if it only ever came out at Christmas.

In percentage or absolute terms the interest in Germany must be several times that which applies in the UK.

Even in the old DDR most families had an interest in model trains.

The amount of railway related material on sale at station bookshops should be an indicator of the difference between the two countries.

Bernard

[sub39h]

Yes we are, which is why we still have no rtr track as such, everything being more or less made to HO standards.

 

Ok, a simplification......but Hornby or it's group of companies are now very much multi national with such brands as Rivarossi, Joueff, Electrotren and Arnold.

 

So how many Gresleys will they sell n comparison to a wagon used in several countries across Europe?

 

Again, perhaps,a generalisation, but UK outline in OO must be a small niche to them, considering they are a multinational with at least three main stream HO companies under their belt.

 

If we look at that from the railway point of view.......then the UK makes up only a quarter of their company, but the UK is tiny in comparison to the European market in HO.....

 

So how many OO modellers compared to HO, and out of the OO modellers how many will want a Gres/Col/Bull full brake in a particular livery.........it ain't going to be in the thousands is it........maybe a few hundred.......so of the course the unit price HAS to go up.

 

And as an aside, how much for a,hi fi HO gauge 'specialist' coach from Fleischman, Rivarossi or Roco.......?

 

I feel you're picking unrepresentative examples. When it comes to track I absolutely agree with you that there is less of a financial interest to produce true "00 scale" track which is why we are stuck with H0. I'm not familiar with continental European railways, but are there a lot of cross over between rolling stock? If not then my point above still applies that they are separate markets and when considered against one of those markets individually there probably isn't much in it between "us" and "them". 

 

Anyway we are going off on a bit of a tangent so I await your reply but I'll leave it there. 

[Bon Accord]

Reading some of the replies above, you'd be forgiven for thinking there's a 'red box' fifth column amongst us.

[BlackRat]

You may well be right, but lets remember Hornby is now an international company, and it's board think internationally.

 

And again, how many of an individual model will sell?

 

I think we have been very luck over the last decade or so and things may well be changing, or at least they seem to be.

 

I still think £40 is cheap, but it's all relative.

 

As a runner I think nothing of paying £100 for a pair of running shoes which last 6 months tops, and I still think that's good value for what I get.

 

£40 or whatever for a top model which will last virtually forever has to be good value.

 

Affordability is another matter but there will always be a market and those willing to pay for it for whether its a top end coach or a Rolex.

[Andy Hayter]

Genuine question: is it really fair to think in these terms though? Surely in the same way that we only model the UK (and usually only a specific part of the UK), I would assume that continental modellers would only stick to their patch. Therefore would it not be better to consider 00 gauge only with, say, French H0 or German or Swiss each with individual markets and models rather than the whole continent together? 

 

If the above is true, then are we really that much smaller than any of those individual markets? I have no reason to believe we have a smaller market for model railways than demographically similar countries such as France or Germany?

I am afraid that the hints given by Black Rat re wagons is just the tip of an very visible part of the iceberg.

 

German ICEs run into France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria (at least)

TGVs in one form or another run in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland etc. as well as France.

Siemens Freight/Multi-purpose locos can now be found in most European countries in one livery or another. There are even some British (ex-GM USA) locos courtesy of EWS (now ECR) but guess what - UK models are not the correct scale! They are therefore not part of the European Market.

Coaching stock has been international for many, many decades - indeed is probably less so today than in the past, but Russian coaches still run regularly into France as an example.

Add to that those that model earlier periods will find a mix of locomotives and stock from 1914 onwards courtesy of two wars, locomotives and stock taken as war booty and as reparations and national boundaries start to become very blurred in the railway stock world.

 

Of course a modeller of a specific region and time span will have his/her choices restricted, just as in the UK, but the breadth of the market is much broader than your post suggests.

 

 

The days of the layout based on the Swiss French Italian Austrian Danish German border have probably never been as close to reality as they are today.

[Sam Moss]

It seems to me that Hornby can't produce what the consumer wants which then means Hornby looses money, however if Hornby bump up the price for said model they can get more return for less expense. It screams "struggling company with lack of cash flow" to me..................

[JSpencer]

For the quality, I accept that this will be the norm I am afraid.

 

Hornby have understood that people in General will not pay this price leading to these new mk1 and mk2 hybrid railroad/main range coaches that full short of my standards.

Bachmann are in between and a right balance but we should expect their prices to shift upwards as well.

 

While Hornby is short on production capacity to make these now, on the other hand, I have nearly all the coaching stock I could need.

 

Just the odd prototype here and there and some decent bird cages....

[Dunsignalling]

And let's face it, in the big world of continental HO, OO is a small niche whether we like to think we are big hitters or not.

Which is, presumably why Hornby were able to buy up several 'big hitters' who fell upon hard times before they did themselves!

 

John

[Gwiwer]

I have gone back through my records and can confirm that on 02/11/2012 I paid £25 for R4531A BR Gresley full brake in maroon.  The same retailer currently offers the R4531C for £39.  To be fair I must also add that my purchase price was net of VAT which, were it included, should have made the price a fraction under £30; the item was probably advertised at £30 at the time.

 

The item is to my mind the same.  There might be detail differences such as the running number.

 

Aside from all arguments over other brands / countries / quantities produced what else has changed in the past 18 months or so to justify a price hike in the region of 30%?

 

Costs rise and prices rise.  But on the whole not that steeply in so short a time.

I'm rather glad from that point of view that I need no more.  Though I acknowledge the kit- and scratch-builders who's time isn't factored into the cost of producing stunning and sometimes unique models at much greater unit cost.

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

Aside from all arguments over other brands / countries / quantities produced what else has changed in the past 18 months or so to justify a price hike in the region of 30%?

 

Costs rise and prices rise.  But on the whole not that steeply in so short a time.

 

 

In normal circumstances I agree.

However Hornby have changed suppliers so it is back to square one.

Any comparison with the historical cost base is null and void. 

They are also in the process of changing how they sell their products.

They also have a new team who might well have different ideas.

There is of course the thought that they might well have made a mistake in the original costing/pricing of this item.

Historically they do seem to have fallen into this trap on several occasions.

When you look at other items in the range it does now seem to be at a more realistic price compared to other modern high quality coaches.

What price on a new run of suburban LNER stock?

Hornby must be kicking themselves for flogging the last lot at a price massively below what the market would have accepted.

My guess is that £40 for the BG will seem some thing of a bargain.

Bernard

[Legend]

In normal circumstances I agree.

However Hornby have changed suppliers so it is back to square one.

Any comparison with the historical cost base is null and void. 

They are also in the process of changing how they sell their products.

They also have a new team who might well have different ideas.

There is of course the thought that they might well have made a mistake in the original costing/pricing of this item.

Historically they do seem to have fallen into this trap on several occasions.

When you look at other items in the range it does now seem to be at a more realistic price compared to other modern high quality coaches.

What price on a new run of suburban LNER stock?

Hornby must be kicking themselves for flogging the last lot at a price massively below what the market would have accepted.

My guess is that £40 for the BG will seem some thing of a bargain.

Bernard

 I think thats what Hornby think, but whether its true or not is another question.  The point was captured someway up this thread. If you need a Gresley Full Brake you will have no choice but to buy one. However  I don't really need one, but if it were a good price I'd consider it. At £40 you can forget it. I was in a similar postion with Hawksworths. If you look at Modelzone/WH Smith they are selling them in Glasgow @£38.No chance! I've been picking them up at exhibitions for £20-£22 (maybe from Cheltenham Model Centre?). So there are possibly two markets : Those that really need model, which I think is the smaller of the markets, and those that buy on impulse because its nice to have.  Hornby think the former with loads of people trotting down to the shops (or Hornbys full price mail order) to buy their Gresley as it would cost twice as much to make a kit. I think its the latter and Hornby will catch a cold.

[Dunsignalling]

I have a feeling that Hornby are trying to squeeze the current "middle market sector" out of their sales plans.

The more discerning buyer will migrate towards a less-is-more attitude and buy the expensive stuff whilst the fleet purchaser" will drift towards the more Railroad end of the market.

For some indefinable reason I suspect it is the two ends of the market where Hornby see the most profit / better cash flows .....

I thought the whole idea was that there would be two ranges but it was evident almost from the start that, pricewise, they were being pitched too close together.

 

Hornby then made the mistake of putting worked-over Airfix/Mainline locos into the 'Quality' range at rather higher prices than their new chassis and better paint jobs could justify. They were undoubtedly a cut above most 'Railroad' but blurred the line between the ranges just when it needed to be clearly defined.

 

Hornby never intended there to be a 'middle way' but the 4F and 2P created an expectation of one as did 'Duke of Gloucester'; a Railroad model plus a 'halfway-house' job that clearly didn't come close to Hornby's best efforts of the preceding decade.

 

For a two-range system to work, there needs to be 'clear blue water' between them and I reckon the price gap needs to be well over 50% (probably more like 70%) with a clear cut quality/detail differential to match.

 

The idea of dual-range locos as exemplified by the DoG is probably buried in the same hole as the phrase 'design clever'. The P2 is, almost certainly, too far along to be changed but I doubt Hornby will revisit the concept as applied to those models. If anything similar is to be attempted in future, the Railroad one should be a much-simplified version of a 'proper' model IMHO, with the Railroad one coming to market the year after the premium model.

 

John

[brushman47544]

Have I missed something seismic as far as Hornby is concerned. Today I received an email flyer from a large Model railway retailer in which they were advertising the arrival of the Gresley BR Maroon full brake coach at a discounted price of £40. For a single coach  !!!!

 

Now, I have not been paying much attention to 4mm prices for a while but that seems pretty excessive for one coach. Does it come with opening doors and a set of crated pigeon's

 

Only £40. That's cheap. Hornby's Gresley buffet in blue/grey is more expensive than that.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Only £40. That's cheap. Hornby's Gresley buffet in blue/grey is more expensive than that.

That's because you have to pay more Window Tax.

[plarailfan]

Where I live in West Yorkshire, many people are struggling along on minimum wage, or near to it and many workers have not even had a pay rise for many years. (although, the min wage is catching up to them, so they will have a rise eventually)

Modelzone (in Leeds has) closed, also, Wakefield model railway centre, which had been trading for donkeys years ! The toy fairs at Halifax and Morley faded away some years ago and more recently, at Pudsey, I noticed buyers were refusing to pay for recently released models, that were priced at just below internet "box shifters"

Quite a few well paid managers where I work, have had their jobs restructured and they are now working for around a third less salary than they were earning just a couple of months ago, so generally, I would say that many modellers are looking long and hard at what they can spend on their hobby.

Perhaps it is time for Hornby and maybe other model firms, to bring in a "prestige" range of expensive / high quality models, produced in limited numbers, as the old, toylike, Hornby Gresley coaches have been around years / are widely available / sell very cheaply secondhand / can be upgraded by anyone with moderate skill and time. Quite honestly, I don't know, but just a thought anyway ! 

[byron]

Where I live in West Yorkshire, many people are struggling along on minimum wage, or near to it and many workers have not even had a pay rise for many years. (although, the min wage is catching up to them, so they will have a rise eventually)

Modelzone (in Leeds has) closed, also, Wakefield model railway centre, which had been trading for donkeys years ! The toy fairs at Halifax and Morley faded away some years ago and more recently, at Pudsey, I noticed buyers were refusing to pay for recently released models, that were priced at just below internet "box shifters"

Quite a few well paid managers where I work, have had their jobs restructured and they are now working for around a third less salary than they were earning just a couple of months ago, so generally, I would say that many modellers are looking long and hard at what they can spend on their hobby.

Perhaps it is time for Hornby and maybe other model firms, to bring in a "prestige" range of expensive / high quality models, produced in limited numbers, as the old, toylike, Hornby Gresley coaches have been around years / are widely available / sell very cheaply secondhand / can be upgraded by anyone with moderate skill and time. Quite honestly, I don't know, but just a thought anyway ! 

Interesting, Roco/Fleischmann have seen the writing on the wall, and introduced a basic range at rather good prices.

Mike

[APOLLO]

Where I live in West Yorkshire, many people are struggling along on minimum wage, or near to it and many workers have not even had a pay rise for many years

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13JK5kChbRw

 

Sorry, couldn't resist !!

 

Seriously though, it's similar over here in Lancashire and no doubt many other parts of the UK (incl SE).. Rising stratospheric living cost inflation coupled with small / no pay rises (or even falls) over the last few years has no doubt had a serious affect at non-necessity purchases of many. Certainly I buy a lot less these days, and very little this year to date.

 

Hornby have the "Railroad" budget range, though not very budget at list price. A £56 9F (discounted) is now over £80, and prices well over £100 for the Railroad Crosti (when / if released).

 

Brit15