P2 No. 2007 Updates

[ahardy]

Evening all,

 

As some of you may have seen in other threads I am involved with the P2SLC project to build Prince of Wales a new LNER P2 for operation on the National Network.

 

There has been quite a lot of interest on here in various threads and a few people have asked if I will post updates as the work progresses. With permission from Andy Y I have started this thread to do exactly that and will from time to time add news and photos of the construction of the locomotive along with answering any questions that I can.

 

I'm not an engineer but I am a researcher. My day job involves a well known railway museum in Yorkshire where I work in Conservation and Archives but I also have a background in education. As such I carry out the Trust's research work, both historical and technical and will also undertake educational work for the project when it gets into full swing.

 

I'm not sure where people would like to start, so I think the easiest thing is to show you what we have done so far. If people would like to know more about the design work and preliminary work that has been undertaken I am happy to talk about what I can.

 

So what have we done so far? As seen in another thread James May came to Darlington and produced the first component, the smokebox door dart. This was a fantastic day, and James was brilliant fun and we had something very tangible at the end of the day. James will continue to support the project and will be making some further components in his shed.

 

The dart under construction.

 

James with the finished item.

 

Group photo time, i'm at the back!

 

The entire locomotive will be drawn in 3D Cad allowing even the smallest details like electrical cabel runs to be virtually installed making production much easier and saving time later on in the process.

 

Frame assembly CAD drawing.

 

Finally the latest news is that today the frames for the locomotive were rolled at TATA Steel in Scunthorpe. On St George's Day, Prince of Wales was born! 

 

The billet is turned ready for its first pass through the rollers to make the frame plates.

 

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask, I will do my best to answer them.

 

Many thanks

 

Andy

[andyram]

Very excited by this project, and wish it all the best. When I am a little more financially secure I will certainly be looking to contribute.

[69843]

This is certainly one of the most exiting new-builds out there for me. With the P2s having long disappeared into history, the chance to bring one back is a very nice prospect. The fact that it wil have some excellent mechanical tweaks added in in the process is a bonus frankly.

 

I can't wait to see the new P2 (a P2/4 if you will), and good luck to you all!

[ahardy]

Yesterday we had another of our P2 Roadshows in Edinburgh. Very well received by those who attended several new Coventors and Founders have joined the project. Several people have offered to help with my research work North of the border.

 

Lots of new announcements to come in the next few weeks including the first open day to see the start of the frame erection at Darlington Loco Works.

 

Andy

[sir douglas]

has anyone seen the article in Railway Magazine, which includes a gentleman (still with us) that once worked on the footplate of a P2

[69843]

I do have to ask out of curiosity-were the frames done as a joint lot with the Doncaster P2 group (which have also had their frames done recently)?

 

Apart from that, I hate being stuck down under. I'll have to drop by the works when I make it over-those works never stay empty for long, with 60163, E21249 and now 2007 in occupancy over the last 17 years.

[ahardy]

I wont get drawn into an argument regards 60163 but its a fantastic machine that performs well brings happiness to lots of crews, railway staff and enthusiasts alike.

 

The frames were ordered by ourselves with work on them continuing in the very near future. Updates will be forthcoming int he near future.

 

The article in the RM was very interesting, the do know the gent in question and its great to hear stories from people that remember the original locos.

 

69843, do visit us when you come over, there will be regular open days at DLW with the progress on the engine on show.

[Bon Accord]

I attended the presentation in Edinburgh on Saturday and must say I was very impressed with the delivery, particularly the historical background, 'mythbusting' and technical aspects, so well done to all concerned. I was already signed up as a Conventor, but it was pleasing to see a few more being signed up on the day. The models on display were particularly impressive!

[PhilH]

 

 

that 60163 is in itself still a wreck from the firebox backwards

 

You mean the cab floor's knackered?

 

Sorry if that's a bit facetious but when you play around with the things you get heartily sick of people passing on what 'they hear'. 

 

From experience 95% of it is complete b*ll*cks.

[Horsetan]

I've been told in conversation a lot of evidence .... 

 

So it's hearsay evidence? 

[Guest 2750]

I've previously had to make one departure from this site for backing up a model railway manufacturer, and I will depart again if I meet the same damning resistance about this loco. 

 

Don't forget to close the door on your way out!

[andyram]

And let us not forget these last few posts have taken things away from the true reason for this thread - to post progress and support for the new P2. I hope that this is a huge success and equals that of Tornado. It is another exciting project that, like the A1, will put our hobby into the national media.

[PhilH]

I would be interested to know what 60800's sources are for his vitriol, and his background to be able to interpret his information in the way he has.

 

In common with other working steam locos it has had its problems, hopefully mostly resolved now. I was up close and personal with the thing at Southall last week, and had conversation with the fireman who bought it in, a good mate of mine. He didn't seem to think it had too many problems, and I tend to take notice of people with practical experience who opine on matters.

 

I don't particularly like the thing, but certainly found the contents of the rant at odds with what I have heard about it.

[S.A.C Martin]

Hi Phil - knowing your background as I do, working on the MHR, what is it about 60163 that doesn't do it for you? Not a problem with you disliking it: just curious in the interests of balance.

[PhilH]

Bit off topic, but the hype got to me and I wear my disinterest as an antidote to the hysteria of others.

 

'Tis a good tool though.

[t-b-g]

When Tornado came tearing by my house a couple of weeks ago, hauling 14 carriages at around 75mph and not even working hard, it didn't look or sound like a pile of scrap.

 

I can just imagine the reaction of my good friend (and lifelong railwayman who played a big role in the Tornado project - not a businessman but a railwayman through and through) the late Malcolm Crawley if he had seen some of what has been said about his beloved Tornado. In his view, it is the best engineered, smoothest, most powerful steam loco to ever pull passenger trains in this country. And he was a loco inspector in the 1950s and rode on and worked with many classes of steam loco.

 

If there is any group of people I would trust to put a P2 on the rails, in a sensible timescale and a sound financial footing, it would be the team behind Tornado.

 

I am delighted to see the progress being made and I would like to thank ahardy for posting the updates. If I was ahardy, I would be wondering why I had bothered but I hope we can enjoy seeing further progress reports without further aggro. 

 

Tony

[S.A.C Martin]

I remember when your good self plus family, a few other Lboro students, Mr Crawley and I, all sat in the pub at Quorn & Woodhouse station after seeing Tornado unloaded at the GCR. Great times, he was a true gent and although I didn't know him very well, I have always felt a great sadness that he will never see the strides taken with the P2 project.

 

[ahardy]

I think I may ask a moderator to clean this thread up as I would like it to be for updates on th P2 project etc.

 

Bon Accord, glad you liked the presentation, I'm very pleased you liked the historical stuff, the items I talked about are just the icing on the cake with lots of new research, images and video coming to light. Keep an eye on your Mikado Messenger newsletter for more historical articles.

[melmerby]

rant mode on

I still think 2007 should be called "Duke of Rothesay"

It continues the Scottish theme from the originals and is the same person as "Prince of Wales"!!!

IMHO Prince of Wales is just plain wrong as a name for 2007. Whoever came up with that?

rant mode off

 

I still look forward to seeing it running though.

 

Keith

[Bon Accord]

rant mode on

I still think 2007 should be called "Duke of Rothesay"

It continues the Scottish theme from the originals and is the same person as "Prince of Wales"!!!

IMHO Prince of Wales is just plain wrong as a name for 2007. Whoever came up with that?

rant mode off

 

I still look forward to seeing it running though.

 

Keith

 

It was hinted at on Saturday that the loco could carry "Duke of Rothesay" plates when active in Scotland. Let us not forget that another of Charlies titles is "Lord of the Isles", and I think that'd be a much better name still!

[t-b-g]

rant mode on

I still think 2007 should be called "Duke of Rothesay"

It continues the Scottish theme from the originals and is the same person as "Prince of Wales"!!!

IMHO Prince of Wales is just plain wrong as a name for 2007. Whoever came up with that?

rant mode off

 

I still look forward to seeing it running though.

 

Keith

 

No name will suit everybody but I wouldn't saddle a Gresley design with a second hand name from a Thompson pacific.

 

It just wouldn't be right...........

 

If it hadn't been for Thompson, the P2s might have been around long enough to have one preserved and we wouldn't need to build a new one!

 

Seriously, I can understand why some folk don't approve of the name but there are bound to be some folk who wouldn't approve whatever it was called. At least "Prince of Wales" has LNER history plus a good link with a friend in a high place.

 

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it carry a few different identities, especially if one of them is Cock O' The North.

 

Tony

[S.A.C Martin]

Odd how the universe works though Tony - arguably without the Thompson Pacifics we wouldn't have had the Peppercorn A1s and therefore Tornado?

 

And without 60163 as the pathfinder, we wouldn't have no.2007 as a new project either! It's in a round about way but we should be grateful for the rich tapestry of LNER history.

 

Clearly the universe wanted both a new A1 and a new P2. Enough people have clamoured for them. We have one A1 and may end up with two P2s. Bonkers but fun to see what happens!

 

Only the A2/3 sits as the missing link in the big engine policy of the LNER now, representative of Thompsons work and showing the changes and continuation from Gresleys Pacifics. I suspect lot 3 will end up being the V4 but I do wish the commonality of parts argument held sway for the A2/3 as it does for the P2. But it's about people in numbers wanting to see it happen and I just don't think there's strong enough support for any Thompson project. Mores the pity.

[t-b-g]

Odd how the universe works though Tony - arguably without the Thompson Pacifics we wouldn't have had the Peppercorn A1s and therefore Tornado?

 

And without 60163 as the pathfinder, we wouldn't have no.2007 as a new project either! It's in a round about way but we should be grateful for the rich tapestry of LNER history.

 

Clearly the universe wanted both a new A1 and a new P2. Enough people have clamoured for them. We have one A1 and may end up with two P2s. Bonkers but fun to see what happens!

 

Only the A2/3 sits as the missing link in the big engine policy of the LNER now, representative of Thompsons work and showing the changes and continuation from Gresleys Pacifics. I suspect lot 3 will end up being the V4 but I do wish the commonality of parts argument held sway for the A2/3 as it does for the P2. But it's about people in numbers wanting to see it happen and I just don't think there's strong enough support for any Thompson project. Mores the pity.

 

I wonder if there will be a "lot 3". By the time the P2 is completed many of the people involved will be at an age where looking after two locos is probably enough without building a third. I really don't know what they would do next as it would be almost impossible to top the A1 and the P2 and any third loco would be a bit of an anticlimax. I really can't see a Thompson pacific grabbing the public imagination like those two have done.

 

Perhaps the only potential candidate for me would be the W1 in original condition......

 

I can't see the Doncaster P2 project getting anywhere fast either but I will be delighted to be proved wrong.

 

Remember that the Peppercorn A1 was largely the work of designers in Doncaster drawing office, who started it on the quiet while Thompson was still in charge. What I don't know is if that was on their own initiative or if Peppercorn prompted them. 

 

The stories about them covering up what they were working on when Thompson was around were, according to Malcolm (who worked in the drawing office with the people involved) quite true.

 

The differences of opinion over Thompson/Gresley/Peppercorn have been covered many times but Malcolm told me that the designers in the drawing office saw the Thompson design as flawed and as they knew that he was going to be leaving before too long they were pretty sure that the new boss wouldn't want to continue with what Thompson was doing and started work on what became the A1.

 

They saw it as how they thought the Gresley designs should have progressed without conjugated valve gear, rather than a development of the Thompson design.

 

Admittedly, that was very much Gresley's design team and they had a great deal of loyalty towards him and I am not saying that what Thompson was doing was good or bad, just suggesting that the development of the A1 had more to do with updating a Gresley design than a Thompson one.

 

Tony

[69843]

I wonder if there will be a "lot 3". By the time the P2 is completed many of the people involved will be at an age where looking after two locos is probably enough without building a third. I really don't know what they would do next as it would be almost impossible to top the A1 and the P2 and any third loco would be a bit of an anticlimax. I really can't see a Thompson pacific grabbing the public imagination like those two have done.

 

Perhaps the only potential candidate for me would be the W1 in original condition......

While I do agree that a lot of people are getting on (not ment in any rude way), the other major problem is going to be the younger generation of enthusiasts.

 

These days, railway enthusiasts are a dying breed. With computer gaming, iPods and other factors, there isn't the same amount of intrest in the railways, and even when there is, the problem now is that 'our' generation has only ever experienced preserved steam-if ever! That being said, it still is wonderful to see those of a similar age to myself (17) chipping in to railway preservation.

 

Down here, there are a few of us younger enthusiasts that are willing to get involved, but not many. I got involved due to the fact that I both love the trains, and felt like giving something back to the railway community, but I know people who won't get involved as it's 'too much hard work'. I always enjoy attending to passengers on trips as it provides a unique experience for them, and is an immense amount of fun with the chance to work with and meet some lovely people.

 

 

As to the A1SLT and P2SLC, it is great to see not only the new builds that they create, but that it draws people from all over the world to have a look. I rarely see a photo of Tornado running by a station without a large crowd there to see her pass by. While we get enthusiasts on the lineside, it rarely gets like that.

 

While I think it's a might to early to discuss a 'lot 3', I think that something like a V4, K3 or L1 would be nice, as a smaller locomotive able to be used on both the mainline and on smaller preserved railways. I am thrilled by the idea of seeing the P2 come to life, and I can't wait to see her in full flight!

[melmerby]

 

 At least "Prince of Wales" has LNER history plus a good link with a friend in a high place.

 

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it carry a few different identities, especially if one of them is Cock O' The North.

 

Tony

It's the same chap!

The Prince of Wales is the "Duke of Rothesay" when he is north of the border and I wouldn't be surprised if he would approve of that title on the loco.

 

Keith