Bachmann NRM/Locomotionmodels.com - GNR Ivatt C1

[t-b-g]

Pretty much any model railway spending is in the luxury/leisure category. It is all optional and through choice.

 

The previous NRM special, the GCR 9J (J11) was clearly underpriced as some people bought them up just to sell them on at a profit.

 

How soon will it be after the release that the first GNR 251 appears on ebay at a vastly inflated price?

 

So why should such profits go into the hands of private moneygrabbing individuals rather than the manufacturers and the NRM, who have done all the work?

 

Yes the price has gone up but such models are still extremely good value.

[Oldddudders]

 

 

I don't agree that there has been any "hard sell " about this,

I believe that remark was directed at someone who has helped a bit behind the scenes on this model - and probably got at least two free cups of coffee for his efforts - and naturally relished seeing the model launched yesterday. Enthusiasm is not always popular, it seems.

[railroadbill]

1. Fund raising for NRM - very good.

 

2.  Had some Skinley drawings for loco many years ago but never got anywhere with building model. Now I'm going to have one.

 

3. It won't be staying in the box either.  

[Guest 2750]

Morning

 

Would it be possible to have some confirmation on which tenders are with which models. As I can see it, there are two tenders being produced. One is the type 251 is preserved with, and has hand cutouts in the tender.

 

The other tender is this type:

 

Now a member from Locomotion posted photos and showed the above tender with the BR version, however on Locomotion's own website we see the BR version actually has the earlier tender with cut outs. 

http://www.locomotionmodels.com/british-model-railways/oo-gauge-4mm/nrm-exclusive-editions-and-collection/bachmannnrm-exclusive-ivatt-c1-atlantic-br-black-deposit.htm

 

Does this mean that the tender without cutouts as shown in my second photo is to be grouped with the LNER version?

 

I should add the photos I have added are all over 75 years old, so are now out of copyright.

[JSpencer]

The Star though (I presume) was new body on the existing Castle chassis in the range for a few years while the C1 is brand new - that's what I meant by more R&D costs - though I haven't clue what split is in cost between loco body/chassis, tender body/chassis

 

 I am not sure about the chassis but they certainly share the same tenders. Whether these new C1 tenders will be exclusive to the NRM as well or likely to pop up else where, we will have to wait and see. The NRM are certainly taking quite a risk keeping the entire C1 class exclusive to themselves which probably edged prices up a little. 

While I aggree we should support the NRM, we should not forget entry is free into the museum (which surprises me a lot really). The equivalent in France at Mulhouse charges all visitors a nice entry fee.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The way I see it, we have to stop thinking there is only one model railway market, that is a high-detail low-cost one. I don't see car manufacturers having only one car market. They make models to suit different budgets, with the best quality ones up at the high end. Even Skoda do that. Though their relative prices are lower compared to other manufacturers, Skoda still have higher priced models where the quality is better.

 

So perhaps it is with Bachmann and Hornby as the two main manufacturers. They need to be aware of the higher and lower ends and produce products accordingly. Hornby seem to have previously given the lower end more attention recently, while Bachmann are slipping towards the higher end. Where NRM commissions come in is like having a handbuilt car department sitting alongside a normal manufacturing line (a bit like Ford and Aston Martin ?). Just because the C1 is within a major manufacturer's domain doesn't mean the price will automatically be within everyone's grasp, especially if there is a desire not to compromise on detail and quality.

Ian,

 

don't confuse quality of assembly with higher specification when it comes to an individual car manufacturer. They don't adjust manufacturing tolerances for different vehicles, especially where more than one model is produced on the same production line, using robot or human assembly processes.There may well be a difference between manufacturers, or occasionally some models within the same brand (e.g. Audi A1 or the very specialist R8).

 

Interesting that you mention hand built, whereas some years ago it was all about the accuracy of robot construction and the inconsistency of their human counterparts. 

 

The comparison with the car industry is interesting but largely invalid, other than the Railroad (low specification economy car) or limited edition commissioned models (high specification, low volume, high price, "luxury" car). In the car market the former is bought by the price conscious "need a car" purchaser where practicality and low cost are the main factors, the latter by the "I want comfort/performance, I can afford it, I want to be associated with the brand image" buyer.

 

The problem for Hornby and Bachmann is creating the tiered levels of products/pricing while getting the buyers to understand what they are doing with the quality/specification/price balance. From this and other threads it seems that is a difficult task, not helped by a sceptical view help by some of their motives.

 

Jol

[coachmann]

Morning

 

Would it be possible to have some confirmation on which tenders are with which models. As I can see it, there are two tenders being produced. One is the type 251 is preserved with, and has hand cutouts in the tender.

IMG_6536.jpg

 

The other tender is this type:

IMG_6537.jpg

 

Now a member from Locomotion posted photos and showed the above tender with the BR version, however on Locomotion's own website we see the BR version actually has the earlier tender with cut outs. 

http://www.locomotionmodels.com/british-model-railways/oo-gauge-4mm/nrm-exclusive-editions-and-collection/bachmannnrm-exclusive-ivatt-c1-atlantic-br-black-deposit.htm

 

Does this mean that the tender without cutouts as shown in my second photo is to be grouped with the LNER version?

 

I should add the photos I have added are all over 75 years old, so are now out of copyright.

62822, the BR model with British Ralways on the Tender has the correct cut outs on the Tender. 62885 was another in the same livery but no smokebox plate.

[Guest 2750]

62822, the BR model with British Ralways on the Tender has the correct cut outs on the Tender. 62885 was another in the same livery but no smokebox plate.

 

Thanks Larry, this post confused me from yesterday, showing the BR version with no cut outs

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88328-Bachmann-nrmlocomotionmodelscom-gnr-ivatt-c1/?p=1532281

 

....I'm guessing this is actually the LNER version. I'm guessing later releases will include an apple green one with tender cut outs. York had two C1s, and mine will be 4424.

[Guest spet0114]

Pretty much any model railway spending is in the luxury/leisure category. It is all optional and through choice.

 

The previous NRM special, the GCR 9J (J11) was clearly underpriced as some people bought them up just to sell them on at a profit.

 

How soon will it be after the release that the first GNR 251 appears on ebay at a vastly inflated price?

 

So why should such profits go into the hands of private moneygrabbing individuals rather than the manufacturers and the NRM, who have done all the work?

 

Yes the price has gone up but such models are still extremely good value.

Sorry, the GCR J11 wasn't an NRM one - it was a Bachmann Collectors Club exclusive.  However, your basic point still stands....

[The Stationmaster]

My only gripe with Hornby's Star are the horizontal moulded on cab hand rails which make them look like little wings. Hornby fixed the wrong number of spokes problem.

 

The Star makes a good comparison with the C1, being similar in size and complexity. I am pretty certain that both went through the same amount of R&D and will have similar development costs.

 

The Hornby model boasts a 5 pole skew wound motor (which the C1 certainly will not have as Bachmann are always 3 pole motors), sprung buffers, lots of seperately fitted cab detail and detail between the forward frames. 

Indeed studying the photos posted so far of the C1, I can clearly see the tender brake shoes are not in line with the wheels and that the tender coal rails have the gaps filled. Of course this is an EP so....  and to be honest, I'm not too bothered if this is how actual model will turn out.

 

Therefore if the Bachmann C1 boasts a hole series of improvements over a Hornby Star, I will be glad to hear it. But I think the Star is overall a very good model practically on a par with the C1 from what I have seen so far.

 

Does any one know if the C1 will have sprung buffers? (I ask because City of Truro does not but then its shanks are rather narrow).

I've not only seen the Steam version of the Hornby 'Star' I've got one, wrong bogie wheels an'all (and an apology from Steam for that error) and yesterday I had a good look at the EP for GNR 251.  My opinion, strictly a personal one but based on what I saw is that Bachmann have gone several steps further in separate fitted detail on the C1 than Hornby did on the 'Star' - the horizontal handrail on the cab side sheet being a particular case in point.   I sat looking at the back end of the EP tender a few inches in front of me directly comparing it with a view of the real one just outside and it matched - and of course the tender coal rails have some of the gaps filled in, the real one has!  

 

The EP has moulded buffers (the shanks and housings are very thin), the ones on the tender match the ones on the real engine; I didn't check out the other end.  If you want spring buffers you're welcome to pay the extra - and pick up the cost of the springs which go pinging off around the factory during assembly and have to be replaced in order to finish assembling that part.

 

Incidentally Graham Hubbard wasn't absolutely sure of the exact number of separate parts which will go into each model but it is in excess of 300 all of which have to be assembled by people - that is where the labour cost comes in and I don't think I need labour (sorry) that point except to mention (again) some quite staggering numbers which I was given about pay rate changes in China since Bachmann entered the UK market. Apart from all the other increase in costs higher wages alone go a very long way to explaining rising prices especially where a lot of hand assembly is involved.

 

But I am aware that there has been some keen negotiating to keep the retail price (just) under £180 but as I was expecting it to be a lot closer to £200 I for one am reasonably happy and no doubt Mrs Stationmaster will be equally happy (I hope) to pay for my 251 as a Christmas present for me.  All being well and if you order in time, (production slots are booked to enable it to happen) models of 251 should be available before Christmas according to Locomotion.

 

As far as all the talk about 'limited edition' is concerned the simple fact is that the C1s are exclusive (to the NRM) editions and there has been no mention at all of any of them being 'limited' other than has been postulated in this thread.  It was made very clear by Brian Greenwood at the launch yesterday that they are 'exclusive' and the Locomotion Models website - which I have just checked - also shows them as 'exclusive' (to the NRM), not as 'limited editions'.

[The Stationmaster]

There are people on this forum who have been in the game as it were for many years, in fact I was reading articles and books some  were writing about model and prototype railways back in the 1970s and 80s. There's therefore a wealth of knowledge going here about this particular loco which I feel can be trusted, and what's been said about the engineering samples has been very positive. In fact the samples have been photographed standing on the actual loco itself - very easy to compare the details! So it looks like an absolutely spot on model, from what we've been shown. And presumably the requirements of the NRM, a first class museum, will have ensured that.  So plenty of reasons to believe this will be an excellent model.

 

It was very interesting yesterday to talk to the man who has done the design and technical development of the model and to have the chance to look through Bachmann's two research files for  both 251 and the class itself.  This is something we rarely get a chance to see and if this particular example is typical they clearly go to a lot of effort to tap as many original source documents as they can plus assembling a good library of photographs and tracking of variations.

 

I understand they also had some assistance and information from 'outside' - as is the case with at least some other manufacturers/commissioners - and all of this is part of their effort to try to get things as 'right' as they can.  My only 'complaint' was that they were not prepared to say which other locos etc were covered by their current stock of such files and information   (but two classes in particular were ruled out, one being the Q6 , the other was not (L)NER ).

[Guest 2750]

It was very interesting yesterday to talk to the man who has done the design and technical development of the model and to have the chance to look through Bachmann's two research files for  both 251 and the class itself.  This is something we rarely get a chance to see and if this particular example is typical they clearly go to a lot of effort to tap as many original source documents as they can plus assembling a good library of photographs and tracking of variations.

 

I understand they also had some assistance and information from 'outside' - as is the case with at least some other manufacturers/commissioners - and all of this is part of their effort to try to get things as 'right' as they can.  My only 'complaint' was that they were not prepared to say which other locos etc were covered by their current stock of such files and information   (but two classes in particular were ruled out, one being the Q6 , the other was not (L)NER ).

Hi Mike

 

Anything about the exact tenders with each loco, as mentioned further up this page.

[teaky]

The Stationmaster states: "It was made very clear by Brian Greenwood at the launch yesterday that they are 'exclusive' and the Locomotion Models website - which I have just checked - also shows them as 'exclusive' (to the NRM), not as 'limited editions'."

 

The "limited editions" comments may have arisen following Ian Hargreaves statement in post 376: "Totally exclusive....and when they're gone,they're gone. You want one?  Don't hang about."

 

Perhaps someone in the know could clarify please just to draw a line under this aspect of the debate.

 

As far as I'm concerned, it looks great and I've ordered one.

[Ian Hargrave]

 

 

I think my point are being missed understood. I am not whinging about the prices , excess profit levels, quality or anything else. The result of this is :-
 
 
The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.

If you really think that,you are not constructing a cogent argument and it is difficult to understand what it is you are trying to say.There is little evidence of profiteering in this small trade...because Bachmann is in no sense a multi - national.What evidence do you have that this level is unsustainable....do you actually have figures to support this assertion? Or is this a bit of crystal gazing?
Please remember that what you post is read by others and is potentially damaging,causing doubt and loss of confidence.
Do you really want to be without the cutting edge quality of the last decade.? I believe not.Do you want the role of the prophet of doom? Because on present showing Mick....you got the job

[Ian Hargrave]

I believe that remark was directed at someone who has helped a bit behind the scenes on this model - and probably got at least two free cups of coffee for his efforts - and naturally relished seeing the model launched yesterday. Enthusiasm is not always popular, it seems.

Great sandwiches and wraps....great hospitality....good conversation...but I can dispel the myth that H.M. cracked a bottle of champagne over the C1 or that Mike and I consumed it on the footplate of 251 later.

[31A]

Morning

 

Would it be possible to have some confirmation on which tenders are with which models. As I can see it, there are two tenders being produced. One is the type 251 is preserved with, and has hand cutouts in the tender.

IMG_6536.jpg

 

The other tender is this type:

IMG_6537.jpg

 

Now a member from Locomotion posted photos and showed the above tender with the BR version, however on Locomotion's own website we see the BR version actually has the earlier tender with cut outs. 

http://www.locomotionmodels.com/british-model-railways/oo-gauge-4mm/nrm-exclusive-editions-and-collection/bachmannnrm-exclusive-ivatt-c1-atlantic-br-black-deposit.htm

 

Does this mean that the tender without cutouts as shown in my second photo is to be grouped with the LNER version?

 

I should add the photos I have added are all over 75 years old, so are now out of copyright.

I don't think it's fair to categorise the different types of tender as 'early' or 'late' particularly depending on hand hold cut outs (or other features) - I think it's more that some locos had one type while others had the other, both of which were used throughout the 'Atlantic's' careers (and no doubt they got swapped around between locos during their lives).  I used to know more about this than I do now, having several GN locos in my '1930s' collection, but I'm afraid I've forgotten most of what I knew!  I was having a quick look at 'Locomotives Illustrated' no. 14 last night (appreciate not a lot of people may have that!), and for example 1401 pictured at Nottingham Victoria, said to be 'about 1923' but with the loco in GN livery, has a tender with hand hold cutouts, while 1422 photographed at the same place, undated but also in GN livery (but with a GC tank lettered 'L&NER' in the background so presumably around 1923), has a tender with no hand holds.  It's as ever, a question of finding a picture (or other record) of the loco at the time you want the model to represent, and using that.

[Guest 2750]

I don't think it's fair to categorise the different types of tender as 'early' or 'late' particularly depending on hand hold cut outs (or other features) 

 

Hi Steve, Forgive me, I used the word earlier in that 251 had that type when new, I wasn't trying to state that other tender is a later type, as you say if you look at 1930s photographs, there is a real mix. My point I'm trying to get to is which tender does the LNER type have...... The photograph of the sample with no hand cut outs states that it's the BR type, but this can't be right looking at the real BR version which has cut outs.

 

I can only model two, 4447 or 4424. 4447 would require heavy mods as it has cut down fittings, and has a cut out tender. 4424 has the tender with no cut outs.

 

Apologies for my ramberlings.

[t-b-g]

Sorry, the GCR J11 wasn't an NRM one - it was a Bachmann Collectors Club exclusive.  However, your basic point still stands....

 

Just testing! I should know..... I have one!

[Ryde-on-time]

I think my point are being missed understood. I am not whinging about the prices , excess profit levels, quality or anything else. The result of this is :-

 

 

The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.

After reading your post I was disappointed to find that Hattons haven't got a closing down sale on. Perhaps that's only your opinion and not a fact?

 

I'll have to pay a fair price for models a while longer 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Ryde-on-time

[Paul Cram]

Hattons are closing down?

[Ryde-on-time]

Hattons are closing down?

Sorry, they definitely are not, have edited post

[Mod4]

After reading your post I was disappointed to find that Hattons have got a closing down sale on. Perhaps that's only your opinion and not a fact?

 

I'll have to pay a fair price for models a while longer 

 

I am pretty certain that the word 'not' was missed between the 'have' and 'got' so please take some good advice and 'Don''t Panic' 

[S.A.C Martin]

After reading your post I was disappointed to find that Hattons haven't got a closing down sale on.

 

Hattons are closing down?

 

I know, that post confused me too initally. Not really a very helpful comment (though I would say the poster did not intend it to confuse as such).

[JSpencer]

I've not only seen the Steam version of the Hornby 'Star' I've got one, wrong bogie wheels an'all (and an apology from Steam for that error) and yesterday I had a good look at the EP for GNR 251.  My opinion, strictly a personal one but based on what I saw is that Bachmann have gone several steps further in separate fitted detail on the C1 than Hornby did on the 'Star' - the horizontal handrail on the cab side sheet being a particular case in point.   I sat looking at the back end of the EP tender a few inches in front of me directly comparing it with a view of the real one just outside and it matched - and of course the tender coal rails have some of the gaps filled in, the real one has!  

 

The EP has moulded buffers (the shanks and housings are very thin), the ones on the tender match the ones on the real engine; I didn't check out the other end.  If you want spring buffers you're welcome to pay the extra - and pick up the cost of the springs which go pinging off around the factory during assembly and have to be replaced in order to finish assembling that part.

 

Incidentally Graham Hubbard wasn't absolutely sure of the exact number of separate parts which will go into each model but it is in excess of 300 all of which have to be assembled by people - that is where the labour cost comes in and I don't think I need labour (sorry) that point except to mention (again) some quite staggering numbers which I was given about pay rate changes in China since Bachmann entered the UK market. Apart from all the other increase in costs higher wages alone go a very long way to explaining rising prices especially where a lot of hand assembly is involved.

 

But I am aware that there has been some keen negotiating to keep the retail price (just) under £180 but as I was expecting it to be a lot closer to £200 I for one am reasonably happy and no doubt Mrs Stationmaster will be equally happy (I hope) to pay for my 251 as a Christmas present for me.  All being well and if you order in time, (production slots are booked to enable it to happen) models of 251 should be available before Christmas according to Locomotion.

 

As far as all the talk about 'limited edition' is concerned the simple fact is that the C1s are exclusive (to the NRM) editions and there has been no mention at all of any of them being 'limited' other than has been postulated in this thread.  It was made very clear by Brian Greenwood at the launch yesterday that they are 'exclusive' and the Locomotion Models website - which I have just checked - also shows them as 'exclusive' (to the NRM), not as 'limited editions'.

Thanks Stationmaster.

 

Concerning coal rails, from my very limited collection of pics, they seem to be open in the early days and filled in later but as I said before it is not something I'm bothered about.

 

On the subject of wives, mine recently brought me a 1941 Bren Machine gun (far more expensive than all 3 C1s put togethor) for my birthday, so sure some wives are prepared to buy their husbands nice expensive presents that serve absolutely no purpose in the house hold, but many/most are probably not and will quickly point out how something else would be better instead. (I did not win the argument to buy a jeep!).

 

Thank you very much for the info and photos.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike

 

Anything about the exact tenders with each loco, as mentioned further up this page.

I understand there are differences between the tenders but I do not know any detail about that nor did I look at them closely other than the tender with the model of 251.  My pics of the models in the display case were taken from a distance and are not very clear but there appear to be some detail differences on the tenders and there was a tender on its own without a loco but it seems to have the cutouts at the front.  I think Ben Jones took a number of pictures of the various models with the display case doors open and I presume they are likely to appear in 'Model Rail'?