Bachmann NRM/Locomotionmodels.com - GNR Ivatt C1

[The Stationmaster]

 

We have only the barest of photo shots to judge by (big thanks Mike), but it looks to my uneducated eye that Bachmann has got the splasher size correct, but has of necessity reduced the wheel diameter a touch because of 00 flanges. This is sensible in my view. (cf the 64xx, where Bachmann adopted the opposite strategy, with a somewhat unhappy result.) The GNR vertical clearance between flange and splasher was I believe a fairly generous one anyway. If I am correct in assuming the model splasher size is correct, then there would seem to be no need to get the shape of the splasher (the extended flat section next to the firebox) incorrect.

 

I take S A C Martin's point about the generality of previous wheel offerings from manufacturers. I'm not going to be drawn into the price debate, but it seems to me the fawning and hype surrounding this model is not being matched by its actual engineering, so all I will say is that it will be up to you Doncaster afficionados to keep the pressure up to get premium realism for your premium-level cash. Bachmann is already well into the tooling development on this thing, and the sooner decent EP pics appear to comment on the better.

 

I imagine some creative compromises have been necessary on the bogie - the prototype clearances to the cylinders are horrendously tight.

 

I understand - from the designer - that the splasher size is correct because to have done otherwise would have thrown all sorts of things 'out', thus the driving wheel diameter is slightly reduced.  The main reason for reducing the wheel diameter - as I understood what was said to me - is because of the very tight clearance between the two driving wheel flanges.  (I also took as good a pic as I could get of that on the real one before I saw the model as I was interested to see how they had tackled that particular problem.)

 

The 'straight bit' on the trailing splasher is very simply explained - it's there on the real one (I took some pics of it too, before I saw the model ) and it is because of the intrusion into the arc of the splasher rim of the front end of the firebox cladding; it might possibly be slightly longer on the model but it starts in the same place, by a washout plug, and once the model is fully painted and lined it will alter in appearance.  Strange though it might sound it also matches, fairly exactly, an official GNR broadside view of a large atlantic on one of their official issue postcards but it is an interesting - looking through my postcard collection, that it does not show well in photos and was misdrawn on some contemporaneous commercial postcards.

 

The appearance of the wheels is probably rather deceptive at this stage on the EP as they are bare metal.  I suspect the bogie wheels might be very slightly undersize for the reason identified by Miss P but I didn't ask about them so can't be sure on that one and I could be wrong.  Without measuring them I haven't got a clue if the wheel bosses are undersize but as I said once they are painted their appearance will change anyway.  I can't comment on the balance weights as I didn't get them on my pics of the big one.

 

I think overall that, price notwithstanding (in some respects) we cannot overlook that the model has to include certain compromises in order to allow it to run on the layouts of those owners who will be so inclined.  If every other dimension of the driving wheels is accurate they are still going to look 'different' because of their reduced diameter and the only way that can be avoided is to make them flangeless - coincidentally we were looking at the spacing of the driving wheels of the 'Saint' at Didcot on Sunday and there is 1.5 inches between the leading and centre driving wheel flanges, I doubt the atlantic is much different.

[gr.king]

If it means the NRM ends up with some BR black liveried shelf stock, of which I can later buy an example while visiting, then I will propose 'higher wisdom'.

 

Now, where's that outline of an Ivatt 2-6-2 proposal based on the large atlantic boiler?

Oddly enough that same cynical thought had crossed my mind. Plenty of non-standard Atlantics to create too.....

[Guest 2750]

Oddly enough that same cynical thought had crossed my mind. Plenty of non-standard Atlantics to create too.....

 

It's interesting in Staionmaster's earlier post that it appears the loco breaks down into it's component parts (Mike I've reposted it here so it can be seen, if it's a problem do say). 

So Bachmann now have some rather useful GN parts...in particular the cabs.

 

They appear to be doing both smokeboxes (with and without saddle).

[Oldddudders]

I am having a slight problem with reconciling these two things, frankly. The vast majority of RMwebbers wouldn't know a Doncaster wheel boss if he got up and hit them in the face!

 

 

I have to disagree with this Ian. Just because the vast majority of X amount of people don't know something shouldn't mean that those who do should 1) be made to feel bad about knowing about it and 2) look to improve the already high quality of a product by offering up an opinion on the accuracy of the EP.

 

I agree with Miss Prism that a better depiction of the Doncaster wheel boss would be nice. If that's possible I'd certainly be happy. However all said I'm not going to lose sleep if they don't as previous offerings from other manufacturers haven't done this area very well either in some respects.

Congratulations on completely missing the point of my post Simon - not the first of mine you've found fault with in recent days. I really must try harder.

 

Miss Prism starts by disclaiming knowledge of matters Doncaster. Fair enough, I know zip as well. And then offers knowledgeable comment on Doncaster wheels details, spokes and bosses, which very few other members would be capable of making. Does that make my point any clearer?

[DLPG]

Fancy the BR C1 but not sure about the £179 price tag, need to persuade the wife

Well decision made, just not telling the wife! As I'm planning a model of Seamer on the Scarborough/ York line I've seen evidence they visited, so consider another BR version sold. Any version will look superb in front of a rake of Pullmans.

[WD0-6-0]

This has probably been mentioned before but the advert banner on here has a photo of 251 but it has been reversed and it looks incredibly odd. It took me a while to realise what was wrong. I've also preordered 251 as preserved, only this morning I thought I'd never be able to afford one but now I've put a deposit on one.

Rhys

[Guest 2750]

Well decision made, just not telling the wife! As I'm planning a model of Seamer on the Scarborough/ York line I've seen evidence they visited, so consider another BR version sold. Any version will look superb in front of a rake of Pullmans.

 

If you were modelling the late 30s, York had two of them so you could certainly get away with them. I've photos of them both on Scarborough duties.

[S.A.C Martin]

Congratulations on completely missing the point of my post Simon - not the first of mine you've found fault with in recent days. I really must try harder.

 

Miss Prism starts by disclaiming knowledge of matters Doncaster. Fair enough, I know zip as well. And then offers knowledgeable comment on Doncaster wheels details, spokes and bosses, which very few other members would be capable of making. Does that make my point any clearer?

 

Not really Ian. As I read your original post it seemed you were being rather dismissive of Miss Prism's knowledge. If that's not the case, then fair enough.

 

There's certainly no intention from my end to cause offence - but nobody can agree with everyone all the time surely? From where I'm sat I've simply disagreed and given my reasons why. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing personal.

[MikeParkin65]

Apologies to all for going O/T but does anyone know if the compound in the forthcoming train set is the same as the NRM model.

 

 

 

Its tempting to say that it is the same model - in fact I wonder if its from the same production run as the original release. It seems strange that Bachmann would miss the opportunity to produce a different running number for the train set if this were a new production run - also given all we have been told about rising costs the set is remarkably priced. There were no new Compounds in the recent Bachmann announcement so my guess is these are unsold Locomotion stock. I'd be happy to be corrected on this.

[JSpencer]

Having built a P2, the wheels on that are very close as well. I had to trim the flanges back on all 4 centre drivers. Hornby must have faced similar problem.

 

I agree Bachmann solution to reduce diameter a little is the best compromise in this case.

[Roy P]

Fancy the BR C1 but not sure about the £179 price tag, need to persuade the wife

 

 

Well decision made, just not telling the wife!...........

 

I put my deposit on 251. My wife asked "Are you sure you don't want the other two?"

It seems the old line "If you can't get the model you want build a kit" also applies to wives.

Still, she knows I am fully aware of the price of vintage Sindy dolls.

 

Special thanks to Sandra at Locomotion for sorting out my payment glitch so speedily.

 

RP

[Andy Hayter]

Comparison to Europe are not valid. It's a different market here. Also our standard of living tends to be lower than Germany/Netherlands.

 

 

I would like to see the stats that support that view.  I don't know whether on average German living standards are currently higher than the UK, but I do know that at the lower extreme they are not.

 

UK Minimum wage 2013 £6.31 per hour (not a lot I will grant you) - introduced to try and activate the job market and get people back to work.  Now used to keep wages down.

Germany - no minimum wage   Concept set up of the 650€ job (that is per month not week - I think at todays exchange that equates to £3.45/hr )  - introduced to try and activate the job market and get people back to work.  Now used to keep wages down.

 

Doing the exact calculations is difficult because of tax breaks and subsidies paid (in cash or kind) to low paid workers, but that is a very big gap.

 

I cannot speak for the Netherlands.

[Trains&armour]

It's not a GWR machine. It never ran in Wales, certainly not on the weight restricted Cambrian coast line. It doesn't fit in with my WW2 theme. I don't need it. I can't really afford it. £ 180 is a lot of money for a spur of the moment idea. The wife will have a fit....

 

So I'll  order one, the fully lined GNR 251. Because I think it's going to be a fantastic model. And I can always respray it in Wartime black if I ever want it to blend in with my WW2 railway theme. 

As to the price, well I'm Dutch, and used to run Marklin trains.. I won't say it's a bloody bargain, but from my continental point of view it certainly isn't all that expensive.

Besides that, it supports the NRM, one of the best Railway museums in the world. Don't get me wrong, the Dutch railway museum is rather nice, but it isn't in the same league as the NRM. It's not free either. And I rather liked the touch of involving members of the RMweb community, clearly a sign that the NRM respects the railway modelling fraternity.

You Brits just don't know how good you have it.  

 

[Miss Prism]

The rear splasher genuinely has a large straight (or nearly so) section as seen in side elevation, to enable it to fit against the front of the firebox, if that is the 'something' that doesn't look right.

 

I recognise the genuinely straight section, and maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough earlier, but my point is that Bachmann's straight section appears to be a lot longer than the prototype's. I do not underestimate the trickiness in CAD and tooling to get these two moulding pieces to fit more snuggly, but this is an area that could and should be improved in my opinion. Moreover (sorry, Mike), I don't think this discrepancy will alter under a coat of paint.

 

 

 

Edit: I have reversed the portion of Mike's model pic purely for comparative illustration purposes, and the drain cock position is therefore on the correct side on the model.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Miss Prism

[Mod4]

Please can we keep to the topic of the announced models themselves and cease the potentially inflammatory posts. Any further such posts will be removed.

 

Edit; due to repeated reporting of some of the previous potentially inflammatory posts such posts have now also been hidden.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Mod4

[Miss Prism]

Btw, did the LNER add extra (or move) washout plugs on the firebox?

[Guest 2750]

Btw, did the LNER add extra (or move) washout plugs on the firebox?

 

Boilers produced in the mid 1930s onwards had mudholes rather than washout plugs. Not sure whether the position changed though.

[S.A.C Martin]

Btw, did the LNER add extra (or move) washout plugs on the firebox?

 

They did this on a number of boiler types between locomotives. I have a feeling the Atlantics have at least two different firebox configurations dependent upon time period.

 

The number of boiler variations of washout plugs, domes and mud hole doors is staggering on the Gresley, Thompson and Peppercorn Pacifics, and only the A4s really had any sense of standardisation in that respect. So perhaps that in itself is a family trait of the LNER...

[S.A.C Martin]

I recognise the genuinely straight section, and maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough earlier, but my point is that Bachmann's straight section appears to be a lot longer than the prototype's. I do not underestimate the trickiness in CAD and tooling to get these two moulding pieces to fit more snuggly, but this is an area that could and should be improved in my opinion. Moreover (sorry, Mike), I don't think this discrepancy will alter under a coat of paint.

 

gnr-atlantic-comparison.jpg

 

 

Tell you what, does make the driving wheel boss look very undersized by comparison. Good photograph and illustration of point, well made.

[The Stationmaster]

I recognise the genuinely straight section, and maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough earlier, but my point is that Bachmann's straight section appears to be a lot longer than the prototype's. I do not underestimate the trickiness in CAD and tooling to get these two moulding pieces to fit more snuggly, but this is an area that could and should be improved in my opinion. Moreover (sorry, Mike), I don't think this discrepancy will alter under a coat of paint.

 

gnr-atlantic-comparison.jpg

 

I think the angle of view makes a difference to be honest.  If you take a nearer broadside view of the real 251 and compare it with the EP the difference is not as stark but, as i said, I think it is slightly longer than an exact scaling down.  I've just compared two of my pics of the real 251 and the change of angle of view, and seeing the footplating wholly as edge on (or as near to that as makes little difference does alter the perspective.  Still not absolutely the same but far less jarringly obvious.  

 

Unfortunately, because of the light, my views of the prototype are from the opposite side which might make a difference in respect of the studs securing the cladding over the firebox but if they are the same on both sides the number of them is correctly represented  (and the spacing is presumably proportion?).  

[The Stationmaster]

 People keep mentioning sales supporting the museum... Can anyone explain how this works? What mechanism is in place to ensure that profits goes towards the upkeep of the collection rather than civil servant salaries (or the black hole that is the Flying Scotsman).

What on earth makes you think that the sales don't help to support the museum?  No doubt whatever process exists is overseen by those who audit the museum's accounts and don't overlook the fact that it is a public concern and therefore in many respects subject to far greater scrutiny than many private companies.

 

If the museum tells us that any surplus it makes from the sale of models (and other items it sells) goes to support its activities why should we doubt it - there is plenty of information, including financial information, available on the internet should we want to look into detail , or even an email to Science Museum Group, .  Perhaps a separate thread would be more appropriate -where the finances of Locomotion, the NRM and the Science Museum Group could be discussed against a background of the available information rather than mixing it up in a thread about a model?

[Ronny]

On the subject of wives, mine recently brought me a 1941 Bren Machine gun (far more expensive than all 3 C1s put togethor) for my birthday..

 

 

Sheesh, remind me not to disagree with any of your posts!

[WOMBATTY]

Congratulations to Bachmann/HRM

 

I have wanted an Ivatt C1 since I was ten years Old

 

Thank you ;-)

[Not Captain Kernow]

I know I don't have to pay £50 ontop of the model then get the £50 back, I just wanted to know if I reserve the model with the £50 but then when they arrive I can't afford the last £129, that I would at least be able to get my £50 back

Distance Selling Regulations mean that you can cancel your order up to 14 days after you have received it (it used to be 7 but has recently been extended to 14) and receive your money back and postage in full.  You may be responsible for the cost of returning the model if you cancel after you have received it.  So unless the NRM are going to breach the law then you can get your £50 back if you change your mind for any reason whatsoever.  This of course only applies if you ordered either by phone, post or website.  If you ordered in person at Shildon you are not covered by these regulations and it would then be at their discretion if you changed your mind.

[250BOB]

Why not ask them?

As the NRM Locomotion models guy is posting regularly on this thread, I did think that my question might be read by him, and other knowledgeable RMwebbers.