Bachmann NRM/Locomotionmodels.com - GNR Ivatt C1

[Dava]

These are, I think, the first RTR Atlantics in any scale and probably will remain so, if they were 0 gauge you'd expect to pay a lot more!

 

Dava

[JSpencer]

All very good.

BUT this country has been in a recession which we may or may not be coming out of. The price is very high for many people and a big step too far. 

It is all well and good blaming Chinese workers wages as the problem. Perhaps the makers should consider cutting their profit margins as well as simply passing it onto the consumer. In this case its model railways no one need to buy one. as to whether its a winner  time will tell. I have noted they are not saying how many are being made, it would appear scare tactics are being employed with the usual seller tactic "quick buy will you can " never heard that expression before or perhaps have we ?

 

I will happily make do with my old revamped K's version .  I could afford it but I simply cannot justify buying one, many people may have the same opinion.

As an NRM special, it was always going to be more than a regular model, but detail will still remain first class.

 

I personally estimated it would be around £160 myself given that it is a special for the NRM etc so was a little surprised none the less but it did not stop me buying one. Of course if it arrives below standard, well..... I won,t say anymore.

 

I find modern OO gauge models to be almost on a par with their larger O gauge cousins, previously for around 1/5 of the price, now heading for a 1/3rd of it. Whether most people in general need OO gauge to O gauge standard is another debate. I don,t think it is one for the NRM to address (although their shop needs to keep some cheap souvenirs), but certainly the main manufacturers do need to think about getting new customer recruited.

Trains are in competition with other hobbies after all, WWII re enacting is starting to look a far more interesting and cheaper option, so is naval history. Model tank building however has seen kits explode in prices by 4 fold in recent years.

[Dunsignalling]

Well as I've said before there are two sides to the argument. Yes costs have gone up but Rapido are able to produce a 4 car tilting train with lights through the same sales channel for £225. DJ a Q6 for £135. Presumably Dave is making an acceptable profit, and allowing for a margin at the retailer. These models will also have research and preparation I'm sure to a more than acceptable standard. So in this context £180 seems a bit steep. On the other hand I think the responses show that even for a Limited Edition £180 is approaching or beyond the level people will pay.perhaps the glass ceiling has been reached. We could go into macroeconomics but undoubtably lack of pay increases while living costs rise and disposable income drops is a major factor here. Even Hornby gets that!

 

Finally there is some canny marketing going on. No indications of quantities being produced, whether it will be produced in future years , the intention being given that this is a unique opportunity , jump on the boat or lose out. People are not daft , and are increasingly cynical,they deserve a full explanation so they can make an informed choice.

 

I'm still swithering .i can afford it but can I justify paying that for something that will probably stay in its box for most of the year? Not sure it's Value For Money for me. But we will see just how popular it is. I note there are still some Compounds available from Locomotion at £140, so they haven't moved that fast.

The Q6 should be a lot simpler to make, just a rigid chassis block against what I suspect will need to be a quite complex bit of machinery to make the Atlantic run well and pull a decent load.

 

Also, of course, the unlined black livery will shave at least a tenner off compared to the multi-layered tampo printing needed for passenger locos.

 

John   

[The Stationmaster]

Mike Stationmaster, I can tell you had a good day but have you overlooked the fact that it is Great NORTHERN and not Great WESTERN.....     

I refer you sir, to post No.429 in this thread - it's amazing where they actually got in the later part of their life and before the B1s swept all away  (incidentally on the Swindon turn they replaced GC 'Jersey Lily' atlantics).

 

Next thing we know they'll have had a regular turn over a certain Trans-Pennine route ;)

[Igor]

...this one's a winner.

 

 

By virtue of the regular posts, this is starting very much to sound like the hard sell. I'm sure everyone can make up their own mind.

 

Finally there is some canny marketing going on. No indications of quantities being produced, whether it will be produced in future years , the intention being given that this is a unique opportunity , jump on the boat or lose out. People are not daft , and are increasingly cynical,they deserve a full explanation so they can make an informed choice.

Spot on Mr Legend. Some transparency required here, inc. quantities etc. Remember the Prototype Deltic? Lost count how many versions and quantity have been offered. For this price, I'd like some reassurances.

[coachmann]

 

 

By virtue of the regular posts, this is starting very much to sound like the hard sell. I'm sure everyone can make up their own mind.

 

 

Spot on Mr Legend. Some transparency required here, inc. quantities etc. Remember the Prototype Deltic? Lost count how many versions and quantity have been offered. For this price, I'd like some reassurances.

I suppose a wheeler-dealer hoping to make a profit on ebay would want such reassurances, but why would it bother an ordinary railway modeller? 

Edited July 29, 2014 by coachmann

[royaloak]

Fancy the BR C1 but not sure about the £179 price tag, need to persuade the wife

No need, I just waited for her to go to bed and then got the bank card out to order one!

Edited July 29, 2014 by royaloak

[newbryford]

The Class 66 in Freightliner Shanks was an exclusive model to Kernow Model Centre when it was released, but then a year or so later Bachmann decided to manufacture exactly the same model for the collectors club, except for an anniversary logo on the cab sides......

 

Not quite....

 

IIRC, the Bachmann model was also fitted with sound.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Ozexpatriate]

DJ a Q6 for £135. Presumably Dave is making an acceptable profit, and allowing for a margin at the retailer.

My guess is that Dave is not quite at EP sample stage on the Q6. I don't believe he has shared any CAD data for us to compare detail and nor is the Q6 priced as a museum supporting premium item. By my thinking, Q6 pricing is irrelevant to this conversation.

 

Yes costs have gone up but Rapido are able to produce a 4 car tilting train with lights through the same sales channel for £225.

Certainly this is a Locomotion item and no doubt will be heavily detailed. I presume that it will be made in a different factory than Bachmann Branch-Line's Kader factory. Makes you realize what a bargain the Rapido APT-E will be doesn't it?

 

... £180 seems a bit steep.

Then people won't buy it. My guess is that there are people who will pay this price and support the museum as they do. Edited July 30, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[darren01]

Hi 

I feel they are pushing the to limit  on how much we are welling to pay for a model, even if it is a limited edition?. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by darren01

[Ozexpatriate]

I feel they are pushing the to limit  on how much we are welling to pay for a model, even if it is a limited edition.

Which is of course, their prerogative.

[The Great Bear]

Having paid £150 for a "design clever" Steam museum Lode Star, given the quality of the model Stationmaster has described and the R&D cost in this new model, £180 for an NRM C1 seems entirely reasonable to me.

Edited July 30, 2014 by The Great Bear

[micklner]

Which is of course, their prerogative.

Perhaps that also means they wont sell as many as they think.

 

I suppose a wheeler-dealer hoping to make a profit on ebay would want such reassurances, but why would it bother an ordinary railway modeller? 

Simple , people want to see what they are getting for £180 I would

[Legend]

I suppose a wheeler-dealer hoping to make a profit on ebay would want such reassurances, but why would it bother an ordinary railway modeller?

 

Given the not inconsiderable number of posts that say "I wish I could get one but just can't afford it" I suspect they want to make a judgement on whether there will excess supply and possibly a lower price. One might appear in main range ( now resolved)It might also be people want to save up and hope that one will be available when they have the money. There are a host of reasons. And actually keeping these details behind a veil of secrecy only panders to the eBay wheeler dealer.

[micklner]

Then that will be your and their choice.Incidentally,who is "blaming " the workforce,,,,why use that word ? Everyone is entitled to a fair return for their labour.

Do you seriously think that any of our Model railway companies could consider cutting their profit margins ? None of them are charitable institutions created solely for our benefit. Consider...where would any of us be without the quantum leap in quality that there has been in the last 15 years.

"Scare tactics" ? I think not..And the many people with the same opinion ? No doubt we'll be hearing from them soon.

The extent and quality of research and preparation over some years that has gone into the production of this model is awesome.

You want something cheap....fine...then this is not for you.

It seems we still want something without being prepared to pay a proper,costed market price fo

Blaming the workforce ? what other excuses with any actual evidence have Bachmann given for a hike of 20% + in their prices I havent read any so far. Only Bachmann et al know what a proper costed market price is, I would love to see what that price structure is !!

 

As to charitable institutions created for us , well they rely on us to buy their products perhaps they think we are are a charity set up to pay them anything they like to charge.

As said before if they cut their profit margins they might ? then sell more goods. As it is now becoming now many people will walk away. They are living in a bubble, playing the get in now because we cant make anymore game at set prices at any level they think the market will bear.  If that is not scare tactics which I think it is , then its a very convenient sales method and a poorly veiled excuse for their prices hikes.

 

Want it cheap ? is irrelevant when the buyer simply hasnt got the money.

 

Newcomers of any age will have a look and in many case will never look again. If that continues the hobby and the associated companies will die.

 

The companies are putting prices at the tipping point once that tips au revoir. 

[black and decker boy]

Remember the Prototype Deltic? Lost count how many versions and quantity have been offered. .

There have been many versions \ batches of the Deltic but often with variations and certainly with no discounted prices.

 

You pay your money and make your choice. £179 will either be acceptable to you or not. I'm sure Locomotion are confident, based on their sales history of models such as the Deltic, that they will sell through and make their money.

[Ryde-on-time]

Given the not inconsiderable number of posts that say "I wish I could get one but just can't afford it" I suspect they want to make a judgement on whether there will excess supply and possibly a lower price. One might appear in main range ( now resolved)

Err.....I thought all previous statements confirm it is an NRM exclusive?

[Paul Cram]

Last time I looked both Bachmann and Hornby were making losses so cutting their profit margins seems a sure fire way of going out of business. As it happens I think they are both in danger of that if the price resistance we are seeing materialises so there won't be any new models from them.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Given the not inconsiderable number of posts that say "I wish I could get one but just can't afford it" I suspect they want to make a judgement on whether there will excess supply and possibly a lower price. One might appear in main range ( now resolved)It might also be people want to save up and hope that one will be available when they have the money. There are a host of reasons. And actually keeping these details behind a veil of secrecy only panders to the eBay wheeler dealer.

I expect that the NRM have commissioned a quantity of each version in line with what appears to be the usual figure, i.e. about 502. The price will reflect that and the NRM's desire to take advantage of the "rarity" value of the models.

 

Equally the contract probably stipulates that Bachmann cannot either produce any other derivatives at all (unlikely) or until such a time has passed that the NRM consider that they will have sold most, if not all, of the three versions they commissioned. Of course and as usual, few if any of us have knowledge of the terms of the contract so conjecture, whilst possibly entertaining, is rather futile.

 

With respect to the pricing of this model being an indication of other new products, perhaps the amount of detailing (opening smokebox doors, etc.) will seem inappropriate given the reaction on RMweb and so both amount of detail and price will be reduced.

 

Perhaps Bachmann see smaller production volumes at higher retail prices through specific retail channels such as the NRM as an increasing sector of their UK business. (but that is more speculation  ). Perhaps the days of "pile em high" buying of models may be coming to an end and that more selective purchasing will have to become the norm.

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

By virtue of the regular posts, this is starting very much to sound like the hard sell. I'm sure everyone can make up their own mind.

 

 

Spot on Mr Legend. Some transparency required here, inc. quantities etc. Remember the Prototype Deltic? Lost count how many versions and quantity have been offered. For this price, I'd like some reassurances.

The Deltic was always going to be made available in batches.

In fact I had some correspondence with the NRM at the time regarding suggestions for suitable versions/bundles.

The price for the C1 seems to me to be quite reasonable, for a model of this complexity, in 2015.

Not of interest to me, as out of time and area, however one cut down for NB use might prove tempting.

Hard sell?

They state a price you decide. Simples

Reassurances?

Whatever is said now only applies now.

If it goes well, as I hope it does, a run of some of the minor variations, at a premium, might well be tempting for all those involved at some point in the future.

Bernard

[JSpencer]

Having paid £150 for a "design clever" Steam museum Lode Star, given the quality of the model Stationmaster has described and the R&D cost in this new model, £180 for an NRM C1 seems entirely reasonable to me.

 

My only gripe with Hornby's Star are the horizontal moulded on cab hand rails which make them look like little wings. Hornby fixed the wrong number of spokes problem.

 

The Star makes a good comparison with the C1, being similar in size and complexity. I am pretty certain that both went through the same amount of R&D and will have similar development costs.

 

The Hornby model boasts a 5 pole skew wound motor (which the C1 certainly will not have as Bachmann are always 3 pole motors), sprung buffers, lots of seperately fitted cab detail and detail between the forward frames. 

Indeed studying the photos posted so far of the C1, I can clearly see the tender brake shoes are not in line with the wheels and that the tender coal rails have the gaps filled. Of course this is an EP so....  and to be honest, I'm not too bothered if this is how actual model will turn out.

 

Therefore if the Bachmann C1 boasts a hole series of improvements over a Hornby Star, I will be glad to hear it. But I think the Star is overall a very good model practically on a par with the C1 from what I have seen so far.

 

Does any one know if the C1 will have sprung buffers? (I ask because City of Truro does not but then its shanks are rather narrow).

Edited July 30, 2014 by JSpencer

[t-b-g]

Reality check time!

 

When will folk get it into their heads that the era of superb quality RTR models at rock bottom prices is over.

 

The options are to produce downgraded models with less detail and lower spec. mechanisms or increase the prices. Manufacturers are tinkering with both routes at the moment and whatever they do, people have a pop at them because they are used to high quality and low prices and don't want things to change. Such people need to wake up. Things have changed. Bleating about it on a forum will not make the world go back to how it was a few years ago.

 

Compare the price of this to just about any equivalent mainland Europe or American loco and it is a bargain.

 

Sure, it is more than we are used to paying but it is a limited edition special at a very good price.

 

If there are enough people wanting to purchase them at that price (and the initial reaction makes me think that there are enough, even I have made a rare visit to the wallet) then exactly why should Bachmann produce and sell them for less than that. All it would do is reduce their already poor profits.

 

Now look at the price of a DJH kit, with a decent motor, gearbox and wheels and you are looking at somewhere around the same cost.

 

As with all these things, we have an easy and free choice of at least three possible options. We can buy one. We can keep our money and not have one. We can whinge about it (this option can be used in conjunction with either of the first two).

 

So anybody who doesn't want to pay that price, don't! Nobody is forcing you. There are lots of things in this world I would like to have but can't afford. I choose not to moan about it and I get a little fed up when I see "I really want one but I am unable (which actually means unwilling) to pay the price" postings.

 

Tony

[Dunsignalling]

Given the not inconsiderable number of posts that say "I wish I could get one but just can't afford it" I suspect they want to make a judgement on whether there will excess supply and possibly a lower price. One might appear in main range ( now resolved)It might also be people want to save up and hope that one will be available when they have the money. There are a host of reasons. And actually keeping these details behind a veil of secrecy only panders to the eBay wheeler dealer.

I'd consider these are decisions that will not yet have been made. If any or all of these initial releases sell like hot cakes, it seems reasonable to expect further runs of the popular ones, albeit with different numbers.

 

Any slow movers will hang around on Locomotion's website until they do sell but any thought of a price reduction lies a long way down the road and, in my estimation, would only happen if a particular version proved extremely hard to shift. 

 

Whether or not any model will retain or increase its resale value (and whether that matters) is a judgement that only the purchaser can make. Whatever the precise numbers, these models are being produced in the hundreds for sale to a (generally) ageing customer base.

 

I'd suggest that if one is looking for new model locomotives as investments, something produced by firms like Golden Age Models would be a better bet.

 

Mass production models only become really valuable many decades down the road when most of those made have deteriorated or disappeared.

 

My advice is, if you like it, buy it, use it, enjoy it while you can and leave your children's executor to discover he's sitting on a minor treasure in 60 years time (maybe).

 

John

 

Edit: PS: And make your mind up before the only way you can get one is from an eBay wheeler dealer!

Edited July 30, 2014 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

I expect that the NRM have commissioned a quantity of each version in line with what appears to be the usual figure, i.e. about 502. The price will reflect that and the NRM's desire to take advantage of the "rarity" value of the models.

 

Equally the contract probably stipulates that Bachmann cannot either produce any other derivatives at all (unlikely) or until such a time has passed that the NRM consider that they will have sold most, if not all, of the three versions they commissioned. Of course and as usual, few if any of us have knowledge of the terms of the contract so conjecture, whilst possibly entertaining, is rather futile.

 

With respect to the pricing of this model being an indication of other new products, perhaps the amount of detailing (opening smokebox doors, etc.) will seem inappropriate given the reaction on RMweb and so both amount of detail and price will be reduced.

 

Perhaps Bachmann see smaller production volumes at higher retail prices through specific retail channels such as the NRM as an increasing sector of their UK business. (but that is more speculation  ). Perhaps the days of "pile em high" buying of models may be coming to an end and that more selective purchasing will have to become the norm.

The NRM would not be the first company to have 100% exclusivity to certain locomotive/model type.

 

Kernow already have the DEMU 100% exclusive to them

Model rail will have the USA tanks

TMC have the mk1 horseboxes

 

So if the NRM wanted the C1s as their tooling forever, it is certainly possible.

 

It has been stated on several occasions that opening smokebox doors can make the model look worse. Certainly it is a feature I can live without if it avoids cost.

[Ian Hargrave]

As a postscript to Tony's post 451 above,yesterdayBrian Greenwood said quite firmly that the one thing they would not compromise on was quality.