Simon Says

[Rugd1022]

It's no surprise that so many people are interested in the 'BR late crest' period, not just because some of them were there to see it, but because there is such a wealth of published material on it, covering just about any location or specific time frame you can think of. The BR blue period is just about catching up I think, but it wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things that we had to rely on a few scraps of information in two or three magazines which were three or four months behind even then, sometimes longer. Aside from a few pictorial books from OPC, Ian Allan and Bradford Barton, it wasn't really until Modern Railways Pictorial and Rail Enthusiast came along that we had much visual material to work from.

 

Having a foot in more than one camp keeps things interesting though - my main area of interest is in the WR of the '60s and '70s but the immediate post-war / early days of nationalisation period also fascinates me, especially after prodding my other half's late Father for his memories of the period, before it was too late. His talk of going to St.Ives on the 'Cornish Riviera' in 1949, seeing the Kings in blue livery and being a GWR / BR employee from '46 to '51 has often had me contemplating a layout set in this time frame.

[lyneux]

I took data from the MREmag 2012 wishlist poll question on 'which era do you model' and compared the era modeled with the period where respondents were in the 10-14 group - presuming that to be a age where people first get really interested in railways.

 

This is what I got:

agemodelled.jpg

 

The idea that we model what we remember (while this is absolutely true for a very significant group - BR late crest for example which is the mode of the distribution) does not hold for the everyone, or we would see a lot more BR Blue layouts.

 

Great to see some stats on this. The only problem is the lack of equal-sized categories doesn't make the figures very meaningful. For example, BR Blue Pre-TOPS is 1965-1973 (only 8 years) whilst BR Blue TOPs extended from 1973 to 1990 (17 years). I'm sure this is why there is such a dip around Pre-TOPS BR Blue.

 

Assuming that these anomalies in the data were removed I'd guess you'd see two normal distributions with the "era at age 10-14" leading the "era actually modelled" by 10-20 years. 

[Ozexpatriate]

For example, BR Blue Pre-TOPS is 1965-1973 (only 8 years) whilst BR Blue TOPs extended from 1973 to 1990 (17 years). I'm sure this is why there is such a dip around Pre-TOPS BR Blue.

It's almost certainly why the number of modellers dips there - but there isn't much I could do about that.

 

Assuming that these anomalies in the data were removed I'd guess you'd see two normal distributions with the "era at age 10-14" leading the "era actually modelled" by 10-20 years.

The age distribution is non-normal - it is closer to a Poisson distribution. Sadly for us it is modal toward the high end and then drops off quickly.

[JSpencer]

Between 10 and 14 years old, everything was blue for me, with the start of sectorisation taking place.

 

Yet my collection can be split as follows:

Pre grouping 13%

Grouping 15.5%

Early BR era 27.5%

late BR steam era 32.8%

blue era 13.6%

Sectorisation 11.3%

Privatisation 0.3%

[Jol Wilkinson]

Between 10 and 14 years old, everything was blue for me, with the start of sectorisation taking place.

 

Yet my collection can be split as follows:

Pre grouping 13%

Grouping 15.5%

Early BR era 27.5%

late BR steam era 32.8%

blue era 13.6%

Sectorisation 11.3%

Privatisation 0.3%

Is that split driven primarily by an interest in those periods or the availability of RTR products? In other words, if specific RTR products were not available would you still want to model a particular period?

[Legend]

I think you get a love of railways that transcends the various eras and even geography. I was born in 62. I can just remember steam going to Glasgow St Enoch or Central on the Clyde coast services, but for me the main period I grew up on was BR Blue. And indeed I do model BR blue,but also transition and grouping eras. When I was 13 I bought an Ian Allan book "Salute to the LMS" That really made me interested in the grouping. I then went onto read about Clyde Steamer services and was mesmerised by stories of steamer racing and competing railway services on both sides of the Clyde. And of course it seemed that every day I browsed the Triang Hornby catalogue , so around 1971 I got an LMS Princess , I knew all about The big 4 through the catalogues of the era and then through reading more in depth. I did find the catalogues of the time more inspirational compared to today's bland designs. So who knows maybe the now arriving P2 will generate interest in LNER. I suppose my basic point is that it is a little simplistic to say that people only model the era they know. In fact getting people interested opens up a whole new world!

[JSpencer]

Is that split driven primarily by an interest in those periods or the availability of RTR products? In other words, if specific RTR products were not available would you still want to model a particular period?

I have always wanted to model SECR, BR SR and tops era south eastern. The only link is that I am from the southeast and that visiting the bluebell played an influence.

 

That said 70% of my locos are not from the south east. I never saw Mallard or any A4 until the great gathering last year but have 7 models of them (more a few years ago).

 

My layout will hold at least 16 locos in the loco depot, so I have 16 locos for each region in BR steam era for early crest and 16 again for late. The exception being SR BR steam era for which I have far more.

 

My buying habits are influenced by the following:

1) big names of history - this year I ordered Caerphilly Castle as I was missing a decent model of the class plus this famous loco, plus the NRM C1

2) prototype models - this year the APT-E...

3) locos of various classes from each region to create a balanced railway (big names are fine, but they need support from medium and small locos..

 

For those 3 groups, I have no intention of building anything and will buy only if they appear in RTR and fill a gap. (Although for the second group I did build a W1, turbo motive, and have a Fell loco and GT3 on the stocks - the latter 2 will use RTR chassis)

 

4) any southern loco made in RTR

5) classes that appeared on the bluebell, here I do some kit building to fill gaps

7) SECR - everything RTR (let's face it, there is not much, 5 locos, 6 wagons and soon 3 coaches) plus some kits (there is no way a wainwright J will appear in RTR!)

 

Here kits can be used to fill gaps.

[Ozexpatriate]

New post today - "Love, hate and things to do at weekends". I haven't read it properly yet but the reference to soap made me think of several amusing observations (at least I thought them amusing) that in the interests of decorum I'll refrain from sharing.

 

Plus there were a couple of references to RMwebLive.

 

EDIT:

 

Now that I've had a moment to properly read the article I'll say that this is another interesting and sincere article.

 

As someone who has waved the company flag at trade shows, I understand all too well the relief and the nostalgia of not having to sign up for booth duty, but am happy to say that I never had to stay in a caravan - at least professionally.

 

Anyone visiting Simon in Coventry should bring a rucksack - just so he is not disappointed.

[t-b-g]

I see lots of comments on the theme of 'nostalgia modelling' also known as 'modelling what you remember'.

 

There have been lots of age surveys of enthusiasts. Back in 2008 and 2009 Andy did an age survey of RMweb. Back then the respondents here were slightly younger than what was perceived in 'the community'

 

I took data from the MREmag 2012 wishlist poll question on 'which era do you model' and compared the era modeled with the period where respondents were in the 10-14 group - presuming that to be a age where people first get really interested in railways.

 

This is what I got:

agemodelled.jpg

 

The idea that we model what we remember (while this is absolutely true for a very significant group - BR late crest for example which is the mode of the distribution) does not hold for the everyone, or we would see a lot more BR Blue layouts.

 

I think that for a large number of modellers, the idea that you model what you remember is not accurate and that this is evident in polling data. (At least 32% of modellers model what they do not remember at all. This number will actually be larger but it can't be determined from the data I used.)

 

Let's not forget that to be able to remember 1948 in sufficient detail for it to inspire a model railway you'd probably need be around 74. I know we have many such members here, and wish them health and many more years but there are plenty of younger enthusiasts too.

 

I wonder how many 44 year-olds (who were ten in 1980, are modelling the grouping or nationalization periods rather than BR blue).

 

My guess is that there are three big 'camps':

1. People who model what they remember when they were young.

 

2. People who model the contemporary railway that they can see around them (they might stick with this period as they get older, even if the real railway changes).

 

3. People who model something simply because it interests them. This might be from the past or from a foreign country.

 

Interesting post and thoughts.

 

I model pre-grouping (although I barely remember green diesels and steam) for a few reasons. One, because I like to build models of things I wish I had seen and can only really see working as models. Two, because I like making things and there is little point in spending ages making something if one of the manufacturers produces one that is probably better than the one I have built.

 

A possible third reason (which may come across as a bit self centred but is really based on my appreciation of individuality in many things) is that I prefer it if my models are not the same as the ones that everybody else has.

 

So I have quite mixed feelings about the RTR people producing lovely pre-grouping models. Part of me thinks that they are superb and part of me thinks "I don't really want lots more people modelling pre-grouping" for reason No 3!

 

Perhaps my motivation is a little bit out of the mainstream but I would be interested to hear if others have similar views.

 

Tony

[wombatofludham]

Blimey what a debate.  Love the statistical analysis.

 

For my sins I'm approaching 52 at the speed of light, and my shed layouts will be:  West Coast Steam/Diesel/Electric 1962-2006, which is clearly influenced by moving 50 yds from the Trent Valley line in 1964 when I was still more interested in Rusks and filling nappies, what I could see from my classroom window at primary school in 1968, my first trips by train in the early 70s, five years of commuting as a student between Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Walsall in 1982-7, my first Railrover trips, working at Centro in the 1990s with numerous train trips around the country, and the observed recent past era.  My other two layouts squeezed in with a bit of clever planning are LMS 1928-39 and Southern electric/steam 1939-1979.  My late grandparents struggled to remember the LMS in the 1930s and no one in my family had heard of the south coast before I first went on a boat train with my secondary school in 1974, so whilst one layout is clearly a nostalgiafest, the other two are best described as research based impressionist 3d paintings.  Plans may yet change between this autumn's insulation and electrification projects on the shed and actual laying of track but the WCML is a fixed point as is the LMS terminus.

 

So I seem to cover the whole gamut of modelling eras from post grouping to privatisation, heavens only knows what that does to the statistical analysis. Of course the exhibition mini-plank coming to RM Live is 1989 and 2006, dmu operation and is wholly influenced by experiences in the West Midlands at that time although I wouldn't really call it nostalgia as such!

[asmay2002]

Great to see some stats on this. The only problem is the lack of equal-sized categories doesn't make the figures very meaningful. For example, BR Blue Pre-TOPS is 1965-1973 (only 8 years) whilst BR Blue TOPs extended from 1973 to 1990 (17 years). I'm sure this is why there is such a dip around Pre-TOPS BR Blue.

Except that the preceeding peak for BR late crest also applies to only 11 years at best (1957-1968) and in some parts of the country much less (as few as 5 years) if you model steam.  So no I don't think the unpopularity of BR Blue pre-tops is a fluke. But As I said before when talking about the SSMRS survey this one is driven largely by what is available not what people would necessarily do given a completely free choice.

[Dunsignalling]

At the risk of repeating something which may have already been mentioned, those of us who were around when steam was still dominant observed livery changes that happened far more slowly than these days when whole fleets sometimes get new vinyl coverings within weeks of a change of franchise.

 

The BR early emblem / late crest divide is largely artificial and the parallel inception of the later coach colours that GRADUALLY replaced crimson/cream was, perhaps, more important. Rolling stock generally got repainted only when necessary, so some vehicles in pre-1948 liveries only received BR numbers until they became due for overhaul or withdrawal. Others went straight from Big Four colours to "Late BR" livery without carrying "Early BR" at all.

 

That change was far more thorough than what happened to locos and very few coaches remained in crimson/cream by 1962, especially on the Southern Region. Top-link locomotives were overhauled (and hence repainted) relatively frequently because of the mileages they accumulated but many lesser classes went for scrap well into the sixties still with the old emblem in place.

 

My chosen period is 1959-61, i.e "BR Late Crest". That means almost all my SR and BR(s) coaches are green; some BR Mk.1s and coaches from other regions remain in crimson/cream but most are maroon. About 30% of my locos carry the "Early emblem" but the Southern put a lot of older locos (notably M7s) through the works during "my period" and reference to reliably dated photographs is, as ever, essential to confirm what the railway looked like half a century ago - I certainly don't trust my own memory beyond aspects that were really familiar to me.

 

All of the above explains why I treat any reference to "eras" or "epochs" with a hefty pinch of salt.

 

John

[jjb1970]

I am interested in North American HO (and that is a broad interest, Pennsylvania, Reading, NYC, C&O, Chessie, Conrail, CSX, CN and pretty much anything I like...), Southern in the Bulleid era and BR Southern Region of the steam era (basically because I am fascinated with Bulleid), GWR, Japanese N gauge and BR corporate blue. Not much of a common thread there except that they're all railway interests. I'd rationalise my interests as:

 

North American - quite simply I like the trains and love the NE of the USA and Eastern Canada. This is very simply an interest driven by nothing deeper than liking US trains. In terms of models I collect brass diesels, fully painted, that may seem a bit extravagant but most of them I buy S/H and I offset the higher cost relative to buying Hornby, Bachmann etc by buying selectively and occasionally.

 

Southern, driven entirely by my fascination with Oliver Bulleid, hence why my interest here is more Bulleid driven than either Southern per se or any particular period. As an engineer I find Bulleid a truly fascinating character who combined genius with ideas that were...well not genius...and I have had a long love for the subject.

 

GWR, well who doesn't have a soft spot for the GWR. When I was younger I must admit I found the GWR branch line layout such a cliche and so common in magazines etc it turned me off yet now I love the GWR branch line as a layout subject. Maybe it is an age thing.....

 

Japanese trains, driven by a love of Japan in general, a wonderful country. I spent a lot of happy times there and in terms of real trains it is my honest opinion that Japan has the finest passenger rail system in the world. And by quite a margin.

 

BR corporate blue, what I grew up with in the 70's and 80's and an era of some classic diesel and electric designs.

 

SK's latest blog is another piece that raised a few smiles, made a few pertinent points and was a thoroughly enjoyable read. SK is one of the very few blogs I actually make a concious effort to read.

[JSpencer]

Read with interest SK's comments about market contraction. The 2008 crisis certainly reduced spending power but I don't think that is all.

 

From my personal experience:
Around 2000, we started getting super detail models. What is more, the number of classes announced each year were few, they were popular and the super detailing nature also mean't that minor variations between class members were modeled by default for the first time. These models were also cheap (I still have a price label on a new Q1 for £55 - You will barely get a terrier tank for that now!).
So few new classes, cheap + lots of variations quickly equaled to me buying a few members of each class. I built up a large connection of detailed but duplicated locos.

 

From say 2007 onwards, the number of classes introduced each year increased, prices had risen and more obscure but interesting classes began to be produced.
My general purchasing went from above to buying one member of each class. Realistically I did not want to end up with a collection so vast that I could never run them all, so I tried to keep it balanced. Some pre-2000 models were sold off.

 

From say 2012, my purchasing habits switched again.
Prices were well up compared with 2000, more obscure models were coming out with ever increasing numbers of variants. The rules changed to being more focussed on one region (for new purchases) and interesting prototypes (albeit they would replace an older model from that region).
To keep the size of the fleet reasonable, I trimmed down the pre-2000 fleet even more (for example the number of Heljans finally surpassed the Lima fleet!). Despite that, like the national dept, the fleet still grew.

 

This year, Hornby announced a large program, of which I ordered a large number as they really filled some of the gaps I was looking for (well the Crosti 9F will again replace an old pre-2000 model) but, Bachmann announced a small program. That saw my buying a couple few items that recently came out that I had no intention of initially buying. I brought them because they really different, well executed. Some would again replace pre-2000 models.
This year we also had the "kickstarter - pay up front ordering" and we also see new items with price TBD. It is the first time I order stuff under such conditions, however it should be noted that I only did so because again they were items I REALLY wanted.
However it should be noted that I won't do for items which I think "that looks interesting and would be nice to have".
I also changed my detailed P2 order to a Detailed TTS P2 order. I think this is one area which will grow seeing as it adds only £20 to the price.

 

Is the marketing shrinking, I cannot say, but my personal buying habits have changed.

 

On a seperate note, it could be said that in the BR steam era, you can run a mix of early and late crest plus a whole mix of diesel classes and yet still be historically accurate (with some research of course). Variety is the spice of life and whilst I can afford everything manufacturers chuck out, I do feel that there is a lot more to life than model trains.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

..I took data from the MREmag 2012 wishlist poll question on 'which era do you model' and compared the era modeled with the period where respondents were in the 10-14 group - presuming that to be a age where people first get really interested in railways.

agemodelled.jpg

 

The idea that we model what we remember (while this is absolutely true for a very significant group - BR late crest for example which is the mode of the distribution) does not hold for the everyone, or we would see a lot more BR Blue layouts...

As ever, a graph reveals so much. Look at the respondent age curve, blue bars. There's a 'suck out' in the age distribution of respondents, corresponding to those who were 10-14 in the BR Blue pre-TOPs period.

 

Why this drop in that location? Could it be that this is when folks are maximally involved on their career, too busy to take an interest in this hobby? In 2012 they would have been roughly 48 - 58. Typically an age band when the kids are more independent, preparing to move off; and personal career position pretty settled, so I don't think that's likely to be it.

 

I would advance the hypothesis that this was the nadir of the UK railway, and that much reduced the potential for contemporary and future hobby interest. As I remember the sixties, the interest in the railway among teenagers just crashed as steam went and the dreary blue came in. I near completely lost interest in the prototype from 1965, the last time I went to watch a train when young was the Flying Scotsman's last steam hauled non-stop London to Edinburgh run in 1968. The railway had become a utility like the sewers, at its best not seen at all. If that's a correct hypothesis then BR pre-TOPs blue will always be under-represented in model form.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I would advance the hypothesis that this was the nadir of the UK railway, and that much reduced the potential for contemporary and future hobby interest. As I remember the sixties, the interest in the railway among teenagers just crashed as steam went and the dreary blue came in. I near completely lost interest in the prototype from 1965, the last time I went to watch a train when young was the Flying Scotsman's last steam hauled non-stop London to Edinburgh run in 1968. The railway had become a utility like the sewers, at its best not seen at all. If that's a correct hypothesis then BR pre-TOPs blue will always be under-represented in model form.

I think that's a very reasonable hypothesis.  The railway acquired a considerable dullness as the literally 'dull' sprayed blue (although some was brush painted and glossy) was sprayed over all sorts of thing including locos and units.  A very dull, dark, and miserable blue - even when freshly - contrasted badly with a gloss brush painted painted green and contrasted even more badly with lined green on many units.

 

True dirty blue on locos tended not to look much different from dirty green on locos although in many cases the latter had been relieved by something.  Grubby unlined blue on units looked far worse than grubby lined green and coaches lined with masking tape (for want of a better term) looked far worse than yellow and black lining on maroon, even when it was dirty.  At the same time the reduction in infrastructure became far more widespread although at least it wasn't accompanied by the awful and unkempt lineside forests of untended trees and overgrown shrubs that we have on much of the network today.

 

So all in all - until the arrival of the HSTs and, later, the gradual emergence of brighter liveries it was a visually unexciting period with a railway  becoming increasingly visually depressing in so many ways;  little wonder that it might not be so popular as other periods.

[JSpencer]

You can mix early BR blue with BR green diesels easily, but would be very limited for steam subjects. In anycase the early pre tops BR diesels are the same classes as the BR green ones. So not dificult to see why people go BR steam with green diesel instead.

 

Later TOPs BR blue can be mixed in with sector liveries. Some blue classes would have disappeared though and you would need to pick members which made it into preservation.. Either way this explains why sector era is more popular than blue. Note that sector liveries can mix with early privatisation too.

[Hroth]

Apart from the fact that a diesel loco in unrelieved blue is intrinsically boring, two other factors conspired against the livery.  The first was that blue is a colour that isn't very light resistant, and the shade chosen by British Rail was particularly bad in that respect, and that they weren't cleaned with any degree of regularity meant they looked a mess after a few weeks in traffic.  Early bearers of the livery also lived cheek by jowel with the remaining steam locos and the accumulation of acid dirt didn't help the paintwork either.

 

In the late 60s and throughout the 70s, the public image of BR was that the organisation had given up and seemed to be disintegrating into the ground with each passing year.  Its an era that needs to be modelled with scrupulous accuracy.  "Weathering" isn't enough, we need shockingly dirty blue diesels and rolling stock!

[stewartingram]

Also in this period, there was an awful lot of contraction. Obviously, lines closed, also stations. But in addition, lines were singled, or excess of running lines removed. Loops were taken up, platforms closed, goods yards went. A lot of the time, this just led to dereliction, and masses of weeds and untidy areas. (Something rarely, if ever, modelled?). There was NOT an overall disposal of redundant assets (though obviously some things went for scrap), and transformation into something else. Nowadays, goods yards that were closed have been converted to smart car parks, or sold off for development (think B&Q warehouses, or new housing?), a much tidier scene. And what staion nowadays hasn't been "done up" by the operator? Very few retain an unkempt appearance.

 

Stewart

[andyman7]

As ever, a graph reveals so much. Look at the respondent age curve, blue bars. There's a 'suck out' in the age distribution of respondents, corresponding to those who were 10-14 in the BR Blue pre-TOPs period.

 

Why this drop in that location? Could it be that this is when folks are maximally involved on their career, too busy to take an interest in this hobby? In 2012 they would have been roughly 48 - 58. Typically an age band when the kids are more independent, preparing to move off; and personal career position pretty settled, so I don't think that's likely to be it.

 

I would advance the hypothesis that this was the nadir of the UK railway, and that much reduced the potential for contemporary and future hobby interest. As I remember the sixties, the interest in the railway among teenagers just crashed as steam went and the dreary blue came in. I near completely lost interest in the prototype from 1965, the last time I went to watch a train when young was the Flying Scotsman's last steam hauled non-stop London to Edinburgh run in 1968. The railway had become a utility like the sewers, at its best not seen at all. If that's a correct hypothesis then BR pre-TOPs blue will always be under-represented in model form.

But of course this is subjective. I realise I'm in a relative minority, but I was born in 1968 and from the age of 4 1/2 went to a school next to the WCML in north London. I was transfixed (yes, I mean transfixed) by AC electrics, 501s, 310s and class 25s in BR blue. If I went further afield as I got older, there would be other weird and wonderful trains and locos, all in blue. To me, that was what a proper train was. Books and museums just had pictures of old fashioned trains that looked nothing like what fascinated me, the real, modern, grimy and down-at-heel railway.

Nowadays my interests range far and wide and I enjoy railways from all eras and indeed different countries, but that curious period from the late 60s to my teenage years where literally everything bore the BR corporate image, yet just below the surface lay what was in essence, still quite a largely steam-age railway (unfitted freights, semaphore signals, steam heat were all in abundance) - to me personally, that still exerts the greatest fascination and represents the greatest period of personal interest.

Now I don't seek to convert anyone else - but I do find my hackles rise when someone else declaims as fact rather than opinion that BR blue is boring.....

[Ozexpatriate]

As ever, a graph reveals so much. Look at the respondent age curve, blue bars. There's a 'suck out' in the age distribution of respondents, corresponding to those who were 10-14 in the BR Blue pre-TOPs period.

 

I would advance the hypothesis that this was the nadir of the UK railway, and that much reduced the potential for contemporary and future hobby interest.

A valid hypothesis. As is this one:

The only problem is the lack of equal-sized categories doesn't make the figures very meaningful. For example, BR Blue Pre-TOPS is 1965-1973 (only 8 years) whilst BR Blue TOPs extended from 1973 to 1990 (17 years). I'm sure this is why there is such a dip around Pre-TOPS BR Blue.

BR Blue (Pre-TOPS) is a shorter period and were there an even distribution it would have fewer members. I suspect there could be a combination effect. Each to their own of course.

 

It's not surprising that the TOPS period is more popular. It has a more unified corporate look, which was of course the point at the time.

[Ozexpatriate]

Mr. Kohler's latest column is available on the topic of "Here today.....!" (gone tomorrow presumably.)

 

In it Simon reminisces and opines on the subject of "the local hobby shop". 

 

It's well furrowed ground here, but take a break from the subject of Scotland, more so if you fondly remember the Ford Cortina.

[JSpencer]

I personally always had the impression that Hornby gets a load of orders but then often fails to make enough to meet them (and in other cases, makes far too many!). Like as if production plans are not based on orders recieved.

 

Hopefully that has changed.

 

I still use H&M controllers for DC operation today, 35 years later. Robust solid machines, easy to maintain.

[sub39h]

There are a small number of vociferous modellers for whom the price increases are anything between a massive media-supported conspiracy, corporate lies or greed and total destruction of the future of the hobby for them. It's not even armchair modelling.

I've been quite vocal about my opinions regarding price rises. I think that some level of price rise may be necessary as the Chinese demand (and deserve) better pay and conditions, but I don't think that's the whole story. I'm sorry but Hornby or Bachmann selling a model for twice the price they sold it for a year or two ago (or even a few months ago in the case of the Polybulk) is not in my opinion justified or explainable, however good those models may be.

 

I know some people are comparing their expenditure from decades ago to now. I have a rather more recent example. In 2013 I purchased a Bachmann Class 37 discounted at Hattons for £46. That is now the discounted price of their Polybulk wagon. Something is really not right there.

 

Also everyone seems to be ignoring that the manufacturers are now demanding a maximum level of discount at which their products may be sold, reducing competition between retailers and artificially keeping their margins high. Time will tell whether this gamble for higher margins will pay off, but personally with the exception of the odd highly sought after model I don't think it will.

 

Not only does it mean that modellers in the here and now are far more selective over which models they purchase, it also means that newcomers will be scared off. £150 is a large amount of money for a loco. One of those, some rolling stock and track and very quickly you have family holiday money. It certainly doesn't bode well for introducing youngsters to the hobby.

 

I really don't have a problem with a company making a profit. If a profit weren't to be made the company wouldn't exist! But I am very skeptical of the manufacturers' explanations as to why in the space of a year they've had to increase their RRPs by as much as 66% on a like for like model. It just smacks as a bit of rip off to me and no other Chinese produced goods seem to be similarly affected.

[The Stationmaster]

I've been quite vocal about my opinions regarding price rises. I think that some level of price rise may be necessary as the Chinese demand (and deserve) better pay and conditions, but I don't think that's the whole story. I'm sorry but Hornby or Bachmann selling a model for twice the price they sold it for a year or two ago (or even a few months ago in the case of the Polybulk) is not in my opinion justified or explainable, however good those models may be.

 

Also everyone seems to be ignoring that the manufacturers are now demanding a maximum level of discount at which their products may be sold, reducing competition between retailers and artificially keeping their margins high. Time will tell whether this gamble for higher margins will pay off, but personally with the exception of the odd highly sought after model I don't think it will.

I don't think Bachmann have altered their trade discount at all have they?  

 

Hornby definitely have - two years in succession and now reduced to a wafer thin margin.   And just to add insult to that injury they are now making occasional direct sale offers on their website at prices which are lower than those which they charged wholesale for retailers.  That strikes me as a less than helpful way to 'support' your retailer network and I believe some of the latter are not happy with it.