Dapol "O" gauge Terrier.

[kirtleypete]

I've had an e-mail from Dapol saying the Hornby article was written without their knowledge and they do not recommend removing the suppression board....part of me thinks they've got to say that, part of me wonders if the article is suggesting something that damages the loco. Either way I've written off a sound decoder. 

 

I should get a fuller answer from them tomorrow - I'll post it here when it arrives. In the meantime, I would leave everything well alone!

Peter

[kirtleypete]

I've heard from Dapol; they say some engines had faulty components which cause the problems I've had, but the suppression board should certainly not be removed. They have offered to repair my engine without charge, which after all I've done to it I think it very fair. I'm going to pass it on to them at the NEC,

 

Peter

[No Decorum]

Full marks to Dapol. Glad you're getting the problem sorted out. It sounded horrendous.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Has anyone tried removing the small supression circuit board as detailed in the article in Hornby magazine? I've taken it out of my two Terriers and as instructed soldered the grey and orange wires from the motor directly to the circuit board. The result....my Terrier without sounds is dead, and the one with sound has just set fire to the decoder!

 

Can anyone help?

 

Peter

I read that article Pete and I have held off such modifications, Im so sorry to hear of your problems.

 

I've had an e-mail from Dapol saying the Hornby article was written without their knowledge and they do not recommend removing the suppression board....part of me thinks they've got to say that, part of me wonders if the article is suggesting something that damages the loco. Either way I've written off a sound decoder. 

 

I should get a fuller answer from them tomorrow - I'll post it here when it arrives. In the meantime, I would leave everything well alone!

 

Peter

Bad news Peter, I am again sorry to hear that....awful news....does Hornby Mag know of the issue relative to their advice?

 

I've heard from Dapol; they say some engines had faulty components which cause the problems I've had, but the suppression board should certainly not be removed. They have offered to repair my engine without charge, which after all I've done to it I think it very fair. I'm going to pass it on to them at the NEC,

 

Peter

Do Dapol detail what the faulty components are? If they do any chance of Posting here so that we can all see and thus check our models.

 

Kind of them to offer to repair the loco under their no quibble warranty, but which came first the chicken or the egg? Did the decoder damage the loco, did removing the suppression board damage the loco, or the decoder - can we get to the bottom of this issue?

 

It would be interesting to find out what Hornby mag have to say if theyve given duff advice?

 

Kind of you to Post here Peter and save others the heartache.

 

I hope that it all comes good for you - how will you get the decoder repaired/replaced, will that be at your own cost?

 

Kindest regards,

 

CME

[kirtleypete]

I've made Hornby magazine aware of everything that has happened, directly to the chap that wrote the article...it's between him and Dapol now, I don't want to get involved. Both my engines are faulty so I'm going to return them both at the NEC...if I have to pay for the second one so be it. Frankly I just want two engines that work!

Peter

Edited November 17, 2015 by kirtleypete

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I've made Hornby magazine aware of everything that has happened, directly to the chap that wrote the article...it's between him and Dapol now, I don't want to get involved. Both my engines are faulty so I'm going to return them both at the NEC...if I have to pay for the second one so be it. Frankly I just want two engines that work!

 

Peter

Hi Peter,

 

I take it that you wanted others to know, so that we can all avoid the problem/get it resolved? It is good to hear that you notified Hornby mag, perhaps you should be involved as it has now cost you in terms of consequential and material loss, perhaps a good will gesture towards you from one or another of the subject matter experts involved would be a nice thing for them to sort out for you?

 

May I ask, did you test the locos on DC before fitting a decoder?

 

I really dont get Dapol, I know that in manufacturing there is an acceptable failure rate, but the problems seem way too high over the delivery of these models, it seems never ending, lets hope for everyone's sake its just a small number.

 

I still have doubts about QC in China and pacific rim countries.

 

I suppose that I had better try and test-run my loco - I had been waiting to run it on the garden line, but the weather is too bad and has been for days - so I will run it up and down a test track.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[kirtleypete]

I'd run the non sound fitted loco on DC and it was fine. The sound fitted DCC loco ran in fits and starts, and according to Dapol it's a problem with the electronics that they know about so I'm far from alone. It suggests that the engines aren't all test run before being packed and sent out. 

 

It's not a good situation, an RTR loco should work perfectly straight from the box. 

 

Peter

[Dunsignalling]

Having received my (non-DCC) K&ESR Terrier yesterday, I have to say that it is a cracking little model.

 

Apologies if this has already been raised/answered over the preceding 29 pages, but does anyone know where to go for a set of brass 'Bodiam' nameplates.

 

I've checked the website of my most-used supplier for 4mm (247 Developments) without success.

 

John

[MarcD]

Probably the best place to try is Guildplates they don't have a web page but you can email them. There is a link on the gauge O guild traders page.

 

Marc

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I'd run the non sound fitted loco on DC and it was fine. The sound fitted DCC loco ran in fits and starts, and according to Dapol it's a problem with the electronics that they know about so I'm far from alone. It suggests that the engines aren't all test run before being packed and sent out. 

 

It's not a good situation, an RTR loco should work perfectly straight from the box. 

 

Peter

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for the clarification. 

 

I agree any product should work first time and work reliably for a reasonable amount of time/time period.

 

A Quality Control issue or design fault - causing the defect?

 

I have just checked Dapol's Home page, News and Technical pages too and couldnt find anything relating to the problem - I hope that they declare this matter in full (one wonders when or if Dapol will come clean?), rather than just telling punters that they are aware of the situation, Im aware of lots of things but it doesnt mean Im doing owt about it. Makes one wonder at what point Dapol became aware of the situation/fault?

 

I hope to test mine on DC later today - I wasnt going to add a decoder just yet, I wonder how many more will be in the same boat?

 

Thanks for Posting, its disappointing but helpful to know these things - I hope it all gets resolved to your satisfaction.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

 

PS Re the faulty loco(s). Your DC loco is that the one which you were then adding DCC sound too (and the decoder went up in smoke) or did the one that ran in 'fits and starts' come DCC sound fitted from Dapol/Retailer? Sorry to be obtuse I am not fulling understanding which loco is which. From the way that I read you there is a dual aspect problem with each loco??

Edited November 18, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi All,

 

I hope that this may help, for clarification, if anyone else has a problem and/or for those who dont have access to other social networks.

 

This was Posted on myspacefacebook on Friday 13th November 2015 in reply to the piece - herewith below? (I hope that there are no issues with Posting this here- couldnt get my head around copyright but as myspacefacebook aint perfect in that regard)...? ;-

 

"Just a reminder that our authorised service and repair centre is DCC Supplies Ltd. If you experience a problem with your locomotive then your dealer should be the first point of contact. But if you require a repair, or a replacement is not available and a refund would be disappointing, then our No Quibble manufacturer’s warranty is there for you, subject to some simple rules. Dapol cover electrical, mechanical failures and other manufacturing defects for the 1st year after purchase. The model must have been purchased from new (no auction sites or second hand purchases) A proof of purchase is required and accidental damage is not covered. DCC Supplies will provide a free post address on request. If you wish to extend your warranty the a further year is available after a chargeable service.DCC Supplies also offer chargeable repairs for non-warranty problems on all makes of model as well as DCC installations, training and model/accessory sales including permanent DCC demonstration layouts in the 3 major scales. If you would like to see the Dapol product range then DCC Supplies also have our range on display for sale in their Worcester shop. When you visit, you may even see one of Dapol's prototype pre-release models undergoing testing! 

They also carry a good range of Dapol spares (subject to availability) so please contact them with your spare parts requests. If you want to know more about DCC, servicing or wiring they run regular 1 day training classes at reasonable prices. DCC Supplies can be contacted on 0190 621999 www.dccsupplies.com";-

 

"I would not buy another Dapol too many problems ,very poor back up help"

 

Dapol Ltd "Hi Gary, I am sorry you feel like you have not been supported by Dapol. I do remember writing to you but received no reply. If I can help with any issue then I will try as I remember you were a good supporter of Dapol products. My email is joel@Dapol.co.uk"

 

 

The former is helpful and straight forward. The bit about no auction sites, seems ropey as many legitimate shops have a presence on the likes of Ebay et al and receipts are provided. I think that Dapol's assumption there could be a mild statutory infringement (IMHO I think that they have worded it incorrectly/poorly). I hope that helps, those not on Facebook.

 

The latter, caveat emptor! One of my trade friends, although a fan of 'Dapol MK2', has had numerous problems with obtaining spare parts with Dapol referring him to DCC Supplies and vice versa in one giant loop of madness, with his customers champing at the bit. Also 'Gary' seems to have fallen foul of the comms issues that Mike has encountered?

 

Also I wonder if DCC supplies designed the offending electronic DCC/interface PCB?

 

Must dash, hope that helps a bit (beware of communications issues) - hope that we can all get it sorted simply and amicably as where/when required.

 

ATVB

 

CME

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[kirtleypete]

Just to make it clear CME...I have two engines.

 

The first was without sound and without a decoder and ran fine on DC. The problem came when I tried to plug in a Zimo sound dedcoder bought from Digitrains, having removed the suppression board as advised by Hornby magazine. That was probably the root of the problem though I can't see why it would be, without it the loco was simply wired into the decoder in the normal way, but the decoder got red hot and the loco remained dead. 

 

The second was bought with DCC sound fitted; it ran in jerks, running for a few inches, stopping, running again and so on. It was getting power as the sound stayed on. It did the same on the layout and the rolling road. This is the problem Dapol say they knew about and which is caused by a faulty component. This is the one the set fire to it's decoder, the one that came already fitted. 

 

I'm returning both loco's to Andy at DCC Supplies for repair when I see him at the NEC....he'll be the one with a bag on his head hiding in the corner!

 

 

On a slightly different topic, I bought the decoder from Digitrains because DCC Supplies told me they couldn't sell me one with Terrier sounds on due to copyright.......as Andy is part of Dapol and DCC Supplies, that strikes me as barmy. 

Peter. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by kirtleypete

[Mike Boucher]

Hi folks,

 

I have a friend with a large basement O scale layout (its about 30' x 50', double folded dogbone configuration).  He has a 1% grade that runs about 100 feet to get one end of the dogbone above the other.  The other day, I brought my terrier over to see how it peformed.  It was able to pull 5 Slaters P.O. open wagons and a Stanier brake van up the hill.  When I added 3 more wagons, it couldn't make it, got about 10 feet with the wheels spinning before it came to a halt.  Each of the wagons is weighted to about 6 ounces, so it could pull about 3 pounds, but couldn't pull a little more than 4.

 

Not sure this matters to most of you, as I get the impression that long grades aren't very common on UK layouts.  I gotta admit I was surprised that's all it could pull as it seems pretty heavy for its size.  Has anyone tried adding additional weight to one yet?

 

Mike

[Hesperus]

I've received my Terrier today, after all the problems other folks have had I've been a little worried but it arrived intact and runs like a dream straight from the box. It cost more than all my other locos put together but it was money well spent.

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Hesperus

[BG John]

Having received my (non-DCC) K&ESR Terrier yesterday, I have to say that it is a cracking little model.

 

Apologies if this has already been raised/answered over the preceding 29 pages, but does anyone know where to go for a set of brass 'Bodiam' nameplates.

 

I've checked the website of my most-used supplier for 4mm (247 Developments) without success.

 

John

When I get round to it, I might start a new topic for the K&ESR Terriers. There are various livery variations, as well as a few errors with parts of the model, and I'm having trouble getting my head round all of them. Getting together information on sources of nameplates, as well as when the name was painted and when it was on a plate, would be useful.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I've received my Terrier today, after all the problems other folks have had I've been a little worried but it arrived intact and runs like a dream straight from the box. It cost more than all my other locos put together but it was money well spent.

 

14478673905150.jpg

I have just run my Terrier on a yard or two of track on the worktop before swmbo gets home and, after cleaning the track (it had been stored in the garage) the Terrier ran like a dream on DC, although Id forgotten about the loose sandbox which tried to wedge itself between wheel and track, but I was on hand so no big drama. Now we just have to get to the facts of the hows and whys of fitting a DCC decoder!

 

Just to make it clear CME...I have two engines.

 

The first was without sound and without a decoder and ran fine on DC. The problem came when I tried to plug in a Zimo sound dedcoder bought from Digitrains, having removed the suppression board as advised by Hornby magazine. That was probably the root of the problem though I can't see why it would be, without it the loco was simply wired into the decoder in the normal way, but the decoder got red hot and the loco remained dead. 

 

The second was bought with DCC sound fitted; it ran in jerks, running for a few inches, stopping, running again and so on. It was getting power as the sound stayed on. It did the same on the layout and the rolling road. This is the problem Dapol say they knew about and which is caused by a faulty component. This is the one the set fire to it's decoder, the one that came already fitted. 

 

I'm returning both loco's to Andy at DCC Supplies for repair when I see him at the NEC....he'll be the one with a bag on his head hiding in the corner!

 

 

On a slightly different topic, I bought the decoder from Digitrains because DCC Supplies told me they couldn't sell me one with Terrier sounds on due to copyright.......as Andy is part of Dapol and DCC Supplies, that strikes me as barmy. 

 

Peter. 

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for the clarification its appreciated.

 

Sounds like madness all round! Also sounds like a problem with the loco's wiring/electronics?

 

Not sure why your decoder got hot on the original DC model. If we were building a kit loco, then the decoder would have on-board suppression and would be wired straight to the motor and pick-ups etc, perhaps there is also a problem with the decoder socket?

 

Glad to hear that you are dropping it off - as sending a model, after getting it back in the original packaging, by carrier, back doesnt sound like fun/appeal.

 

I hope that the whys and wherefores will soon become apparent as you wont be the only one wanting to fit a decoder and neither will I.

 

ATVB

 

CME.

Edited November 18, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[kirtleypete]

I'll let everyone know what happens following the NEC. Personally, I'm looking forward to a quiet life again with no hassle! 

 

Peter

[hartleymartin]

Hi folks,

 

I have a friend with a large basement O scale layout (its about 30' x 50', double folded dogbone configuration).  He has a 1% grade that runs about 100 feet to get one end of the dogbone above the other.  The other day, I brought my terrier over to see how it peformed.  It was able to pull 5 Slaters P.O. open wagons and a Stanier brake van up the hill.  When I added 3 more wagons, it couldn't make it, got about 10 feet with the wheels spinning before it came to a halt.  Each of the wagons is weighted to about 6 ounces, so it could pull about 3 pounds, but couldn't pull a little more than 4.

 

Not sure this matters to most of you, as I get the impression that long grades aren't very common on UK layouts.  I gotta admit I was surprised that's all it could pull as it seems pretty heavy for its size.  Has anyone tried adding additional weight to one yet?

 

Mike

 

Tractive Effort: A1 - 7,650 ; A1x - 10,695

Based on the tractive effort and weight of an A1 and A1x Terrier, I estimate that on a 1 in100 gradient the Terriers would haul only about 150-200 tonnes at the very greatest. Fully loaded PO wagons could weigh anything from 12 to 22 tonnes, so 5 or 6 fully loaded wagons and brake van would be a prototypical load on a grade.

[Overner]

Having received my (non-DCC) K&ESR Terrier yesterday, I have to say that it is a cracking little model.

 

Apologies if this has already been raised/answered over the preceding 29 pages, but does anyone know where to go for a set of brass 'Bodiam' nameplates.

 

I've checked the website of my most-used supplier for 4mm (247 Developments) without success.

 

John

 

Try Narrow Planet for the nameplates. Their website has a large number of plate styles and allows you to specify your own lettering and size. They charge by the size (height) of the plates, not the length. Costs are very reasonable and the quality is excellent.

[Richard Lee]

Tractive Effort: A1 - 7,650 ; A1x - 10,695

Based on the tractive effort and weight of an A1 and A1x Terrier, I estimate that on a 1 in100 gradient the Terriers would haul only about 150-200 tonnes at the very greatest. Fully loaded PO wagons could weigh anything from 12 to 22 tonnes, so 5 or 6 fully loaded wagons and brake van would be a prototypical load on a grade.

In 'Branch Line to Hayling' by Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith (ISBN 0906520126) there is a picture dated 25th May 1932 of Terrier B655 pulling a mixed train with a couple of coaches that might be LSWR 47' ones, what looks like 8 open wagons and a goods brake van towards Hayling Island.  I presume that the wagons would have been filled going towards Hayling Island.  It looks to me as if the wagons may have been smaller than the 8-plank wagons that were the prototypes for the Oxford Rail ones.

 

There is a route diagram earlier on in the book.  The steepest gradient upwards in the Havant to Hayling Island direction was 1:175.  In the other direction there is a 1:89 stretch, rising on the way towards Havant.  There are a couple of pictures of a similar sized mixed train going towards Havant on 14th October 1963.  Presumably, the open wagons were empty on the journey back to Havant.

[Les1952]

Coming back to the sound copyright-

 

I suspect the person who made the recordings of the original locomotive has made them available to certain producers of sound files only.

 

It isn't all that unusual for a loco to be available with files from one source but not another.

 

Les

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I'll let everyone know what happens following the NEC. Personally, I'm looking forward to a quiet life again with no hassle! 

 

Peter

Thanks Peter, I wish you well, I hope that they do the right thing by you.

 

I wish that's all I had to be concerned about for a quiet life - what's your secret?  

 

Tractive Effort: A1 - 7,650 ; A1x - 10,695

Based on the tractive effort and weight of an A1 and A1x Terrier, I estimate that on a 1 in100 gradient the Terriers would haul only about 150-200 tonnes at the very greatest. Fully loaded PO wagons could weigh anything from 12 to 22 tonnes, so 5 or 6 fully loaded wagons and brake van would be a prototypical load on a grade.

 

 

In 'Branch Line to Hayling' by Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith (ISBN 0906520126) there is a picture dated 25th May 1932 of Terrier B655 pulling a mixed train with a couple of coaches that might be LSWR 47' ones, what looks like 8 open wagons and a goods brake van towards Hayling Island.  I presume that the wagons would have been filled going towards Hayling Island.  It looks to me as if the wagons may have been smaller than the 8-plank wagons that were the prototypes for the Oxford Rail ones.

 

There is a route diagram earlier on in the book.  The steepest gradient upwards in the Havant to Hayling Island direction was 1:175.  In the other direction there is a 1:89 stretch, rising on the way towards Havant.  There are a couple of pictures of a similar sized mixed train going towards Havant on 14th October 1963.  Presumably, the open wagons were empty on the journey back to Havant.

I read that the Terriers, when in mainline service, would regularly and rapidly pull 100 Ton (that's in proper money  ) passenger trains. Relatively speaking the Dapol Terrier seems to be well weighted for the size of loco (I havent done any complex equations though    ).

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited November 19, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[The Bigbee Line]

As an aside, I have ordered spare parts for long term maintenance.... Wheel Bearings, Conrod bolts and Plastic Gears, Also ordered some A1X brakework to convert from Wooden Blocks.

oHas anyone taken the wheels out and separated the plastic side frames. If not an enormous work up I might take mine apart to re-drill the holes for the wooden to metal brake blocks conversion. If anyone wants a set of plastic blocked brakework let me know..

[kirtleypete]

Juas as an addition to the thought about how much they would pull, in LBSC days they were recorded at over 60 mph on occasion, with no ill effects....that's the equivilent of an A4 doing 105 mph! It must have been lively on the footplate. 'Brighton' cantered along the Ouest Railway main line from Dieppe to Paris when it was displayed there, again with no ill effects. They weren't built to potter around on branch lines, then ran an intensive main line suburban service in the 1880's until the D1's came along. 

 

Wonderful engines!

Pete

[IWCR]

Re:  Haulage  Capacity

 

The  1932  SR  working  timetable  for  the  IOW  covers  permitted  loads.

These  vary  according  to  route,

For  example,  Sandown  to  Merstone   100  tons  Passenger  for  a  14"  terrier  and  80  tons  for  a  13"  loco

20  or  15  loaded  wagons  (note:  loaded  mineral  wagon  counts  as  1 1/2  wagon).

 

The  maximum  load  for  a  14"  terrier  from  Medina  Wharf to  Newport  was  40  wagons  or  25  mineral.

More  than  enough  for  the  average  model  railway.

 

W8  at  Havenstreet  has  worked  to  time with  a  5  coach  train  (125  tons)  but  the  coal  and  water  consumption  was  high  and  the  loco  clearly  overloaded.   These  days  working  is  limited  to  3  coaches  to  avoid  hammering  what  is  after  all  a  very  old  locomotive.  For  their  size  they  are  powerful  locomotives,  the  constraint  is  coal  and  water  capacity.

 

Pete