Newcastle Emlyn - Early goods rolling stock

[Anotheran]

Chris,

 

I already have a folder in my favourites labelled "ChrisN" as you keep on piling in the information! So much more for me to look at.

 

I like the porter, you're right, I need to get at least one. You say a fair number. but in 1903 there were only a total of five staff on the station, so I would imagine only one or at most two porters. In the mid 20s there were eleven staff, including three porters. So I'll definitely need a few of them then.

 

I hadn't noticed your thread on 6 wheelers. So that will be reading for tonight! As for the other links, I will definitely be following them and amassing more and more information that is all the time pulling me in to start on NE... but not until DE is a little more advanced!

[ChrisN]

Neil,

Thank you, I am glad to help, and others have passed things my way before.  I used to spend more time looking at stuff than modelling.  Which reminds me, I need to go and paint something. 

[Anotheran]

The picture of Cader Idris on dissused-stations shows two carriages of what would be a three carriage set. From what I can tell the first two are four wheelers. Behind the loco is a five compartment third (which Ratio do as kit 610) then comes a full brake (which can be made up from Ratio kit 610 and Shirescenes sides S101). The third should be a composite. In the photo it appears to be a clerestory coach, which surprises me. For now that will need to be one of my Triang clerestories, which I know doesn't match any prototype, but will allow me to take the picture before replacing it with something more prototypical.

[corneliuslundie]

Not sure if this is already in the info Chris has goiven you but here is an extract from the GWR summer 1911 Swansea District carriage working book.

 

No 59

Compo (2) - Third - Van (Six wheel stock)

#6.20 am Pencader to Newcastle Emlyn.

8.10 am Newcastle Emlyn to Pencader.

8.45 am Pencader to Newcastle Emlyn.

9.25 am Newcastle Emlyn to Pencader.

10.17 am Pencader to Newcastle Emlyn

11.0 am Newcastle Emlyn to Pencader.

11.50 am Pencader to Newcastle Emlyn

2.10 pm Newcastle Emlyn to Pencader.

3.17 pm Pencader to Newcastle Emlyn

#4.50 pm Newcastle Emlyn to Pencader.

6.18 pm Pencader to Newcastle Emlyn

7.15 pm Newcastle Emlyn to Pencader.

# Portion Newcastle Emlyn and Carmarthen

Extra third all trips on Fridays, Saturdays and Fair Days.

Trains connecting with Carmarthen to have through portion SO, Fair Days and days when traffic is heavy.

 

No 59a

Brake third - Third - Brake third

12.35 pm Newcastle Emlyn to Pencader.

1.50 pm Pencader to Newcastle Emlyn (runs MSO, July 15th to September 14th).

 

Regarding six wheel coaches, I have the same problem on the Rhymney and am using the etched brass Clemison style underframes produced by Brassmasters. I haven't finished any coaches yet but the chassis seem to work well.

 

And I would recommend joining the WRRC. A friendly bunch and very knowledgeable. They are not by any means all real researchers, though some are. I joined to find out information for modelling a prototype location and have  never regretted it.

[Anotheran]

Hi corneliuslundie (I don't know if that's your name, or the name of a layout, sorry). Thank you very much for commenting on my thread. Given that everything is still in planning it's really nice to get responses to the thread from so many people.

 

I've not had information from Chris specifically on the NE branch. But lots of inspiration, encouragement and loads of links to lots of sites. But I do have it from the GWRJ No. 37 which had a fantastic 40 page article on the branch (with lots of photos of NE that I'd not previously seen). It also has similar for July 1912 and then also for 1922. It's interesting that for 1912 they swapped the van and the third around compared to 1911, while in 1922 they used two sets, one the same as the 1911 set and a second one that was two 8 wheel coaches: van 3rd and composite.

 

Thanks for the pointer to Clemison. I'll take a look at them when I come to the coaches. Though, as I've said above, I'm a fair while from building coaches as NE is still very much in planning (if you ignore the three trees that I made with my nephew and niece). I'll also probably start with the earlier dates, around 1906, when I can use Ratio 4 wheel stock (though I will need to use replacement sides to get a full brake for the set).

 

I have had a quick look at the WWRC site, and I think I'm about to spend some more money... to join them! There certainly seems to be a lot of information on there (much to non members as well) so definitely worth the £15 I think.

 

Do you have a thread for Rhymney? I'd love to see what you're doing with your coaches as well as anything you may be doing on your layout.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[MarkAustin]

Thanks for that Mark. I have had a look at the on-line catalogue of the NLW and have noted down a number of items that I need to have a look at. Will be a while before I can get there, but at least it's reasonable close to NE as well so I will be able to take some hillside shots over the river for the backscene.

 

as for my period... I don't really have one. A key reason for choosing NE for my layout was that the track plan was almost static from opening in 1895 to the removal of the signal box and loco shed in the 1960s. Even the station building appears to have been left in GW colours throughout. So with some removable buildings and signs and a variety of people and vehicles I intend to model pretty much the whole life of the line (as I intend to leave the demolition of the SB and loco shed until closure in 1972 to allow me to run some blue diesels). I'm even considering allowing the failed preservation group to succeed and thus keep it open to modern day with preserved locos and stock running. But that's all quite a way in the future.

 

It's actually ChrisN's work that has got me looking more closely at the first decade of the line. It looks very interesting, though will also involve quite a bit of kit and scratch building as there's not much ready to run late Victorian and Edwardian stock! I plan to continue following Chris!

 

Neil

If you're looking at a multi-period layout, may I share a trick with you that I got from Tom Knapp of the Nn3 Alliance (he's USA based and models the 3ft NG lines). He does the same thing, and has cars, people, anything that's period specific and fixed, detachable and fixed in place by a pin in, for example, the foot/leg of a figure locating in a tube sunk in the baseboard. Things can be removed and replaced quickli, but can't be knocked over by a jolt on the baseboard.

 

Mark A

[Anotheran]

Thanks Mark. I intend some similar mechanism. Someone, I think it was Shaun, said they used hobbytack... not as strong as a pin, but also a good idea.

[Anotheran]

Well thanks to Dagworth on the RMWebLive thread I now have a QR code to label Newcastle Emlyn should I ever get it to the quality required and then get invited to exhibit...

Such a great idea, point your smart phone at it and you get the RMWeb thread for the layout! I think all exhibition layouts should do this! Of course, I've generated one for DE as well

 

Edit: The url for the generator is https://www.the-qrcode-generator.com/

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Jaz]

clever idea....

 

edit = thanks for sharing 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Jaz

[aberdare]

Hi Neil

 

I love the photo in #82, the 517's are one of my favourite locos so I had a read through some of info and found that 215 was built in June 1876 and scrapped in Jan 1934. It spent its early years in the Northern divisions until around the late 1920s, it was in an accident at Curry Rivel, Somerset in 23 so probably moved to the central Wales area after that. It was fitted out for auto train working prior to 1922.

 

The number 215 was later used on an 0-6-2 (I think), anyway if you want me to look for any more details if there are any I will happily do so.

 

Like I said they are a favourite of mine with very interesting histories as some of them changed so much during their lives.

 

Jim

[Anotheran]

Jim,

 

Thank you so much for the identification and classification of the loco in the picture. As you probably saw from the following posts I guessed it was a 4800 or 5800... the 517's successor and couldn't make out the number at all. It's really great to have someone come along and identify it properly, and then give its history.

 

It would be great to know if that specific loco ran on the NE branch at all. From the GW Journal #37 I know that of the 517 class quite a few ran on the branch between 1921 and 1934 (No.s 219, 221, 536, 538, 557, 845, 547 and 1427) Sadly 215 doesn't appear in the list in that journal. However, it does describe the list as "examples of the engines working over the line during the twenties and early thirties" so isn't claiming to be exhaustive.

 

I'll have to look out for a model in the future... but loco building is a little way off for me as yet. I have to admit that (unlike the crew I suspect) I do like the open cab builds more than the closed cab shown in the picture. But I suspect that by the twenties that they had all been rebuilt with closed cabs. Though if you have any information to the contrary it would be nice to have some variety.

 

With just my quick search around after your post I can see why they are one of your favourite locos!

 

Kind regards, Neil

[ChrisN]

Jim,

(Neil, I hope you do not mind if I cross post.)  Could you point me in the direction of any information on the 517s and if any ran from to Ruabon in the 1890s please?  I have a Metro tank which I know ran down there but not until the 1920s I think.

 

Thanks

[Anotheran]

I don't mind you cross posting at all Chris... it's fascinating stuff!

[ChrisN]

Neil,

I will have to say this quietly so that Jim will not hear.  You need to look at his layout as it is superb.  A GWR line set in 1905.

 

A note on the Metro tanks.  I do not think any managed to get out of London until probably into the second decade of the 20th Century, but I still have one.  I also have some Holden 4 wheelers that they used to pull through the tunnels on the metropolitan Line all the way to Aldgate.  Unfortunately the ones in the tunnels did not have buffers and the ones I have do so it was when they were liberated to other parts of the country.  This is what comes of only doing half your homework!

[Anotheran]

Chris,

 

For some reason I spotted Hemyock a couple of months ago and started reading it, and flagged as follow. However, I must have clicked on the last page somehow as it is set as all having been read, so I've not returned to finish my viewing since I went on holiday. It looks like I only actually read the first page! So thank you very much for pointing me back in that direction. Jim can expect a rash of ratings on old postings!

 

Kind regards, Neil

[aberdare]

Jim,

(Neil, I hope you do not mind if I cross post.)  Could you point me in the direction of any information on the 517s and if any ran from to Ruabon in the 1890s please?  I have a Metro tank which I know ran down there but not until the 1920s I think.

 

Thanks

 

I use one of the RCTS locomotive books, part 6, four coupled tank engines. For my own use I have then cross referenced with the GWR engine sheds for more info and sometimes into the RCTS absorbed engines, part 3. I'm usually lost under a pile of books when researching.

 

From what I've read it would seem unlikely that a 517 would have run into Ruabon but what do I know? I;ll keep an eye open and if I find anything I will let you know.

[aberdare]

Cheers Neil

 

I found a number of likes from you when I logged back in today, thank you.

[Jaz]

Cheers Neil

 

I found a number of likes from you when I logged back in today, thank you.

I was really enjoying your thread, have you got anything to pop up since your last post on Hemyock?

[emt_911]

Neil

 

Now managed to read through this thread. Like many of the Lunester threads, lots of input, information, ideas and suggestions.

 

Really looking forward to seeing this develop.

 

Duncan

[Anotheran]

Thanks Duncan, and welcome to NE.

 

Thank you for the rush of ratings! I'm enjoying how it's going. Obviously I am looking forwards to scenic and detailing work on both DE and here, but I am really enjoying the planning and latterly the wiring on DE. I'm showing all of my steps as I'm very much new to the hobby, so by displaying all my mistakes along the routes that I take hopefully other newbies can find something useful as most of the people on here are very experienced and may not document something purely because to them it's automatic. But it's gratifying to also get positive comments (as well as lots of encouragement) from those same more experienced modellers.

 

As for the Lunester threads, they are amazingly inspirational as they're full of people who want to share their ideas, and have lots of fun doing it!

 

Kind regards, Neil

[Anotheran]

A plea for information...

 

While at Warley at the weekend I looked in on the Signalling records Society stand. I have, for a while, intended to join to get hold of a number of their diagrams at a discount. Unfortunately I couldn't join at the show and get the discount... so I gave in to temptation and paid out the full amount so that I could get the NE diagram.

 

So now I'm very pleased, I have the full resolution diagram for which I only had a poor low resolution version before. But it has raised some questions for me that I'm going to throw up here. The first two are illustrated on the following grab of a small portion of the diagram.

I assume that the 160 yds distance measurement given is the distance from the signal box, but would like someone who knows to confirm this for me. The second question relates to the small length of line alongside the running line with the lever number 5 associated. What is this? Is it a points lock? There are only two on NE, but I've seen a lot more on some of the busier diagrams.

 

The last question (for now) that I have is what is a weighted point?

 

 

I assume that all of the points that do not have a number are operated from ground frames. But these two are labelled as "weighted points". What does that mean? Photos indicate that they also had ground frame levers, but I can't see anything special about them. Any answer would be gratefully received as my usual resource (Google) has proved unusually unhelpful. I have found a number of references to weighted points, but not one that actually explains what they are.

 

At the weekend I'll be updating my mimic diagram to have the correct point and signal numbers... oh what joys everyone has to look forward to.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Donington Road]

A plea for information...

 

While at Warley at the weekend I looked in on the Signalling records Society stand. I have, for a while, intended to join to get hold of a number of their diagrams at a discount. Unfortunately I couldn't join at the show and get the discount... so I gave in to temptation and paid out the full amount so that I could get the NE diagram.

 

So now I'm very pleased, I have the full resolution diagram for which I only had a poor low resolution version before. But it has raised some questions for me that I'm going to throw up here. The first two are illustrated on the following grab of a small portion of the diagram.

signals question 1.png

 

I assume that the 160 yds distance measurement given is the distance from the signal box, but would like someone who knows to confirm this for me. The second question relates to the small length of line alongside the running line with the lever number 5 associated. What is this? Is it a points lock? There are only two on NE, but I've seen a lot more on some of the busier diagrams.

 

The last question (for now) that I have is what is a weighted point?

 

signals question 2.png

 

I assume that all of the points that do not have a number are operated from ground frames. But these two are labelled as "weighted points". What does that mean? Photos indicate that they also had ground frame levers, but I can't see anything special about them. Any answer would be gratefully received as my usual resource (Google) has proved unusually unhelpful. I have found a number of references to weighted points, but not one that actually explains what they are.

 

At the weekend I'll be updating my mimic diagram to have the correct point and signal numbers... oh what joys everyone has to look forward to

 

Weighted (sprung) points: Have a look here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91833-hand-operated-points/?hl=%2Bweighted+%2Bpoints&do=findComment&comment=1639439

[Anotheran]

Weighted (sprung) points: Have a look here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91833-hand-operated-points/?hl=%2Bweighted+%2Bpoints&do=findComment&comment=1639439

 

Thanks Mick, that gives me something to read this evening! At a first look it seems to be my answer, but I'm still not fully understanding. Is it saying that the lever has to be held for the whole movement through the point if the desired route is in the reverse direction, or is there a weight that holds it in place?

[Donington Road]

Thanks Mick, that gives me something to read this evening! At a first look it seems to be my answer, but I'm still not fully understanding. Is it saying that the lever has to be held for the whole movement through the point if the desired route is in the reverse direction, or is there a weight that holds it in place?

 

I am sure that is correct.

Take the photo below showing weighted levers:  If the wagons came out of the yard the wheels would throw the points as they pass through and the weight would return the point blade to its current position.  When the wagons return to the same siding a human would pull the lever away from the track and hold it in that position until all the wagons have passed, when releasing the lever the weight would return the point blades to their current position.

 

There is further reading with the links below, some of it is heavy going and I cannot say from scaning them quickly that it says the lever has to be held all the time.

 

http://www.microlp.co.uk/Homea/homeafiles/Point%20types%20NL3-020609ni.pdf

http://www.valleysignals.org.nz/track/springpoints.html

http://www.irse.org/minorrailways/publicdocuments/PA01%20-%20Mechanically%20Operated%20Points%20v2.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/mines06.pdf

 

Edited November 27, 2014 by Donington Road

[Anotheran]

Take the photo below showing weighted levers

 

Thanks again Mick. I'd seen that photo from the previous link you sent to me. On that one it says the weights are on collars so can actually be swung around to pull the opposite direction. However, I thought that one was either European or US, so couldn't see anything similar in anything from the UK. However, your new set of links give me a lot more to read through, so thanks for that. I will go through them today to see what I can glean.

 

My confusion is made worse by the fact that I have a clear picture of the point lever in the ground frame immediately in front of the signal box (the one on the left of the small part of the diagram I gave above). The photo was taken in the 1950s and there is only the lever, no sign of a weight, pedal for spring, or anything out of the ordinary. Of course, as I have to be able to operate the points on the model as if they are normal points anyway I can just reproduce what I see on the photo, but I would like to understand the meaning of the signalling diagram as well!