Newcastle Emlyn - Early goods rolling stock

[corneliuslundie]

Re: "Hi corneliuslundie (I don't know if that's your name, or the name of a layout, sorry). "

 

Cornelius Lundie was the General Manager and later a director of the Rhymney Railway in the latter part of the 19th century. To quote Ahrons:

"Perhaps the most interesting part of the Rhymney Railway was the late Mr Cornelius Lundie, who was General Manager for more than 40 years, and one of the most remarkable railway personalities of the last century. One cannot mention the Rhymney Railway without associating Mr Lundie with it, for it might be said, without great exaggeration, that Mr Lundie was the Rhymney Railway Company, and that the Rhymney Railway Company was Mr Lundie."

 

He retired when 89 and was made a director. He died at 93 after catching a chill on a GWR train on his way to or from London to attend a Board bmeeting. Ahrons has a good deal more to say about him is his usual amusing style.

 

Back on topic, I have never seen anything like those weighted levers shown above on the GWR, but neither have I come across them on a signal box diagram, so I do not imagine they were very common. It would seem logical that they were operated as suggested, ie held over when a train passed over the turnout in the "other" direction, but none of the types of GWR hand lever I have seen would seem to perform that task. I should have thought that they might be useful in performing the same role as a catch point, which could also be held over when it was required to run over it in a facing direction. Now, might that mechanism be a clue?

 

And no-one has specifically answered your question about the line marked 5 in the plan. Yes, it is a facing point locking bar. Any turnout over which passenger trains operated in the facing direction had to have these. To model it you need a bar parallel to one of the running rails just beyond the turnout, sitting inside the rail, long enough to be longer than the maximum distance between wheels of any vehicle - usually the inner bogie wheels of a bogie vehicle. In the prototype the bar would be raised up by the FPL lever when it was reversed so that the point lever could be reversed. If there was a vehicle in the way it could not be raised and the turnout could not be changed. (Sorry if I am telling my grandmother how to suck eggs!)

 

I am enjoying your thread and the discussion of the decisions needed before you can even start a layout.

 

Jonathan David (my real name)

[The Stationmaster]

A plea for information...

 

While at Warley at the weekend I looked in on the Signalling records Society stand. I have, for a while, intended to join to get hold of a number of their diagrams at a discount. Unfortunately I couldn't join at the show and get the discount... so I gave in to temptation and paid out the full amount so that I could get the NE diagram.

 

So now I'm very pleased, I have the full resolution diagram for which I only had a poor low resolution version before. But it has raised some questions for me that I'm going to throw up here. The first two are illustrated on the following grab of a small portion of the diagram.

signals question 1.png

 

I assume that the 160 yds distance measurement given is the distance from the signal box, but would like someone who knows to confirm this for me. The second question relates to the small length of line alongside the running line with the lever number 5 associated. What is this? Is it a points lock? There are only two on NE, but I've seen a lot more on some of the busier diagrams.

 

The last question (for now) that I have is what is a weighted point?

 

signals question 2.png

 

I assume that all of the points that do not have a number are operated from ground frames. But these two are labelled as "weighted points". What does that mean? Photos indicate that they also had ground frame levers, but I can't see anything special about them. Any answer would be gratefully received as my usual resource (Google) has proved unusually unhelpful. I have found a number of references to weighted points, but not one that actually explains what they are.

 

At the weekend I'll be updating my mimic diagram to have the correct point and signal numbers... oh what joys everyone has to look forward to

Without wishing to duplicate any earlier replies - so sorry if I do!

 

The little line labelled 5 is technically the symbol for a facing point locking bar although some people have used it in sketches for a facing point lock (which is technically incorrect)  However as the points would have had a facing point locking bar and I would be surprised if it was ever replaced by a track circuit I am sure in this case it is correctly drawn and represeenting the locking bar.

 

The arrangement of the 'weighted', i.e. sprung handpoints is interesting and clearly done to prevent any miss-shunt towards the runround loop although quite why I don't know - possibly due to gradient but I suspect most likley because something had runaway in that direction at some time and someone had decided they didn't want it to happen again.  Quite what hand lever arrangement was used is open to debate but it might have had a hold-down pedal although not all sprung point leverboxes on the Western had pedals (I reckon that in fact the majority didn't have pedals) and it could just as easily have been a plain handpoint lever especially as here the need to swing the points was probably infrequent - certainly so for that nearer the runround stopblock. 

 

We are also of course assuming the diagram is correctly annotated (or even accurate) and that both of these points were sprung or indeed that either or both remained in that state over the entire life of the layout - the drawing being undated apart from the date when it was drawn.  So not a conclusive answer I'm aftraid;

[Anotheran]

Jonathan and Stationmaster,

 

Thank you for your informative responses to my questions on both sprung levers and the point locking bar. On the former, I'm still trying to find a photo that shows anything that is different from a normal lever. On the latter I'll look again at the photos in the relevant positions and model the locking bar once I get to that point.

 

Sorry for the short response right now. Will answer in more detail later in the week when I've had a chance to digest and look again at the source photos.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[MarkAustin]

Re: "Hi corneliuslundie (I don't know if that's your name, or the name of a layout, sorry). "

 

Cornelius Lundie was the General Manager and later a director of the Rhymney Railway in the latter part of the 19th century. To quote Ahrons:

"Perhaps the most interesting part of the Rhymney Railway was the late Mr Cornelius Lundie, who was General Manager for more than 40 years, and one of the most remarkable railway personalities of the last century. One cannot mention the Rhymney Railway without associating Mr Lundie with it, for it might be said, without great exaggeration, that Mr Lundie was the Rhymney Railway Company, and that the Rhymney Railway Company was Mr Lundie."

 

He retired when 89 and was made a director. He died at 93 after catching a chill on a GWR train on his way to or from London to attend a Board bmeeting. Ahrons has a good deal more to say about him is his usual amusing style.

 

Back on topic, I have never seen anything like those weighted levers shown above on the GWR, but neither have I come across them on a signal box diagram, so I do not imagine they were very common. It would seem logical that they were operated as suggested, ie held over when a train passed over the turnout in the "other" direction, but none of the types of GWR hand lever I have seen would seem to perform that task. I should have thought that they might be useful in performing the same role as a catch point, which could also be held over when it was required to run over it in a facing direction. Now, might that mechanism be a clue?

 

And no-one has specifically answered your question about the line marked 5 in the plan. Yes, it is a facing point locking bar. Any turnout over which passenger trains operated in the facing direction had to have these. To model it you need a bar parallel to one of the running rails just beyond the turnout, sitting inside the rail, long enough to be longer than the maximum distance between wheels of any vehicle - usually the inner bogie wheels of a bogie vehicle. In the prototype the bar would be raised up by the FPL lever when it was reversed so that the point lever could be reversed. If there was a vehicle in the way it could not be raised and the turnout could not be changed. (Sorry if I am telling my grandmother how to suck eggs!)

 

I am enjoying your thread and the discussion of the decisions needed before you can even start a layout.

 

Jonathan David (my real name)

Before the GWR used bar levers, the standard lever was a weighted lever that was switched forward and back parallel to the running line. It's not a very clear photograph, but in the Templot and hand laid track forum, there's a photgraph of a ladder of Barry slips (in Barry Yard) with just such a lever. they continued to be used in yards as locos go go through them the wrong way and the lever would simply lift up as the blades were pushed aside. You couldn't do that with the bar lever type. There are drawings in the GWR track book. I'll scan and post them tonight or tomorrow

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93181-barry-slips-at-barry/

 

Mark A

[The Stationmaster]

Before the GWR used bar levers, the standard lever was a weighted lever that was switched forward and back parallel to the running line. It's not a very clear photograph, but in the Templot and hand laid track forum, there's a photgraph of a ladder of Barry slips (in Barry Yard) with just such a lever. they continued to be used in yards as locos go go through them the wrong way and the lever would simply lift up as the blades were pushed aside. You couldn't do that with the bar lever type. There are drawings in the GWR track book. I'll scan and post them tonight or tomorrow

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93181-barry-slips-at-barry/

 

Mark A

What's a 'bar type lever' please - it sounds a bit like a normal two-way handpoint lever but if it couldn't be trailed then it was presumably something else?

[Anotheran]

Another couple of weeks since my last post and still nothing more to say on any actual modelling! When I started this thread in May it was with the expectation that I was close to actually doing some stuff that would then keep going. Sadly I find is amazing how much free time can disappear without building anything. Even in the last couple of weeks free time has been consumed by buying and then constructing a wall and a half of shelving from a well known  Swedish company (and that is still to be finished) and when I have had some time for model railways I've been using it to attend shows or open days!

 

However, I have two weeks off work over Christmas and only five days of that are currently accounted for by family visits etc. So I should be able to get a solid few days worth of modelling in. In that time I expect to concentrate fully on DE. I'd love to get the track finished at least! One result of the new shelving downstairs is that I've been revamping and reorganising the office/modelling room. Which should make things easier. However, I have spent some of my travel time reading, taking notes and playing some more with Excel and AnyRail. So for those that are still interested in the pre-modelling phase of NE read on...

[Anotheran]

Firstly, on the weighted points. I have realised that the photos I have of the lever that I thought was labelled as weighted on the diagram was in fact the next lever along on the ground. So I still don't know what they will look like. The photos and information that have been posted above by Jonathan, Mark and Stationmaster give me something to start with. But I have to say that it will be a long time before any such levers appear. The question only arose now because I got hold of the signal diagram!

[Anotheran]

With the signal diagram from SRS and also some information from the photos in the GWR Journal I've updated by mimic diagram to have the correct signal and point numbering, and added in such things as the loading gauge.

 

 

I've represented the signals as lights as they will eventually be drilled out on my physical mimic panel for LEDs. I should, however, come up with a way to distinguish between a ground signal and a post mounted semaphore. Black numbers are the correct lever numbers for points and signals. I have added the suffixes A and B for paired points as although they were operated from the same lever I will need a way to refer to them individually electronically on the model. The purple numbers from 21 upwards are unnumbered on the diagram as they are the ground lever operated points (so no lever in the signal box). I don't intend to operate them via ground levers on the model, so have numbered them for operational purposes!

 

As I've said before, my diagrams are done in AnyRail and I particularly like it for the production of this sort of mimic diagram (using Hornby set-track elements!) I think it will result in a nice looking physical mimic board once it's done!

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Anotheran]

With information from the well illustrated article in the Great Western Railway journal 37 I have been able to add in some greater detail on my plan for NE. I've been able to better site signals and also ground point levers. I've also managed to place the loading gauge, which you can see to the right of the signal box, just before the ground signal.

 

 

Again from the photos I've added in the additional lean-to structures on the building to the left. I've also put in the spur from the turntable top right. While I was planning to leave this out until I extended the layout to include the turntable and engine shed in the future the journal gave an account, and has a photo, showing that this was the coaling point for the locos at NE. A coal wagon was parked in the spur and the loco was pulled up alongside it on the turntable approach line. I couldn't really leave out something that was of operational and modelling interest.

 

I've still got a couple of points levers to add on the roads around the goods shed for which I have no photos. But other than those (and a lot more trees) the plan is pretty much complete.

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Anotheran]

The final thing that I've been spending work time doing is some more playing around with Excel. This time I took the 1906 timetable and looked at the whole branch so I reproduced the passenger trains in a chart format.

 

 

I find this quite fascinating as it shows the NE movements in the context of the full length of the single track branch. For this year I don't yet have the freight times, but this will be one branch freight (as required) and one through freight from Carmarthen each day, as per 1896 and 1911. In 1906, however, there's not as much space to fit those freights in, so I will be interested to see where it does go!

 

On the diagram purple and blue are down (as if I needed to tell you that!) with the purple one being the train that appears timetabled all the way through from London! Red and orange are up, with orange being the through train. On those through trains it would be interesting to find out how many carriages are added and removed on the complete journey!

 

The point markers mark the stopping places with square ones being Saturday only. I plan on making my 1906 timetable Saturday as that will mean I have fourteen passenger movements and four freight (and associated shunting) movements. I don't want mainline busy, but I want as much of a timetable as I can get on my little BLT!

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[BG John]

I've just discovered this, as I haven't been hanging out on RMweb for a while, and will follow with interest, as it's my local station (or rather would have been if I'd lived here at the time!). Somewhere on my wish list of layouts I'll probably never build, is what NE might have looked like in broad gauge days if the Carmarthen and Cardigan Railway had kept heading west, rather than stopping at Llandysul.

[Anotheran]

I've just discovered this, as I haven't been hanging out on RMweb for a while, and will follow with interest, as it's my local station (or rather would have been if I'd lived here at the time!). Somewhere on my wish list of layouts I'll probably never build, is what NE might have looked like in broad gauge days if the Carmarthen and Cardigan Railway had kept heading west, rather than stopping at Llandysul.

Hi John, welcome to my thread and thank you so much for posting. You live in a beautiful part of the world! I hope in following you don't get too bored, as it is slow going. But I will get there eventually, unlike the line to Cardigan!

 

I have to admit that I have read about broad gauge C&CR days with interest and seeing a couple of models in BG has piqued my interest, including your (not so) totally pointless thread. But when I looked at it more realistically I just couldn't see me having the time. Maybe in 20 years or so when I'm retired I also briefly considered sticking with SG but on the basis that the line had been completed and that NE was, therefore, a through station. But I realised that would mean losing the engine shed and turntable like Landysul did when it was extended to NE (even though they're not planned for phase one of my layout I do want them available for phase 2!)

 

Hence me sticking with the prototype, or pretty close to it. But I still get pretty much a century of fairly consistent track formation if I work on the basis of the preservation society succeeding and running through to the 1980s and 1990s. But will start with some interesting periods quite early on.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[BG John]

All I see see of the area most of the time is not at all beautiful mud! A lot of rain is needed to keep it so green!

 

Modelling broad gauge is hard work, which is why I'm re-motivating myself with my first 00 layout in 43 years. It means things will happen a lot faster, I hope!

 

Preservation of a sort could still happen, if you've got a couple of million going spare to cross the Teifi!

[The Stationmaster]

Neil,

 

A couple of things,

1. The normal convention for using A & B suffixes on point ends on crossovers etc is that the A end is that nearest the signalbox.

 

2. Differentiate ground signals - a simple answer might be to use different colour LEDs instead of red/green, depending on what is available of course

 

All looking most impressive and the latest detail plan really shows what's going on (nice timetable graph too - good to see someone actually managing to do a good job on one in Excel)

[Anotheran]

1. The normal convention for using A & B suffixes on point ends on crossovers etc is that the A end is that nearest the signalbox.

2. Differentiate ground signals - a simple answer might be to use different colour LEDs instead of red/green, depending on what is available of course

 

All looking most impressive and the latest detail plan really shows what's going on (nice timetable graph too - good to see someone actually managing to do a good job on one in Excel)

Mike,

 

I didn't know whether to click Thanks or Informative, so went for the former!

 

Thank you again for your very informative comments. I shall amend the A and B labels on the mimic diagram in the next day or so. I've managed to get all of them wrong... at least I'm consistent! I shall think on the LEDs. I'm still thinking through what colours I will use for points, signals, and maybe isolated track when running DC.

 

As for the Excel diagram, it was fun to do, but did take quite a while. The points are all plotted from the data, but not the "natural" way for Excel, so each series needs to be added one at a time. Then each of those series were formatted separately to get the colours and points I wanted. Having done one though I think the next will be quicker, and adding the freight in will be a simple exercise.

 

I'm not getting much modelling done though, so am a little surprised that anyone is still interested, so thank you very much for contributing.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

I didn't know whether to click Thanks or Informative, so went for the former!

 

Thank you again for your very informative comments. I shall amend the A and B labels on the mimic diagram in the next day or so. I've managed to get all of them wrong... at least I'm consistent! I shall think on the LEDs. I'm still thinking through what colours I will use for points, signals, and maybe isolated track when running DC.

 

As for the Excel diagram, it was fun to do, but did take quite a while. The points are all plotted from the data, but not the "natural" way for Excel, so each series needs to be added one at a time. Then each of those series were formatted separately to get the colours and points I wanted. Having done one though I think the next will be quicker, and adding the freight in will be a simple exercise.

 

I'm not getting much modelling done though, so am a little surprised that anyone is still interested, so thank you very much for contributing.

 

Kind regards, Neil

And now you know why nobody on the 'big railway' ever thought for more than a few minutes about using Excel for timetable graphs - and why it took so long to get any software that was reasonably good at the task.

[corneliuslundie]

I assume that you will have Dylan Thomas's grandfather on the platform? (see WRA November 2014 - he was a guard on the line).

[Donington Road]

I'm not getting much modelling done though, so am a little surprised that anyone is still interested,

 

Still watching here with interest

[Anotheran]

On 16/12/2014 at 13:56, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that you will have Dylan Thomas's grandfather on the platform? (see WRA November 2014 - he was a guard on the line).

 

Jonathan,

 

Now you've told me that I have little option! Though I think I'll need some advice from Chris on modifying little people for the correct period... and Jaz on making them look like the real person, assuming of course there is a suitable photograph to work with!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

 

Edited to say I've found a photo at https://sites.google.com/site/dylanthomasandhisaunties/his-paternal-aunts-and-uncles

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

 

Now you've told me that I have little option! Though I think I'll need some advice from Chris on modifying little people for the correct period... and Jaz on making them look like the real person, assuming of course there is a suitable photograph to work with!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

 

Edited to say I've found a photo https://sites.google.com/site/dylanthomasandhisaunties/dylan-and-his-aunties-a-portrait-of-the-poet-as-an-only-child/paternal-aunts-and-cousins

 

Neil,

If you look on A. C. Stadden's web site you will probably find what you want.

 

I am hoping to get the National Archives in Kew during the spring.  I will not make any promises but I may be able to get some WTTs if you would like me to look.  I assume you have the 1906 timetable.

 

The planning is looking good.  I have done a timetable in Excel for my narrow gauge railway so I know how long it takes, but fun though.

[Anotheran]

On 16/12/2014 at 11:47, The Stationmaster said:

And now you know why nobody on the 'big railway' ever thought for more than a few minutes about using Excel for timetable graphs

Mike, you may not have realised it, but you set me a challenge there!

 

While the timetable graph took quite a bit of time it wasn't particularly difficult, just repetitive in what needed to be done line by line, point by point etc... so I thought I'd see if I could knock up a macro to do the hard work for me. The result for the 1911 timetable is below:

 

 

At the moment it's a bit clunky. You can add any number of stations by inserting columns in the table that starts in cell B10, and any number of trains can be added by inserting rows in the same table, but at the moment you have to put the limit data in the table in the top left corner. It then uses the colours in the colour key (that you can change to whatever colours you want) matching them against the codes in the first column of the timetable and draws the chart... as on the right. (Actually it draws it about a quarter of the size, but I have resized and positioned it)

 

It does need intermediate stations to have two columns so that arrival and departure times can be shown on the same row, and at the moment it will show an empty section (as in not join the points) if the train doesn't stop at an intermediate station.

 

But, I'm pleased with the result so far. I'll tweak it a bit more and then make it available if anyone else is interested (though I doubt I can post a macro enabled file on this site, so would probably need to be by PM). The one shown above took about 10 minutes to enter the timetable data, and about 5 seconds to resize the chart once the macro had drawn it.The chart can then be copied and pasted anywhere else independent of the timetable. The last one took the same data entry time, but about another 15 minutes to draw and format the chart... so my bit of playing with Excel has paid off for me!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Jaz]

I need to read and catch up here, but am racing thru .....dropped in to say how nice it was meeting u this year, and to wish you and yours a 

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Edited December 22, 2014 by Jaz

[Anotheran]

I need to read and catch up here, but am racing thru .....dropped in to say how nice it was meeting u this year, and to with you and yours a 

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Thank you so much Jaz. Was really good to meet you and Kal too. Hope a new burst of health comes with the New Year. So from me, you have that wish, and also a very merry Christmas!

[Jock67B]

Morning Neil,

Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your planning wth us, it has been very educational. I would also like to wish you and all your family a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Let's hope that your mum is well recovered and that you can avoid such scares in 2015,

Kind regards,

Jock.

[nickwood]

Hi Neil

 

I've just discovered your thread. Perhaps I've not seen it before because it is in Railways of Wales rather than the layouts section. I've just spent a rather enjoyable time this morning with a mug of tea, scanning through from the start.

 

I'm not getting much modelling done though, so am a little surprised that anyone is still interested, so thank you very much for contributing.
 

 

Perhaps everyone is interested because the planning of a layout is critical to its success, especially to one based as closely as possible to a prototype. Compromises always have to be made along the way but the research and plannning that you have done has been a fascinating read and a blueprint that many would do well to follow.

 

Well done so far and I've no doubt that once the modelling gets underway it will prove to be every bit as meticulous as the preparation has been.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Nick