Lima Diesels .. Yes or No?

[Dannyboy2891]

Hi Fellow Modellers,

 

This my second thread to which I have started upon this awesome forum, I not long ago started another thread (Tmd or not to Tmd) was in slightly the wrong forum (micro and box profile layouts) but the response to which I received and all the helpful advice I had received was epic..

 

I am now at another cross roads and once again call upon you diesel fans out there for some help Please??    

The reason I am asking for help is .. now I have got my plan for Tmd layout and got the baseboards built .. my next plan was to then start collecting my little fleet of diesels (Lima) the attraction to these great models is that they are widely available at reasonable costs and you can still get the servicing parts too.

 

But just recently I have been advised Not to go down the Lima route as I would end up regretting it .. So I am now somewhat against the buffers and don't know quite what to do ..

My main aim of operating my Tmd was to have a standard analogue control system and just happily shunt and operate away, I also must add that being a family person (like most of you out there) my funds are somewhat Very limited .. So hence why Lima options was so appealing to me.   

 

So which then leads me to ask you all for any advice once more Please, No matter if it's the pro's or con's to collecting Lima diesels or just a simple yes go ahead or be it spend your money more wisely and let it be worth the wait for the more costly Bachmann or Hornby models?    

 

Many Thanks

Dan  

    

[Pete 75C]

Go for it. The motors may be basic and some may say the detail is from the dark ages, but I have a fondness for them. At the price they're available for now (from ebay, for example) I'm planning to weather and detail mine. If it all goes wrong, the loss will be easier to bear than if I mess up a £100 Bachmann! I've just got hold of a mint rail blue ED, 73001. A nice runner, maybe a little noisy but I love it to bits. I've heard all the horror stories but usually take them with a pinch of salt. Run them in well, keep them serviced and enjoy. Good luck, Pete.

[John Tomlinson]

Its become fashionable to dismiss Lima products, however to my mind they can represent good value for money, against escalating prices for other brands.

 

They have one advantage that you hint at,  they are easy to service and you can still get parts. In the past I've bought a few stuttering dogs at Toyfairs, stripped them down, deep cleaned and then carefully lubricated to give a good runner. Many of the bodyshell mouldings are considered to be superior to later, and more expensive offerings - how much you wish to do to them is up to you, but there are obviously lots of bits from A1 and Shawplan (Extreme Etchings) to take it as far as you wish.

 

Its a recommendation that a number of the locos on such iconic exhibition layouts as Canada Road, Wibdenshaw and Runswick Leamside have had Lima as a base starting point, albeit then with a good deal of work.

 

John.

[Dannyboy2891]

Hi Pete,

 

Many Thanks for your speedy reply   

 

I must admit I was all for jumping in and getting going .. That being until I got few other people saying Don't do it. I do already have 5 loco's (37,47,60,66 & 67) and so far so good when I got those models .. they too are in great condition and run like a dream.. just the luck of the draw I guess. I am not shy to serving my own stocks as that's the first thing I wanted to do before I got into the hobby .. that saving a few quid too.

 

That is a Very interesting point about preference to weathering a £30 loco, instead of regretting a mistake on more expensive Bachmann. Congrats on your 73 purchase, all loco's have their own little characteristics that's why we like them so much .. must admit one or two of those are on my shopping list ..  Have you got a Tmd or are you modelling mainline running?.

 

Many Thanks Pete

Best Wishes

Dan

[Dannyboy2891]

Hi John,

 

Cheers for the speedy reply and thanks for being another pro Lima diesel fan. I don't know why others chose to dismiss lima, but as you say they are good value for money and the spares are there when needed. I am More than happy to service/tinker with my loco's till I get them running how I like them.

 

I so far have escaped the rough runners as I do have 5 loco's already, to which wen I bought them from ebay .. they were in great condition. To be honest I am not looking for perfection when it comes to modelling, I would just like to have and operate a layout (like most of us) to which I can say I did that and I am happy with it

 

Many Thanks

Dan     

[Metr0Land]

Must admit I've been lucky with Lima locos though I note some owners have been less so.

 

My Class 20, 101, 121, have been sweet runners, Class 37 good but noisy.  Deltic and Western ok but noisy, but wheels are dirt magnets.  I had 3 Lima Class 31's but standardised on Airfix for various reasons.  All ran well but were silky smooth/ok/noisy ie one of each!

[37114]

Some of the Lima locos were well moulded, examples spring to mind include the 31 and 73. The 40 was also much better than any other manufacturers (until the recent Bachmann revamp). The earlier motors seem better than the later ones, my 2 Lima DMU's run very well having been serviced and run in properly and having extra pick ups added.

[ChrisH-UK]

Nothing wrong with a bit of Lima, ok the mechanism isn't the latest and greatest but there are certain models that offer serious value for money. I have replaced some of what I consider my key models to new types but I'm hanging on to a few 26s and some 31s and a smattering of other types. Like you and a few others have said you can get detailing without worrying about making an expensive mistake.

 

Thanks

Chris H

[Baby Deltic]

I personally prefer the Lima class 31 to the Hornby offering (not the railroad).

[Gwiwer]

To my mind you get what you pay for.  Aside from the occasional silly prices for a few items (refer to the "Ebay Madness" thread for example) Lima tend to be cheaper because they initially cost less to produce, were retailed cheaply and were produced in some quantity.  Everything about them was rather basic by today's standards but passed muster perhaps 25 years ago when the likes of Bachmann and Heljan, and the intricate work the Chinese factories produce, was virtually unknown.

 

The bodies are reasonable representations.  I know of a number of quite high-profile modellers who are very happy to use Lima bodies as the basis for upgrades, conversions, "cut-and-shut" work and even as standalone items with virtually no changes made.

 

The motors are basic and are designed for table-top train sets with locos pulling two or three carriages or a few wagons around an oval of level track.  Couple a prototypical train to them, or ask them to go up any sort of gradient, and all you'll get is wheel spin.  Lima models are now - at the best - middle-aged to elderly and any which have been run regularly are likely to suffer from poor performance because of that.  They pick up power on most wheels including the unpowered ones at the opposite end to the motor but are famous for having chunky "pizza-cutter" wheels which don't like modern fine scale track.  They usually cope with Code 100 though can ride rough over points and crossings.

 

There are things which can be done to improve them.  They can be remotored which is a quite popular and cost-effective way of keeping them going though you don't lose the demented whining as you aren't replacing the gears which cause this.  You can wire in additional power pick-ups and you can change the wheels which will also improve performance.  You can add weight - for example I used fishing sinkers when I ran Lima locos - which will improve traction and pulling power but at the cost of placing extra strain on the motor which will therefore heat up more quickly and increases the potential for it to burn out.

 

If you are skilled in servicing then a full strip-down of the motor can improve matters no end and fitting replacement carbon brushes will give you years of life extension.  Wheel back-to-back dimensions can sometimes be adjusted which also improves power pick-up and pulling power though not all types permit this.

 

In short if you choose to run Lima items you can expect them to behave much as toy trains do.  They can be difficult to control speed to a fine  degree and are hard to persuade to move at slow speeds reliably.  They can be jerky and noisy.  They can slip and refuse to pull even a quite modest train.

 

But they can be a good and relatively cheap way of entering the hobby and / or of building up some rolling stock which can be serviced / upgraded later on as your time and skills permit.

 

With that all said I have disposed of all but one of my Lima locos in favour of Bachmann, Heljan, modern (heavyweight) Hornby and recent Dapol releases and only retain the DMUs because no-one els has yet produced a class 117 (or close equivalent) unit which might be the single most sought-after item not in anyone's current catalogue.  

[Baby Deltic]

The Lima 40 can be detailed up very nicely:

 

 

As can the class 31:

 

 

Then there were the 'limited edition' 31's:

 

 

[steve22]

 I think you'll be quite happy with Lima stock, Dan.  When I worked in a model shop in the 1980's I serviced dozens of Lima locos.  Easiest make of all to service back then, be it replacement commutators, brushes, gears, etc or soldering in a Zero One chip.  Body removal was very easy too (apart from the puzzle that we had when the Class 20 first arrived).  Another easy to fix was the contact wiper in the non-driven bogie.  Pull off the pick-up clip, remove the underside keeper plate with a small flat screwdriver and see how worn the thin metal pickup 'wiper' (or whatever it's termed) has become.  Wipe it but leave in place.  Clean the mucky axles and thread in a similar piece of metal - I used thin brass - cut to size.  Clip everything back together and you have a much longer-lasting pick-up. My workmate Dennis, playing on my surname, called this modification a 'morri-mod'.  I agree with Gwiwer that the Lima locos may only be really happy on Code 100 rail. However, our experience of the diesels was, put what you like behind one and it will pull as much as you care to couple - we had a high level track circling the shop which proved just that.  As for running, they could crawl well and accelerate very smoothly to a point where the whirr of the motor actually made the Westerns sound like real ones!  One safety warning - the weight is simply a chunk (no other word for it) of steel, rough cut without the edge filed clean.  When you removed the body on a Lima loco with such a weight, careful with your fingers and file the offending burr (the sharp edge) clean off.     

[Pete 75C]

Not particularly happy about the toy train analogy... some of us don't have the disposable income to run a fleet of £100+ locos, and Lima therefore doesn't deserve to be disregarded so readily.  I'll echo what's been said so far in favour of Lima diesels. Also, I've never had a problem with haulage capacity even on gradients. Having owned many over the years, their basic motors can be a bonus with regard to keeping them running. Servicing takes minutes and will keep them sweet. With regard to Code 75, that could be a problem but one you'd need to suck and see. My 47s and EDs have no issues whatsoever with Code 75 but if you're using Code 100 you shouldn't have any problems at all.

Dan, my current plank isn't a TMD but I do have one stored in the ideas box for the future!

[Simon G]

I fully agree with many of the earlier comments.  The Lima diesel ultra slow speed performance is not as good as modern Bachmann/Hornby ones, but is still OK as long as the loco is serviced and the wheels are clean. Additional pickups do help with the slow speed and smoothness.  I have remotored some with motors out of CD drvies, and this improves the slow speed and the noise, and costs next to nothing to do. Additional weight helps - I have replaced the steel weight with the same volume of lead (weighing approx 180 grams) in some locos which also helps traction.  I just need time to detail them now!

[Dannyboy2891]

Must admit I've been lucky with Lima locos though I note some owners have been less so.

 

My Class 20, 101, 121, have been sweet runners, Class 37 good but noisy.  Deltic and Western ok but noisy, but wheels are dirt magnets.  I had 3 Lima Class 31's but standardised on Airfix for various reasons.  All ran well but were silky smooth/ok/noisy ie one of each!

 

Hi Metr0Land

 

Cheers for your post, The class 20 was a sure winner for my list or a pair oft hem that's for sure. I am not sure entirely but I bet most Tmd's up and down the country always had 20's in or stabled at them?. Indeed my 37,47,60,66 and67 are all in good condition and great runners. one thing for sure is that the few who did try to put me off the Lima models always a gripe about them being too noisy .. to me I like to think they just have a little more character. 

Many Thanks to you

Dan   

[Dannyboy2891]

Some of the Lima locos were well moulded, examples spring to mind include the 31 and 73. The 40 was also much better than any other manufacturers (until the recent Bachmann revamp). The earlier motors seem better than the later ones, my 2 Lima DMU's run very well having been serviced and run in properly and having extra pick ups added.

Hi 37114

 

Must start of by saying Very cool handle for your profile   The class 37 is one of my all time favourite loco's. Cheers for your post and for being yet Another yes to go ahead and enjoy your diesels  Interesting that you say that the dmu's run very nicely .. as a fellow club member has just offered me 2 Nse dmu's one 2 car unit and 1 three car unit .. so mite just take him up on those.  

Many Thanks to you Kind sir

 

Best wishes

Dan

[Dannyboy2891]

Nothing wrong with a bit of Lima, ok the mechanism isn't the latest and greatest but there are certain models that offer serious value for money. I have replaced some of what I consider my key models to new types but I'm hanging on to a few 26s and some 31s and a smattering of other types. Like you and a few others have said you can get detailing without worrying about making an expensive mistake.

 

Thanks

Chris H

Hi Chris

 

Thanks for your post and for indeed tipping the scale for in favour of going ahead to what I had originally planned   a class 31 is on my shopping list too.

Cheers

 

Best Wishes

Dan

[Dannyboy2891]

Hi Gwiwer,

 

Wow what a post, thank you. nice to know that is not just all green lights along the way .. Indeed food for thought by your post and all noted.

I do a lot of my own servicing myself as it does tend to keep the cost of repair down and if I am able to fix it, then more funds available for another model.

 

Although I must just say that I neither agree or disagree with the Lima's being basic especially motor wise, if its running lame then maybe its a case of coming from a very well loved home and it was time for a new home .. me quite happily. There are always tweeks here and there that could be done, like you commented upon. But in my case I would just like to collect some of my favourites and then probably a handful more just to enjoy running them at home in my hobby corner to how I think (after extensive research of Tmd's) it could be.

 

I know that your not against Lima loco's and please don't think by some of my previous comments lean to that suggestion ( I mean no offence). I do admire those willing to give a balanced point of view.

 

Many Thanks to you kind Sir  

Best wishes

Dan   

[Dannyboy2891]

 Hi Baby Deltic,

 

Many thanks for your posts and for the awesome pictures to go with them .. Great models and superb detailing I mite add

Best Wishes

Dan  

[Dannyboy2891]

 I think you'll be quite happy with Lima stock, Dan.  When I worked in a model shop in the 1980's I serviced dozens of Lima locos.  Easiest make of all to service back then, be it replacement commutators, brushes, gears, etc or soldering in a Zero One chip.  Body removal was very easy too (apart from the puzzle that we had when the Class 20 first arrived).  Another easy to fix was the contact wiper in the non-driven bogie.  Pull off the pick-up clip, remove the underside keeper plate with a small flat screwdriver and see how worn the thin metal pickup 'wiper' (or whatever it's termed) has become.  Wipe it but leave in place.  Clean the mucky axles and thread in a similar piece of metal - I used thin brass - cut to size.  Clip everything back together and you have a much longer-lasting pick-up. My workmate Dennis, playing on my surname, called this modification a 'morri-mod'.  I agree with Gwiwer that the Lima locos may only be really happy on Code 100 rail. However, our experience of the diesels was, put what you like behind one and it will pull as much as you care to couple - we had a high level track circling the shop which proved just that.  As for running, they could crawl well and accelerate very smoothly to a point where the whirr of the motor actually made the Westerns sound like real ones!  One safety warning - the weight is simply a chunk (no other word for it) of steel, rough cut without the edge filed clean.  When you removed the body on a Lima loco with such a weight, careful with your fingers and file the offending burr (the sharp edge) clean off.     

 

Hi Steve22

 

Cheers for you post and indeed for a little more insight to the working motors and axles of the loco's .. nice to meet another fellow tinkering modeller (no offence intended) but in this hobby sometimes a good ole tinkering ..just gets the result you sometimes want or need .. even if by purely accidental ( on my part).

 

Many Thanks to you

Dan

[griffgriff]

Well as with all choices there is compromise. There is absolutely nothing wrong with many Lima locos once they have had a little attention. The bodies lend themselves to detailing, as others have said, IMHO the mechanism needs some work (wheel change although this may not be necessary if using code 100 track) and the running qualities of the motor can be improved by using DCC. Which brings me to my point. If your planning a TMD then running qualities are going to be important, or you will end up tearing you hair out, so as I see it here's your choice DC with current state of the art mechanisms, with Lima upgrades, or go DCC.

 

... That's what I'd do. Whatever you do have fun.

[Dannyboy2891]

Not particularly happy about the toy train analogy... some of us don't have the disposable income to run a fleet of £100+ locos, and Lima therefore doesn't deserve to be disregarded so readily.  I'll echo what's been said so far in favour of Lima diesels. Also, I've never had a problem with haulage capacity even on gradients. Having owned many over the years, their basic motors can be a bonus with regard to keeping them running. Servicing takes minutes and will keep them sweet. With regard to Code 75, that could be a problem but one you'd need to suck and see. My 47s and EDs have no issues whatsoever with Code 75 but if you're using Code 100 you shouldn't have any problems at all.

Dan, my current plank isn't a TMD but I do have one stored in the ideas box for the future!

 

Hi Pete,

 

It's no worries when it comes to my track, as I have opted to use peco code 100. I know that the dead frog points don't tend to offer the best running .. but in all the layouts I have done, I have always sworn by keeping the track clean. so armed with Gaugemaster track cleaner module and a bottle of goo gone at hand .. I have always had good running even with dead frogs .. though the odd jerk or hand of god is sometimes needed (not to often though).

 

Glad to hear that you may in future model a Tmd, will keep my eyes peeled in future for that.

So what is your current model ..Any pictures?.

 

Many Thanks

Dan      

[Dannyboy2891]

I fully agree with many of the earlier comments.  The Lima diesel ultra slow speed performance is not as good as modern Bachmann/Hornby ones, but is still OK as long as the loco is serviced and the wheels are clean. Additional pickups do help with the slow speed and smoothness.  I have remotored some with motors out of CD drvies, and this improves the slow speed and the noise, and costs next to nothing to do. Additional weight helps - I have replaced the steel weight with the same volume of lead (weighing approx 180 grams) in some locos which also helps traction.  I just need time to detail them now!

 

Hi Simon,

 

Cheers for your post   

 

Will certainly consider adding those extra pick ups.. but nevertheless all adds to the characteristics of the hobby, as you might agree?.  

 

Best Wishes

Dan

[TT-Pete]

Without anywhere to run them my "strategic reserve" OO locos spend their lives in a display cabinet, so I'm not bothered about running qualities!

 

You often see nicely detailed and/or weathered LIMA locos at exhibitions and swapmeets for not very much money, a sector liveried, detailed and weathered LIMA class 47 set me back £45 last month.

['CHARD]

Pretty much echoing what others have said, really.  On a TMD or shunting-plank you don't need too much hauling capacity, although the other side of the coin is that you DO want slow speed control and a bit of finesse, which doesn't come easily to a lot of the Italian pancakes.

 

Agreed - they repay detailing and weathering rather well.  I amassed some 27 Westerns and had huge fun recreating some celebrities and favourites (which literally repaid my efforts when I sold the lot to a single collector!).  Although the Western is one of the models whose shape shortcomings are now laid bare by much better recent models, there are still a few that hold their own in my book:

 

I personally don't think the Lima 31's shape has been bettered.  Their 47 is a decent starting-point for a detailing project.  The 73 is not bad all round, and the Met-Camm DMU (101, rather than 156) is still represented (I just remembered) in my fleet by 7 Hornby vehicles.  I am also hanging onto my Lima 40 fleet of 17-odd examples.  Repowered with later Hornby guts, they are again, a decent starting point for detailing/ modification.  Plus I don't have the £1,700 on me to do a one-for-one replacement with Bachmann machines (and nor are the body styles I need available).