Miss Prism Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I am having a slight problem with reconciling these two things, frankly. The vast majority of RMwebbers wouldn't know a Doncaster wheel boss if he got up and hit them in the face! Perhaps it is just my disappointment over the outcome of "years of breathtakingly comprehensive detailed research". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 It is likely they are using an existing driving wheel just as they use bogie wheels. Wheeltappers and spoke counters might get involved now. Hornby did a neat LNER Driving wheel on the A3. That extended flat section of rear splasher is probably the best that can be done if the splashers have to be somewhat oversized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I am having a slight problem with reconciling these two things, frankly. The vast majority of RMwebbers wouldn't know a Doncaster wheel boss if he got up and hit them in the face! I have to disagree with this Ian. Just because the vast majority of X amount of people don't know something shouldn't mean that those who do should 1) be made to feel bad about knowing about it and 2) look to improve the already high quality of a product by offering up an opinion on the accuracy of the EP. I agree with Miss Prism that a better depiction of the Doncaster wheel boss would be nice. If that's possible I'd certainly be happy. However all said I'm not going to lose sleep if they don't as previous offerings from other manufacturers haven't done this area very well either in some respects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2014 Hi Mike That is very useful however, however...StuartTrains posted that this was the BR version which you have shown here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88328-Bachmann-nrmlocomotionmodelscom-gnr-ivatt-c1/?p=1532281 the LNER version he posted to me....actually looks like another prototype example of 251 in preserved condition, look at the chimney position. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88328-Bachmann-nrmlocomotionmodelscom-gnr-ivatt-c1/?p=1532284 If the LNER version is infact what has been suggested to be the BR version, then all is correct. The only version which I was completely clear about was the model of 251 as it is today and which appeared in the first pics I posted (last night). As far as I'm aware the other two, and the lone tender, were not necessarily attributed as to what they represented. The press release - which I have in front of me - illustrates three prototype locos - 251 as it is today, photo dated May 2014, taken at Shildon 3251 Photo from the NRM (Ken Nunn Collection) dated 22 September 1937; the engine has Ross Pop safety valves 62822 Photo from the NRM (attributed to Cyril Herbert) dated 26 November 1950, taken at Doncaster; the engine has Ross Pop safety valves. Hopefully 'Locomotion At Shildon' can clarify for us if the 1937 picture of 3251 in the press release is 'representative' or if it portrays the model as it will appear? Of the three EPs which were shown two had the original pattern of safety valve cover (i.e. as per 251 today) and one had Ross Pops. If you look at the other detail view I posted this afternoon you will see that the safety valves are in any case a separate part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) My only gripe with Hornby's Star are the horizontal moulded on cab hand rails which make them look like little wings. Hornby fixed the wrong number of spokes problem.When did they fix the bogie wheels? Hornby automatically corrected their error with the bogies on B set coaches but not as I recall with the Star. The Star makes a good comparison with the C1, being similar in size and complexity. I am pretty certain that both went through the same amount of R&D and will have similar development costs. I've not only seen the Steam version of the Hornby 'Star' I've got one, wrong bogie wheels an'all (and an apology from Steam for that error) and yesterday I had a good look at the EP for GNR 251. My opinion, strictly a personal one but based on what I saw is that Bachmann have gone several steps further in separate fitted detail on the C1 than Hornby did on the 'Star' - the horizontal handrail on the cab side sheet being a particular case in point. I sat looking at the back end of the EP tender a few inches in front of me directly comparing it with a view of the real one just outside and it matched - and of course the tender coal rails have some of the gaps filled in, the real one has! Mike, thanks for the contrast. You've seen both of these models in person. From your (and other) photographs of the C1, my impression is that it is a good deal better executed than the Hornby Star* though we should expect such museum commissions to be roughly comparable in price with some offset for changing conditions in China (as indeed they are). * and that's ignoring the 'bitsfallingoffitis' present in the Star. Edited July 30, 2014 by Ozexpatriate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.And we wonder why the design clever concept appeared? Wonder no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That extended flat section of rear splasher is probably the best that can be done if the splashers have to be somewhat oversized. We have only the barest of photo shots to judge by (big thanks Mike), but it looks to my uneducated eye that Bachmann has got the splasher size correct, but has of necessity reduced the wheel diameter a touch because of 00 flanges. This is sensible in my view. (cf the 64xx, where Bachmann adopted the opposite strategy, with a somewhat unhappy result.) The GNR vertical clearance between flange and splasher was I believe a fairly generous one anyway. If I am correct in assuming the model splasher size is correct, then there would seem to be no need to get the shape of the splasher (the extended flat section next to the firebox) incorrect. I take S A C Martin's point about the generality of previous wheel offerings from manufacturers. I'm not going to be drawn into the price debate, but it seems to me the fawning and hype surrounding this model is not being matched by its actual engineering, so all I will say is that it will be up to you Doncaster afficionados to keep the pressure up to get premium realism for your premium-level cash. Bachmann is already well into the tooling development on this thing, and the sooner decent EP pics appear to comment on the better. I imagine some creative compromises have been necessary on the bogie - the prototype clearances to the cylinders are horrendously tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD0-6-0 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I spoke to my gran today and just happened to mention it when talking about railways (it was my grandad Her Husband who I blame for getting me into railways) and she's kindly offered to pay £50 ideal for the deposit and I can make up the rest in the next few months (I didn't think I'd get one) can anyone tell me if the deposit is refundable? I don't intend to need it but if I can't make up the rest and have to withdraw I'd like my £50 back. Rhys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I spoke to my gran today and just happened to mention it when talking about railways (it was my grandad Her Husband who I blame for getting me into railways) and she's kindly offered to pay £50 ideal for the deposit and I can make up the rest in the next few months (I didn't think I'd get one) can anyone tell me if the deposit is refundable? I don't intend to need it but if I can't make up the rest and have to withdraw I'd like my £50 back. Rhys I think the deposit is just £50 towards to model and you pay the remainder when the model is in stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD0-6-0 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think the deposit is just £50 towards to model and you pay the remainder when the model is in stock. I know I don't have to pay £50 ontop of the model then get the £50 back, I just wanted to know if I reserve the model with the £50 but then when they arrive I can't afford the last £129, that I would at least be able to get my £50 back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2014 And there was me asking Ben if he had settled into his, hmm, new job. I blame it on the train ride over part of what was Britain's first public railway and which in places gave the distinct impression of having little done to it since then (the Up line is recently relaid and looks very pretty, the Down road is distinctly rough in places. More probably the adrenalin-fuelled run from Shildon to Durham later.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frappington Jct Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I'm planning on ordering one of these in BR livery - though the cost might impede on some other projects, not that I'm complaining - this is a model I'm not going to miss! My question is though, is the BR version going to be as shown in the picture with "British Railways" on the tender, or with an early crest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I'm planning on ordering one of these in BR livery - though the cost might impede on some other projects, not that I'm complaining - this is a model I'm not going to miss! My question is though, is the BR version going to be as shown in the picture with "British Railways" on the tender, or with an early crest? None of them ever had the early crest. 62822 was the last survivor and only just managed to get British Railways with full lining out on the tender only (due to a tender swap I believe) for its final run in November 1950. Only two I think actually carried their BR numbers and 62822 is likely to have been the only one with British Railways on the tender. Happy to be corrected though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frappington Jct Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Ah, OK. I assumed that they had due to them surviving into 1950 - although I'm no BR livery buff so I don't know even whether the early was around then! Thanks though for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) An interesting comparison can be made between the as preserved (presumably the version being offered as 251) and the original 'works grey' version (Howden Boys' Book of Locomotives 1907) with the YouTube clip of 251 being turned at Barrow Hill. I have long given up on expecting 'original' pre-group as opposed to 'as preserved', seeing the rationale of the market that RTR manufacturers seem to aim for. Though I do sometimes wonder if the 'saw it in the flesh and want to buy one' customers would either know or care if manufacturers did a spot-on pre-grouping version, especially if they included a fact sheet saying the model is of what it looked like originally. Ah well I suppose it's just a matter of matching the colours for the dome after sanding or replacing it.................................. ( Joke! didn't really mean to upset any GNR aficionados.......) Plus converting to EM Gauge............... More interestingly can I complete a (short) rake of GNR coaches to go with it before it comes out. Hmmmm, I s'pose Messrs' Coachman & Co are too busy for a commission............. http://youtu.be/pV2RIppdoo4 Edited July 30, 2014 by Adams442T 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think it missed the lion & wheel era...so 'British Railways ' it is...62822...the last of the line.If unsure PM Sandra at Locomotion Models.She will confirm with Brian Greenwood. Glad to hear you are ordering....please enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frappington Jct Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I'm sure I will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) And we wonder why the design clever concept appeared? Wonder no more.Slightly annoyed at this because whether intentional or not it's a bit of a glib comment. Implying people who couldn't afford models were responsible for decline in standards. Design Clever failed because it wasn't carried out properly. The moulded rails on the Star were horrendous, the down grading of the chassis seemed to cause indifferent running. On the other hand the 2 Bil arrived to plaudits. The intention was good it was just poorly executed and stupidly highlighted in marketing spiel, where a more low key approach could have worked. And it was an attempt at making models more affordable. What's wrong with that?. I could do without sprung buffers, opening smoke box doors, rotating fans on diesels if it makes the model less expensive. These increases cannot go on. You can see here discontent from people who can't afford or justify buying this model. I think we are reaching the ceiling. Comparison to Europe are not valid. It's a different market here. Also our standard of living tends to be lower than Germany/Netherlands.and as I understand it these markets are not exactly flourishing. Similarly, yes I know it would cost a fortune buying a kit, even assuming I had the skill to make it run, but this is not a white metal kit. It's a plastic moulded injection model which costs much less to manufacture. So again comparison is really not valid. Actually for the people who had the money and skills to make a kit this probably seems like a bargain. To most of us , though, this price is pushing the envelope. Edited July 30, 2014 by Legend 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I know little about Doncaster things, but there's something about the shape of the rear driver splasher and its interface to the front of the firebox that doesn't look quite right to me... The rear splasher genuinely has a large straight (or nearly so) section as seen in side elevation, to enable it to fit against the front of the firebox, if that is the 'something' that doesn't look right. Inside the exterior splasher casing is a much closer fitting functional splasher which is necessarily a section of a circle. Aesthetically not Doncaster D.O.'s finest moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spet0114 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I have long given up on expecting 'original' pre-group as opposed to 'as preserved', seeing the rationale of the market that RTR manufacturers seem to aim for. Though I do sometimes wonder if the 'saw it in the flesh and want to buy one' customers would either know or care if manufacturers did a spot-on pre-grouping version, especially if they included a fact sheet saying the model is of what it looked like originally. Ah well I suppose it's just a matter of matching the colours for the dome after sanding or replacing it.................................. ( Joke! didn't really mean to upset any GNR aficionados.......) Plus converting to EM Gauge............... Do remember that the Locomotion models are marketed as 'National Collection in Miniature' which, in my book at least, implies 'as preserved'. To my mind it's best to view them as modern-image models..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted July 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2014 Hi Steve, Forgive me, I used the word earlier in that 251 had that type when new, I wasn't trying to state that other tender is a later type, as you say if you look at 1930s photographs, there is a real mix. My point I'm trying to get to is which tender does the LNER type have...... The photograph of the sample with no hand cut outs states that it's the BR type, but this can't be right looking at the real BR version which has cut outs. I can only model two, 4447 or 4424. 4447 would require heavy mods as it has cut down fittings, and has a cut out tender. 4424 has the tender with no cut outs. Apologies for my ramberlings. Hi 2750, I do apologise! I got the impression that there might be a misconception developing that there were 'early' and 'late' tenders and wanted to make the point (although probably didn't need to quote your post in order to do so) that it was rather that there were different types of tender that were used contemporaneously (how's that for a word!). I wrote the post quickly and without much forethought, prior to going out for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Slightly annoyed at this because whether intentional or not it's a bit of a glib comment. That's a fair cop. It was a bit glib. I do stand by the assertion that design clever appeared as a deliberate strategy because of moaning about prices by price sensitive punters. Mr. Kohler's comments in his Simon Says "Winds of Change" blog corroborate this. We can debate about whether it was executed well or poorly or whether it was a good idea in the first place until the cows come home. Edited July 30, 2014 by Ozexpatriate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Those who consider that they were "officially" involved in influencing the NRM's decision to produce three versions of this model appear unwilling to reveal how long ago they were "consulted". I however am not bound by any confidentiality clauses as my involvement was exceedingly brief and informal (I mentioned some of the complexities of the features of the various members of the class over the course of the years and confirmed my willingness to assist further but then had no further contact from the NRM). I am therefore free to say that it was very clear to me at Shildon last September that 3251 and a 628xx were to be offered, correctly modelled, as well as 251 in post-preservation condition. If anybody was "consulted" for views on what ought to be offered after September 2013, I'd say they had very little influence on the matter. I've been told on several occasions that RTR locos in early nationalisation period transitional/hybrid liveries are poor sellers. I wonder whether the NRM's decision to offer such a version of this loco will prove to be wisdom or folly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 If it means the NRM ends up with some BR black liveried shelf stock, of which I can later buy an example while visiting, then I will propose 'higher wisdom'. Now, where's that outline of an Ivatt 2-6-2 proposal based on the large atlantic boiler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) If they are to offer a version for BR, then it can only be a copy of a real loco and only two carried British Railways insignia (not cycling lions). The GNR Atlantics were at the end of their lives, much like the L&Y and GCR 4-6-0's, by the time of Nationalisation and barely reached 1951. So its either as preserved, LNER apple green, or black from wartime to withdrawal. I suspect for most people it is going to be the preserved loco charging round layouts on charter trains so that it can operate at any period from restoration to present day.... Edited July 30, 2014 by coachmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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