?40 for a Gresley Full Brake

[Gwiwer]

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread"

 

I'm not going to be the one to call Hornby's management fools but suffice to say the "angels" at Barwell have so far managed to keep turning out excellent products at far more competitive prices.  Those arriving via Margate are too often a let down, are not at all consistent in design and quality and as the item in question - which is by no means the only such example - shows they are certainly not aimed at the "train set" market.

 

For what it's worth I have now cancelled orders for three 2-Bil, two 2-Hal and one 5-Bel units as I consider the current pricing regime places them beyond what I feel is fair and reasonable.  If, upon delivery, they are acclaimed as the most stunning examples of Hornby production for years then I am willing to reconsider.  But I'm not holding my breath.

[davidw]

Plastic RTR is the least expensive way of people adding well detailed models (well above what they could build and paint) to their collection. It's a safe bet that people are buying them and that they will soon be out of stock, after all an etched kit for this vehicle is around £43.50, which requires a certain amount of skill to build and paint.

But is that a 'fair' comparison? Comet prices over the last 10years have gone up 10 -15 %.  The reaction here is that the H.ornby Gresley's (and others)  which were around the £25 mark are now almost double that.

 

Questions of value for money do need to be asked but are these rises sustainable?   I couldn't and wouldn't be able to purchase the number that I have if I wanted the same number today - it's simple economics.

[rembrow]

Have I missed something seismic as far as Hornby is concerned. Today I received an email flyer from a large Model railway retailer in which they were advertising the arrival of the Gresley BR Maroon full brake coach at a discounted price of £40. For a single coach  !!!!

 

Now, I have not been paying much attention to 4mm prices for a while but that seems pretty excessive for one coach. Does it come with opening doors and a set of crated pigeon's

Another option Silverstreak, is to look around for the 'A'suffix version. You won't get this at the high volume boxshifters, as they will have sold out long ago, however I just went to my local model shop, to pick up the latest Dapol catalogue and they had the 'A' version, discounted to £31.05 - it's not there now!!!. I wasn't worried about having the same coach number as the BR coach numbers are relatively small and cannot be read at normal viewing distance

[Ravenser]

At the moment Hornby's main problem is that they can't produce enough product to meet demand. The Gresley coaches are some of their most sophisticated productions and the full brake is probably the best of the gangwayed Gresleys. The difference in standard between it and good Continental HO coaches is probably pretty slight (A comparison with current retail prices for say Roco SNCF Corails - bread and butter stock from fairly longstanding tooling - would be instructive)

 

Hornby have recently restructured their pricing to make it very difficult for anyone to discount deeply unless they wish to sell cheaper than they bought. This means that the big box shifters' prices will now be much closer to RRP - and closer to the local shop's price

 

Anyone used to buying heavily discounted RTR at 2/3rds of the list price will therefore get a shock 

 

Hornby will not lose market share because of their prices - they have lost market share because they haven't got the product to sell as a result of supply issues (which are also affecting Bachmann and everyone else around the globe dependant on China)

 

Discounting stuff heavily when there is a shortage of it and you can't meet demand is irrational

 

As far as pricing of the 2-HALs is concerned , I predict that when they come out there will be a lot of outraged postings saying that you can't get one anywhere for love nor money and it's a scandal , pull your finger out Hornby....  Hornby can be pretty confident of selling out if it's a half way decent model. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The happy days of really cheap yet pretty good OO RTR are over. We just have to get used to it. I'll not be spending any more cash on this hobby, but will not complain at only being able to buy one decent model, for the money that only a few years ago purchased two equivalent items.

 

What I will baulk at is any attempt to drop quality to deliver at a low price. At least maintain the standard, ideally improve further, let the price fall where it has to. That will send me back to kit based DIY; which was practically all I purchased during the death spiral competition between Hornby and Lima to see which could foist the crappiest product on the UK customer.

[steveb860]

From the other side of the counter I see a lot of potential returnee's to the hobby coming in to browse, but baulking at the price of Hornby products. Suggest Bachmann to them, and they develop a blank look because they have not heard of them. The high prices are currently turning away a lot of new customers to the hobby.

[Jol Wilkinson]

But is that a 'fair' comparison? Comet prices over the last 10years have gone up 10 -15 %.  The reaction here is that the H.ornby Gresley's (and others)  which were around the £25 mark are now almost double that.

 

Questions of value for money do need to be asked but are these rises sustainable?   I couldn't and wouldn't be able to purchase the number that I have if I wanted the same number today - it's simple economics.

David,

 

that is something of a red herring. I would suggest that Comet's price increases are not a real reflection of the increases in manufacturing costs. An increase of 2.5% - 3% p.a. would simply reflect general RPI increases. In reality the cost of material for etching, utility prices, etc. have probably gone up a lot more than that. 

 

Most UK 4mm kit manufacturer prices are probably lower than they probably really should be, owing to the impact of the RTR market. A look at the comparable cost of 7mm kits, where there is much less RTR pricing impact, will support that view.

 

Jol 

[Mike70]

Yesterday in another thread "Where are the Hornby models?", I mentioned the upcoming BR ex-LNER Gresley teaks;

 

In the thread '2014 Hornby Announcements' some BR (ex-lner) Gresley teaks were mentioned, R4598 to R4602, which would be available through Hornby concessions.

 

It talked about an RRP of £62 each.

 

Has anyone seen these items mentioned anywhere else?

 

I can't even find them on the Hornby website.

 

Has anyone seen these mentioned anywhere else?

[Ravenser]

Yesterday in another thread "Where are the Hornby models?", I mentioned the upcoming BR ex-LNER Gresley teaks;

 

In the thread '2014 Hornby Announcements' some BR (ex-lner) Gresley teaks were mentioned, R4598 to R4602, which would be available through Hornby concessions.

 

It talked about an RRP of £62 each.

 

Has anyone seen these items mentioned anywhere else?

 

I can't even find them on the Hornby website.

 

Has anyone seen these mentioned anywhere else?

They might not come out of the factory until the second half of 2015 . That's the practical reality of the supply situation.  And you will only find them in Hornby concessions - meaning WHS and Hamleys. (I can't see Hawkins Bazaar carrying such high end specialist items).

 

The tampo printing of teak requires a lot of passes and it's probably the most difficult and demandig (in production terms) livery ever to feature on RTR. Consequently there has always been a premium of £10-£15 for teak liveried Gresleys

[davidw]

David,

 

that is something of a red herring. I would suggest that Comet's price increases are not a real reflection of the increases in manufacturing costs. An increase of 2.5% - 3% p.a. would simply reflect general RPI increases. In reality the cost of material for etching, utility prices, etc. have probably gone up a lot more than that. 

 

Most UK 4mm kit manufacturer prices are probably lower than they probably really should be, owing to the impact of the RTR market. A look at the comparable cost of 7mm kits, where there is much less RTR pricing impact, will support that view.

 

Jol 

Jol,

 

I referenced kit prices as Coachmann referred to them in his post. I agree the context is different - but my question remains - are these prices sustainable?

[CUTLER2579]

Rails of Sheffield are asking £47 for the Gresley Full Brake. I assume they expect them to wizz off the shelf. 

[stewartingram]

It doesn't matter what business you are in, or are talking about. The simple fact is that a manufacturer has production costs before he gets an item to sell. Those costs are usually thought of by the uninitiated as "a little bit of plastic" and nothing else, but are actually much more than that. Factory rent, heating lighting, labour costs, packaging, advertising, bank loans, even the toilet paper in the staff loo. To cap it all, they want to make a profit! So they set the trade price (which then has the retail shop adding his markup on to that) at a sustainable level for the manufacturer to survive.

Now this has a number of ways to go:

1. Trade price too low - the manufacturer can't survive.

2. Trade price too high - shops won't buy because they can't afford to, or know that if they do, they won't sell on to Joe Public

3. Trade price ok - a difficult balancing act -  the manufacturer will survive.

 

Hornby are struggling to find 3. They have had limited income in recent times because of poor casshflow, so need to maximise the latter. They have loans to pay to the banks. So they price as high as they think they can. As I said, a difficult balance.

 

Stewart

[Xerces Fobe2]

IMO No matter how hard Hornby push the full brakes a crash is now almost in inevitable!

 

XF

[rembrow]

It doesn't matter what business you are in, or are talking about. The simple fact is that a manufacturer has production costs before he gets an item to sell. Those costs are usually thought of by the uninitiated as "a little bit of plastic" and nothing else, but are actually much more than that. Factory rent, heating lighting, labour costs, packaging, advertising, bank loans, even the toilet paper in the staff loo. To cap it all, they want to make a profit! So they set the trade price (which then has the retail shop adding his markup on to that) at a sustainable level for the manufacturer to survive.

Now this has a number of ways to go:

1. Trade price too low - the manufacturer can't survive.

2. Trade price too high - shops won't buy because they can't afford to, or know that if they do, they won't sell on to Joe Public

3. Trade price om - a difficult balancing act -  the manufacturer will survive.

 

Hornby are struggling to find 3. They have had limited income in recent times because of poor casshflow, so nee to maximise the latter. They have loans to pay to the banks. So they price as high as they think they can. As I said, a difficult balance.

 

Stewart

The problem is that Hornby seem to have come out at Method 2 - Trade price to high, not my view but the view of the model shops in my area. Take the latest versions of the Gresley Full Brake, the subject of this thread. I live in the ex LNER area, so they should be staple fodder and normally would be. The 2 model shops in my nearest towns have not ordered them for stock as they have judged that they won't sell at the price and they will ultimately end up discounting them below cost. One shop was stung with the Gresley blue/grey buffet, which was a very high price when it came out 3 years ago. It should have sold in this area as it was used on the Harwich to Manchester boat trains, but my local shop ended up having to sell most below cost. The view of both shops is that repeat run items will likely not sell, at the current price, with limited discounting possible and only new tooling will have a market, so reruns will probably only be ordered in if a customer orders. Similarly both are moving away from Hornby for staple items such as track, controllers, track accessories etc and if a customer asks for Hornby, are suggesting alternatives like Peco, Gaugemaster, Bachmann etc. One of my two local shops told me that Hornby are not going to deliver train sets in one stock issue this year, but spread over the year. No good for his business. Bachmann are introducing an extensive range of train sets so he's looking their as an alternative. One local shop told their Hornby rep that Hornby were acting as market leaders by the way they were cutting margins, yet due to stock shortages they were fifth or sixth in terms of his suppliers by value. Another shop has decided to buy as much Hornby PLC stock from independent wholesalers (Airfix, Corgi, Humbrol, etc) as he gets it for the same price but Hornby have to give a margin to the wholesaler. He admits its petty, but the only way of getting back at them for their behaviour to their customers.

[Andy Hayter]

davidw, on 29 Mar 2014 - 16:42, said:

Jol,

 

I referenced kit prices as Coachmann referred to them in his post. I agree the context is different - but my question remains - are these prices sustainable?

All the while that Hornby can only negotiate limited production runs and bring perhaps 1500-2000 items to market, then yes, I am afraid these prices will be sustainable provided the quality is right. Unfortunately this will price some modellers and even collectors out of the market; but rather that than Hornby making insufficient profit to stay in business.

 

Of course if/when we return to production runs of 5000, that will be a different matter all together. But don't hold your breath on that one.

[Philip Jackson]

Hornby prices vary wildly these days so it pays to shop around. I found R4468 BR Blue gresley buffet at £60.25 on the Hornby website, £54.00 at one well known retailer and another at £44.00

[darren01]

Hi 

I have been saying this for sometime,ever since Hornby tried to sell there Guards van at nearly £19.00, then dropped the price down when they did not get the sales.

There has been few bits out i wanted ,But when i looked at the prices i was see  put me completely  off buying . don't get me wrong i am a fanatic when it comes to model railways

 I have paid for some coaches a while back at much higher prices than i paid last year for the same one's and came away without feeling joy of getting some new stock, But felt i had been taken for a ride by Hornby.

I have now got to the point i feel prices have become a little bit pricey now and do not feel that what i have just brought are not really worth it, and so i now buy very little from Hornby and a lot more from Bachmann,as i feel there prices are within the ball park, But even they have gone up again.

Hornby have put up there prices in a way that makes no sense and no real thought of use, But of profit.

Looking at the new West Country a model that has been around for years, and they bang the price up to £134.99 and look at the price of class 31, tops out at £150.00 ,I could go on, the only way Hornby are ever going to get it ,is for there sales to take a real nose dive, then they may have a rethink.

But collectors will be happy to pay silly prices as it's not about the cost ,but having it, so they will keep Hornby going a bit.

The other thing that is not helping at all is such short run's on models, that end up creating a feeding frenzy and if you do not end up pre ordering your going to miss getting one, Doing it this way makes a bigger demand for the model ,so the price can be kept high.

Look at the DoG how many of you brought the model and found out it was over priced and did not come up to exception, how did you feel ?

I know that my day's of buying what i want are over and now i think do i really want that model form Hornby and can i justify the cost, a lot of the time i walk away,and that's what will happen,

I think a lot of people will stop buying and make kits and not buy as many as they used too, The golden day's are over.

Darren

[Ian Hargrave]

Sorry,Darren ,you've just woken up to the smell of freshly-brewed coffee,Welcome to 2014 !

[PhilH]

No gravy on the chips though!

[Legend]

Yesterday in another thread "Where are the Hornby models?", I mentioned the upcoming BR ex-LNER Gresley teaks;

 

In the thread '2014 Hornby Announcements' some BR (ex-lner) Gresley teaks were mentioned, R4598 to R4602, which would be available through Hornby concessions.

 

It talked about an RRP of £62 each.

 

Has anyone seen these items mentioned anywhere else?

 

I can't even find them on the Hornby website.

 

Has anyone seen these mentioned anywhere else?

Hard to avoid the conclusion the lunatics have taken over the asylum

[Dunsignalling]

Hi 

I have been saying this for sometime,ever since Hornby tried to sell there Guards van at nearly £19.00, then dropped the price down when they did not get the sales.

There has been few bits out i wanted ,But when i looked at the prices i was see  put me completely  off buying . don't get me wrong i am a fanatic when it comes to model railways

 I have paid for some coaches a while back at much higher prices than i paid last year for the same one's and came away without feeling joy of getting some new stock, But felt i had been taken for a ride by Hornby.

I have now got to the point i feel prices have become a little bit pricey now and do not feel that what i have just brought are not really worth it, and so i now buy very little from Hornby and a lot more from Bachmann,as i feel there prices are within the ball park, But even they have gone up again.

Hornby have put up there prices in a way that makes no sense and no real thought of use, But of profit.

Looking at the new West Country a model that has been around for years, and they bang the price up to £134.99 and look at the price of class 31, tops out at £150.00 ,I could go on, the only way Hornby are ever going to get it ,is for there sales to take a real nose dive, then they may have a rethink.

But collectors will be happy to pay silly prices as it's not about the cost ,but having it, so they will keep Hornby going a bit.

The other thing that is not helping at all is such short run's on models, that end up creating a feeding frenzy and if you do not end up pre ordering your going to miss getting one, Doing it this way makes a bigger demand for the model ,so the price can be kept high.

Look at the DoG how many of you brought the model and found out it was over priced and did not come up to exception, how did you feel ?

I know that my day's of buying what i want are over and now i think do i really want that model form Hornby and can i justify the cost, a lot of the time i walk away,and that's what will happen,

I think a lot of people will stop buying and make kits and not buy as many as they used too, The golden day's are over.

Darren

Much of Hornby's income from modellers (and Bachmann's for that matter) is generated by casual purchases of models that don't form part of their core interests and items that do but which duplicate something they already own one or more of. 

 

Higher prices are likely to make most of us a bit more thoughtful about our spending habits. 

 

The collector market may be Hornby's 'bread and butter' but the sales most at risk from greater selectivity in modellers' buying habits might represent the 'jam'.

 

John

[45568]

Hattons had 'more than 10' of 4531B & C in stock last night, (my time). This morning, only 4531C, '9 in stock' . Someone's buying them!

Cheers,

Peter C.

[Mike70]

Hattons had 'more than 10' of 4531B & C in stock last night, (my time). This morning, only 4531C, '9 in stock' . Someone's buying them!Cheers,Peter C.

Wonder if they are selling as quick at Rails where they are 20% more?

[BlackRat]

It's all relative I guess, £40 for such a thing of beauty appears cheap compared to a visit for two at a cinema, or a half decent meal out.

 

Even a cheap curry for two these days with trimmings cost the best part of £40, or even more.

 

We are a strange lot, we demand hi fi, then baulk at its cost or whine about standards having to be lowered so the manufacturer can lower the cost.

 

Best thing is just don't buy it, or rather than have two or three lesser models, go for the better job!

 

It's a bit like rather than buying a load of prints, signed or no, buy just that one original painting instead.

[shunny]

I used to build the Kirk coach kits before Hornby released theirs for a cost comparison the kits are £15 then wheels at £6 white metal bogies £8 roof vents £3 underframe details £6 cast corridor ends £5 couplings £1 paint and transfers approx £2 (based on multiple coaches) total £46 and this does not include time and when finished I don't even have a flush glazed coach either. The Hornby coaches seem expensive but this is what it cost me about 10 years ago to build one but never felt like this as always bought separate but the value of Hornby to me seems pretty good when I look at it.