Simon Says

[railroadbill]

This week Mr. Kohler reminisces about a project that I imagine was a favourite of his and one I think he can feel duly proud of - Hornby Live Steam.

 

See "Live Steam Rising".

 

At the beginning Simon makes an observation about reactions to his prior blog: "Be Careful What You Wish For".  I liked the clarification he made in his position regarding the MREmag and RMweb 00 Wishlist Poll.

The Hornby live steam project was very interesting and a real achievement to be able to produce it commercially. Seen a layout a couple of times (at Ally Pally I think) displayed by a group who have collected and who promote the history and operation of  these models. As Simon says, it may well have promoted a lot of attention in model railways generally among people who would not otherwise have been interested. Guess you could only go so far with it, needing a continuous run to get the best effect, sort of gauge 1 steam scaled down.

[doublecee]

great post.

 

I think Live Steam was the one thing that cemented my desire to run OO in the garden. There is just something about the way that they run that is so organic compared to an Electric motor. Each loco (I have six) has there own running characteristic (almost a personality) and they really do wonders for the soul. I find running Live Steam in the garden a very relaxing affair, that really goes some way to washing away the weeks stress and strain caused by the day job.

 

Sadly, with Live Steam's demise, the on-line auction prices have gone insane. I personally would love to see the return of this flagship product. I think it was their most impressive feat, from a technological viewpoint, and its marketing was pitch perfect. 

 

The OO live Steam user group do a lot to keep the faith, and who knows.... Im sure there are lessons learnt from its original incarnation that could seriously benefit a 2nd phase. I hope so, because for all of DCC's cleverness, interactivity, sound, voice control, app-ability, flexibility and now affordability, nothing comes closer to the real experience than getting a Hornby Live Steam loco fired up and under control (which instil is a skill).

 

It may not be for everyone, and even I was sceptical at first, but as soon as my first Mallard came into steam and gently shunted away I was hooked. I wanted more. I wanted to understand the mechanics of it all. And for those eBay auctions that I won, where the loco would arrive as a non runner, I knew full well that Hornby's Live Steam expert (John - AKA The Wizard of Westwood) could bring back a dead steamer to full life.

 

I really enjoyed the article. It would be great if that launch video could be made available in a future post from SK... It clearly is a part of his tenure that he is most proud of, and with many of us still beating the LS drum, I hope its just a matter of time before Hornby feel confident enough to give it a 2nd go. 

 

 

and when it doesn't go as planned...

 

 

Craig

[Ozexpatriate]

I liked the clarification he made in his position regarding the MREmag and RMweb 00 Wishlist Poll.

To extend my earlier comments about Mr. Kohler's observations:

 

My main concern is that with all the newly tooled items heading are way, coupled with those that are being promised and then add in the general new releases of existing items, there surely must be a limit. The market for models is not finite, neither are there enough enthusiasts to support such a constant and ever increasing influx of new products.

I have to say that asking "When will it* end?" and "Will it end in tears?" are fair questions to ask.

 

* "It" being the stream of new announcements we have seen this year.

[doublecee]

Rob.

 

I like your photos. But the conversation was quite literally picking up steam and was getting quite interesting and your edited photos just killed it.

 

Have you considered setting up a blog and then linking to it in your signature? It's dead easy to manage and I think it gives you the perfect, dedicated outlet for your talents, having not been given a proper slot here.

 

Your image editing is quite interesting and you shouldn't be discouraged, as it's clearly integral to your enjoyment of the hobby. But I think finding a correct home for them will really free up the way you express yourself artistically as well as the manner in which you publish.

 

Google run a great package under its blogspot.com domain. You'll find a link to mine in my signature. I think you'd really enjoy it.

 

So, live steam. The auction prices have gone through the roof. Can anyone tell me what the rrp was for the loco's. Current auction prices are 600-700 gbp. I drew the line at 500. However, my last purchase was SEAGULL. mint in box. Never steamed. £150 from cash converters. I'm guessing they didn't fully realise what they had their hands on. A total steal.

 

I'd be keen to know what the rrp was and then find out what people would be prepared to pay should LS return.

 

I'm sure there will be calls for some kind of dcc integration. Forget it. That's a bad idea. If it ain't broke.....

 

The one thing I would change though would be the two controllers. I've always questioned if they needed to be so substantial.

[G-BOAF]

I think Hornby are being quite prudent with their line-up of new and recent models, the problems are in quality control and volume of reliable supply, and over-optimistic arrival dates.

 

I don't we have much to complain about in arrivals of new models in 2014 apart from QC and usually lateness, one notable exception being the P2?

 

Simon was perhaps alluding to the viability of the market in a few years, when the s/h market might be awash with models of equivalent quality to what is likely in the near future. Given increases in skilled labour costs, I expect that new models will be expensive, and thus the excitement factor will be harder to generate, and we are already expecting a newly tooled King class to be over £150.

 

I think the commercial viability of new RTR 00 steam-era models will be marginal, but that's just my guess. I'm certainly not complaining about what I can buy now, new or used. I have a 1960 Duke on a plane right now, and doubt that I would be able to resist a D16 , nor a new King... but then I might be unusual. I have a lot of Heljan Garratts and don't really want to sell any of them either.

 

Just my thoughts. oh, I think SK's influence, rightly or wrongly, is writ large over the Merchant Navy which I am photographing today.

 

un-retouched, with an edited version below, still pretty much what Hornby could do even in 2001, but not much before that...

 

I would like to stress that pre-2010 was not a golden age, a lot of Hornby production was quite full of errors... always. I have just photographed the other side of this model of the MN and the running plate is terribly warped.

 

Img_0055a_1ab_r1200.jpg

35021_Bulleid_MN_2abcd_r1200.jpg

 

here is the other side, as bought (I don't remember a fuss in 2004 when these were made) and fixed with editing, not sure if it would be easy to do by dismantling and reassembling.

 

Img_0100ab_r1200.jpg

Img_0100abc_r1200.jpg

 

Will remove if edited images judged irrelevant. My point is that put simply, Hornby's quality control has always been mostly a matter of luck, especially purchasing by web, but even shops are understandably not over-happy to remove an engine and then have a potential customer find fault with it and walk away.

 

Rob

I made a fuss, just not online (as the internet wasn't as well developed in those days!). Ellerman Lines (R2294) suffers this problem. I it is my suspicion that the top half of the boiler is a tight fit, and that some flash or other molding imperfection is causing the insert to push the smokebox forward, thus leading to the running plate distorting. Have posted in the appropriate thread on here but no one has responded.... I'd like to dismantle the boiler and reassemble, but don't know how much force will be required to part it without wrecking the paint finish (ignoring impact on handrails etc which I accept might be damaged)

[robmcg]

Rob.

 

I like your photos. But the conversation was quite literally picking up steam and was getting quite interesting and your edited photos just killed it.

 

Have you considered setting up a blog and then linking to it in your signature? It's dead easy to manage and I think it gives you the perfect, dedicated outlet for your talents, having not been given a proper slot here.

 

Your image editing is quite interesting and you shouldn't be discouraged, as it's clearly integral to your enjoyment of the hobby. But I think finding a correct home for them will really free up the way you express yourself artistically as well as the manner in which you publish.

 

Google run a great package under its blogspot.com domain. You'll find a link to mine in my signature. I think you'd really enjoy it.

 

So, live steam. The auction prices have gone through the roof. Can anyone tell me what the rrp was for the loco's. Current auction prices are 600-700 gbp. I drew the line at 500. However, my last purchase was SEAGULL. mint in box. Never steamed. £150 from cash converters. I'm guessing they didn't fully realise what they had their hands on. A total steal.

 

I'd be keen to know what the rrp was and then find out what people would be prepared to pay should LS return.

 

I'm sure there will be calls for some kind of dcc integration. Forget it. That's a bad idea. If it ain't broke.....

 

The one thing I would change though would be the two controllers. I've always questioned if they needed to be so substantial.

 

Fair point, I didn't mean to 'kill' conversation. I don't see how associating the super detail Merchant Navy with SK is sufficient to stop people discussing live steam, both subjects are down to SK's energy in great degree.

 

Have removed my post.  I will not be setting up a blog in the short term, I've had my own website for a time, but mostly I prefer to show the pics where I think they are relevant and might be appreciated. I had thought the MN pics were relevant to Simon's blog and his speculation about the future of the market. The pics are a celebration of Hornby modelling, just like the live steam models.

 

Rob

[Andy Y]

The issue was about relevance at this point in the topic Rob; Simon's most recent blog centred around 'live steam'. You had agreed a couple of weeks ago to keep any images to your own topics or immediately relevant areas.

[robmcg]

The issue was about relevance at this point in the topic Rob; Simon's most recent blog centred around 'live steam'. You had agreed a couple of weeks ago to keep any images to your own topics or immediately relevant areas.

 

Most of the recent discussion in this thread has been about the previous blog entry, the viability of the industry and super detail models. My images were entirely relevant.

 

Still, you are in charge.

 

Rob

[Andy Y]

 

I've made the position clear (several times) based upon the balance of reactions I receive. Every time you decide to post irrelevant or manipulated images I have several reports to deal with and I don't wish to spend a late Sunday evening dealing with something you've chosen to disregard so I'll pre-vet all posts before they go public. That will mean an inevitable delay given your location I'm afraid.

[Willie Whizz]

Rob, I would accept that what you produce amounts to highly effective 'works of art', and are very commendable in that context.

 

But I too find them somewhat distracting when they are interposed in some of the threads ... because you are quite often illustrating what isn't there, in terms of the model under critical discussion, which dilutes the relevance of the thread; and that I suspect is starting to wind some people up a little.  I'm quite sure that isn't your intention - but it seems to be the practical effect, sometimes.

 

I don't want to discourage you, and I'm not sure there's a simple answer; maybe you just need to be a bit more... selective ... in when and where you post such pictures, to be sure they're actually adding value to the specific points under debate.

[robmcg]

Rob.

 

I like your photos. But the conversation was quite literally picking up steam and was getting quite interesting and your edited photos just killed it.

 

...

 

So, live steam. The auction prices have gone through the roof. Can anyone tell me what the rrp was for the loco's. Current auction prices are 600-700 gbp. I drew the line at 500. However, my last purchase was SEAGULL. mint in box. Never steamed. £150 from cash converters. I'm guessing they didn't fully realise what they had their hands on. A total steal.

 

I'd be keen to know what the rrp was and then find out what people would be prepared to pay should LS return.

 

I'm sure there will be calls for some kind of dcc integration. Forget it. That's a bad idea. If it ain't broke.....

 

The one thing I would change though would be the two controllers. I've always questioned if they needed to be so substantial.

 

 

I would be interested in that, too, as I found live steam intriguing, especially for out doors.  Rather brave in 00 though, in my opinion. The beauty of the preparation and satisfaction of running trains I fully 'get', however.

 

Rob

[doublecee]

Robmg, you should certainly add a link to your website in your signature, because as I previously stated, I like the pictures, partly because thye do feel very reminiscent of the old Catalogue covers, and they certainly should be aired (in the correct context). And there is always a special place for such output here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/170-photography/  a part of the forum that i visit on a regular basis. It would also give you the option for further detail the steps you take in PS to achieve the results. That would be quite interesting to anyone that wants to dabble in PS himself. Dont be discouraged. Its the perfect home for your work.... which is admirable and effective. 

[Hilux5972]

Yes rob please do let us know your website address. I love seeing your images

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

 

 

Sadly, with Live Steam's demise, the on-line auction prices have gone insane. I personally would love to see the return of this flagship product. I think it was their most impressive feat, from a technological viewpoint, and its marketing was pitch perfect. 

 

 

Funny that.

When they were available dealers could hardly give them away. 

It must have accounted for a large part of the hole in Hornby's expected profits and seriously affected their viability, a position that they have not yet recovered from.

A total waste of resources as I see it.

As opposed to current trends such as the Duke and the P2 where they seem to have judged the market to perfection.

Trying to sell them in Germany was a move that I found very strange. Not one of their best marketing stunts. A look at mainland companies experience in the UK market should have set alarm bells ringing and that was only using conventional electric power.

I would hardly call it a flagship product. More like a canoe up a creek.

Gone and good riddance.

Now if a small manufacturer had introduced it my comments would be very different.

Bernard

[doublecee]

I disagree. 

 

It was a real technical achievement that should be applauded. However, it may have been the right product at the wrong time. The economic crisis was starting to gather momentum, and as such, the range didnt stand a chance. But to say it was a canoe up a creek is a bit harsh. 

 

It sold considerably well under difficult circumstances. And your comment about it being sold by a smaller company really demonstrates that the issue wasnt really with the product, and probably more to do with the fact that it was Hornby. If I read that wrong, please correct me with some clarification.

 

Of course, you cant please all of the people all of the time, and clearly you were not an advocate. But it was a great product, and a real feat to get all of that engineering into the limited space of an OO chassis. SK and his team rightly deserve to be proud of seeing the potential, and for continuing to hold out hope that it may one day be back....

 

The only thing I would probably want from a new range would be to have better detailing on the heat resistant body... As good as they were, detail was lacking. That's not a criticism, just an observation.

[jwealleans]

 

if a small manufacturer had introduced it

A small manufacturer did - I recall seeing them in the shed at Bressingham a number of years ago, well before Hornby announced it.  They were mainly old Dublo locos - I assumed because the heat might melt plastic ones.  I'd assumed, without thinking about it, that that was where someone at Hornby got the idea.

 

Can't recall the name or whether Hornby's venture put the out of business/was a joint venture.  It would be interesting to know if they are still trading.  ISTR they had a wider choice of locos than Hornby - a Jubilee comes to mind.

[doublecee]

I would be interested in that, too, as I found live steam intriguing, especially for out doors.  Rather brave in 00 though, in my opinion. The beauty of the preparation and satisfaction of running trains I fully 'get', however.

 

Rob

 

I did a run last year in the dead of winter, I think it was late Jan, early feb, and there was a super cold snap in the air. The amount of steam that was visible as she chuffed around the garden, accompanied by the smell of the oil and steam was amazing. Sadly, it was far too cold to film anything but this winter I will be better prepared...

 

Its just a shame you cant capture the smell on video... its captivating

[railroadbill]

Hornby have come up with various innovative model railway products over the years.  Magnetesion, syncro smoke, "steam sound", TT gauge, Zero 1, ckd locos, the live steam Rocket (which Simon mentions).  Not forgetting the Giraffe car, of course.  But they've always made a complete range of model railway equipment so you could build a complete layout only using Hornby products.  The train set concept of yore, you could say.  Now they also make very highly detailed models for serious modellers or collectors (or both!) as well. So both stuff to "play with"  or other stuff to use seriously/admire.

 

Live steam is a brilliantly engineered niche product (and when it came out a surprising number of people I knew discussed it who wouldn't otherwise have been interested in model railways, so there could have been  good publicity for Hornby as well.)  But it's not really going to operate with the average layout, I guess.

 

I remember seeing a stand at an exhibition years ago where some 00 live steam locos were being promoted and demonstrated on a small loop. They had cast brass bodies and an oscillating cylinder (or cylinders) driving the wheels through gears. Think the boilers were fueled by meths. Never seen them again so perhaps too complicated to sell at a reasonable price. More the thing you might make yourself if you are an experienced model engineer.

 

As a final thought, what is the smallest live steam loco that has been sucessfully made? N? Z?  Must be a physical limit I guess.

 

 

ed to correct typos.

[robmcg]

The issue was about relevance at this point in the topic Rob; Simon's most recent blog centred around 'live steam'. You had agreed a couple of weeks ago to keep any images to your own topics or immediately relevant areas.

 

I would like to apologise to both you and doublecee for damaging the flow of this thread, and for posting edited pictures where I said I wouldn't.

 

It has never been my intention to offend, I will try to control my lack of care and consideration.

 

Rob

[Grovenor]

 

As a final thought, what is the smallest live steam loco that has been sucessfully made? N? Z?  Must be a physical limit I guess.

A A Sherwood in the 1970s built some live steamers in 1:240 scale, a bit smaller than Z. Articles in the "Model Railways" magazine for November 1973 and September 1974. He also built electrically driven models in 1:240 and in 1:480, the latter being the main subject of the September 1974 article.

Keith

[railroadbill]

A A Sherwood in the 1970s built some live steamers in 1:240 scale, a bit smaller than Z. Articles in the "Model Railways" magazine for November 1973 and September 1974. He also built electrically driven models in 1:240 and in 1:480, the latter being the main subject of the September 1974 article.

Keith

Wow, thanks Keith! With your info   I've  actually been able to find both those magazines among old  Model Railways I've still got ! I had a feeling that I'd read about this somewhere a long time ago.

 

The Pennsylvania K5 and D & H 4-8-0 I'm now looking at pics of, were about 4 1/4 inches long, and that's with tenders nearly as long as the loco. 8 coupled wheelbase less than 1". Butane tank in tender with tender mounted burner sticking into firebox. Best run 530'

 

An electrically driven N2 tank he made  in 1:480 scale would fit in a matchbox with room to spare.

 

Incredible.  

 

AA Sherwood had exhibited a layout made in 1:240 scale that was in Model Railway News in June 1968, according to  the MR article, but I don't have any of  that magazine.

 

cheers, Bill

[railroadbill]

As a final thought on Hornby steam models, the Simon says blog mentions the 3 1/2 gauge Rocket and the 00 live steam locos. However, some 0 gauge course scale locos were revived under the Bassett Lowke label some years ago, and one of these was a live steam mogul.  Not sure but I think the Bassett Lowke name was with Corgi then, and might well have been after the Hornby takeover?  So could this have been a third Hornby group  live steam loco?

[Ozexpatriate]

Mr. Kohler's latest musing, this time on 'modelling', RTR and the courage to try something more than 'plonking', now versus the 'good old days', has been posted: Railway modelling but perhaps not as we knew it!

 

Simon of course is too polite to say 'plonking'. Andy Y gets a mention.

[robmcg]

As a final thought on Hornby steam models, the Simon says blog mentions the 3 1/2 gauge Rocket and the 00 live steam locos. However, some 0 gauge course scale locos were revived under the Bassett Lowke label some years ago, and one of these was a live steam mogul.  Not sure but I think the Bassett Lowke name was with Corgi then, and might well have been after the Hornby takeover?  So could this have been a third Hornby group  live steam loco?

Here is the Bassett Lowke model...

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191396197053?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[railroadbill]

Here is the Bassett Lowke model...

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191396197053?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

That's the one I was thinking about, Rob.  Think it first came out post war (actual Bassett Lowke) then was revived along with the name more recently but after that only electrically driven locos were made. Old family friend had some Bassett Lowke on a coarse scale layout years ago, all electric,  but I've never actually seen a steam one running. Thanks for reference.

 

Actually, looking at e-bay reminded me that I'd been outbid on a white metal kit I'd bid for - ironic in view of latest Simon Says topics!!