Bachmann announce 0-6-2T L&NWR Webb Coal Tank

[Merfyn Jones]

The problem seems to be the way the pickups are arranged on this model. Normally Bachmann seem to have them coming down almost vertically from relatively high up on the chassis, however these are much lower down meaning they have a much shallower angle and to get the length for springiness they end up making contact right at the bottom of the wheel except on the leading drivers which are as normal.

 

To rectify it would mean a bit of a re-design, as the contact position is partly as a result of fully representing the firebox on this particular loco.

 

Keith

 

Thank you for the positive comment which should help to rectify the problem if needed when mine arrives.

[coachmann]

I feel sorry for you, actually, wondering why you feel the need to post comments that denigrate most of the people on this forum who are not expert modellers (& without whom production of RTR models would not be financially viable). Not envious at all.

 

Now I have to decide whether to buy one of these models, or wait for a second batch, hoping that Bachmann will have sorted out the problem.

I'm doing very nicely thank you. Those dependent on RTR lay their track all over the shop and very often on SetTrack.  You have completely missed the point in post #591, which translated meant that if a RTR loco will not work for Bachmann's core buyers, then Bachmann clearly has a problem.  

 

 I suggest someone post pictures of the underside of the chassis then those of us with modelling experience might be able to offer some constructive advice, although it could all be a waste of time seeing as some of you have already told us you don't sort things yourselves. Return your models to seller and get refunds.....Bachmann will take notice.......End of story!

Edited May 19, 2017 by coachmann

[Edwardian]

I am not sure why anyone should be chastised for pointing out a potential fault or difficulty that they have experienced.  Given the number and consistency of the posts, it seems to be an entirely genuine issue.

 

If a model cannot negotiate a reasonable selection of standard track, which here seems to include both coarse scale and finescale OO point-work, it can be questioned whether it is fit for purpose as a RTR model.  And, again, I don't see the need to be snide about that.

 

This concerns me. I have an E4, which performed faultlessly in the shop, but which I have nowhere yet to run it again, and am contemplating the Coal Tank at some stage.

 

Faced with the choice of not buying (or, having bought, sending it back), or buying/keeping the loco, my preference would be to buy it/keep it and see if it can be fixed.  I think, though, that either choice should be respected.

 

Has anyone had these issues with the Coal Tank yet managed to resolve them?  

 

Not having experienced the problem, I am not sure what precisely owners are experiencing.  When it is said that the model won't tolerate or negotiate certain track, what exactly is happening?  is this a case of the trailing wheels coming adrift, or are the coupled wheels de-railing?

 

I understand the pick-ups are fouling the points, though the smaller radii seem also to be a problem.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The problem seems to be the way the pickups are arranged on this model. Normally Bachmann seem to have them coming down almost vertically from relatively high up on the chassis, however these are much lower down meaning they have a much shallower angle and to get the length for springiness they end up making contact right at the bottom of the wheel except on the leading drivers which are as normal.

 

To rectify it would mean a bit of a re-design, as the contact position is partly as a result of fully representing the firebox on this particular loco...

 Not least of the aspects of Bach's mechanism design that I value, are the relatively short curved wipers positioned neatly on the rear of the flange, and thus very well concealed, easy to adjust and efficient in action. (Hornby have recently adopted this style, which is progress.)

 

Without having seen the model but based on Melmerby's clear description, it sounds to me that the wipers on the centre and rear coupled wheels need to be arranged so that the fixed point of each wiper is at the bottom, and the curved wiper then goes upwards to make contact on the wheelback well away from any fouling risk on the track, as per usual.

 

...I confess it does make me wonder how much serious testing was carried out at the engineering prototype stage.  I suppose these locos will negotiate toy train pointwork without too much difficulty and that would be the design specification.  BUT - always a BUT, isn't there - the level of detail in these (and most of today's products) would suggest that the design specification should be extended to testing on trackwork laid to tighter standards - perhaps 00SF - as better trackwork is surely what many modellers will lay to match all this better rolling stock...

I would suggest whatever is the most demanding RTR track system available to the target market. Peco 75 probably? Anyone modifying track in any way shape or form from this point, or buying or building and using something more demanding, you are on your own! (And you will have the skills anyway.) I totally agree with the sentiment seen in several posts that in respect of what are fine scale appearance model productions, the ancient OO set track is not of matching standard, and is long past sell by date as the sole yardstick of any model's running performance.

 

My own position is that I don't expect RTR OO to perform out of the box on bespoke copperclad pointwork pieces. The fact that it generally does with very few giving trouble is cause for some gratitude on my part.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The problem seems to be the way the pickups are arranged on this model. Normally Bachmann seem to have them coming down almost vertically from relatively high up on the chassis, however these are much lower down meaning they have a much shallower angle and to get the length for springiness they end up making contact right at the bottom of the wheel except on the leading drivers which are as normal.

 

To rectify it would mean a bit of a re-design, as the contact position is partly as a result of fully representing the firebox on this particular loco.

 

Keith

 

Having just completed the second of my kit built LNWR Coal Tanks (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14518-lnwr-4mm-rolling-stock-for-london-road/) I know fitting pickups around the lower ashpan of the firebox isn't an insurmountable problem.

 

It seems that whoever designed the pickups and whoever signed off the final design either doesn't understand how a model may be used or perhaps they only tested it with Bachmann track which didn't present a problem.

 

The reaction to this issue is interesting. On the one hand people consider  rightly that Bachmann shouldn't release a product which isn't fit for its intended purpose . What is that intended purpose? Do Bachmann intend it should only be used with their track system? That's possible and they equally can't be expected to know what type/standard of trackwork every purchaser may use.

 

On the other hand, people who presumably consider themselves as "modellers" aren't willing/capable of adjusting or modifying the pickups. That is provided that it is reasonably practical, by which i mean can be done with the tools a "modeller" would have to hand.

[melmerby]

I've had a closer look at the loco (still haven't run it yet, as it may have to be returned)

On the other recent Bachmann locos I have bought, 1F tank, Stanier Mogul & E4 the wipers emerge from the chassis at about the 3-4 O'clock/8-9 O'clock position on the wheel and curve around to about 5 O'clock/7 O'clock position so being clear of the railhead.

On the Coal Tank the wipers emerge about 5 O'clock/7 O'clock and curve around to 6 O'clock so being at the bottom of the back of the wheel tyre and so below railhead height.

If you have check rails in a working position on your trackwork, it will foul them.

Bachmann have managed to bring the wipers out higher up on other locos with deep ashpans so why not this one?

 

Keith

[melmerby]

 

On the other hand, people who presumably consider themselves as "modellers" aren't willing/capable of adjusting or modifying the pickups. That is provided that it is reasonably practical, by which i mean can be done with the tools a "modeller" would have to hand.

Depends what you call "modellers" . Some people are rather sniffy if unlike them they don't build their own.

Some build everything they own, others mix and match (Me!) others only buy RTR.

I have a couple of locos which are kitbuilt, the rest are RTR.

Not all of us have the time to build everything from scratch and also get an acceptable result, so RTR is a godsend.

Me? I'm better at the electronics side so am quite prepared to build (and have built) all the occupancy detectors, auto reverse units, boosters etc. for my DCC set up and have time left to play trains with mainly RTR stock.

 

Re Coal Tank: I'm not prepared to hack about (and probably ruin) this rather exquisite model to provide pickups in the appropriate position so it'll probably go back. That's a shame, it is really nice!

 

Note: None of my other locos has a problem with negotiating my "modified" check rails, the only one that originally objected was the Hornby P2 which after easing the drivers out to 14.8 back to back now sails through.

There is only enough room for a modern wheel flange so anything else on the back of the wheel is a no-no.

 

Keith

[Merfyn Jones]

I've had a closer look at the loco (still haven't run it yet, as it may have to be returned)

On the other recent Bachmann locos I have bought, 1F tank, Stanier Mogul & E4 the wipers emerge from the chassis at about the 3-4 O'clock/8-9 O'clock position on the wheel and curve around to about 5 O'clock/7 O'clock position so being clear of the railhead.

On the Coal Tank the wipers emerge about 5 O'clock/7 O'clock and curve around to 6 O'clock so being at the bottom of the back of the wheel tyre and so below railhead height.

If you have check rails in a working position on your trackwork, it will foul them.

Bachmann have managed to bring the wipers out higher up on other locos with deep ashpans so why not this one?

 

Keith

 

Thank you Keith, I now know exactly what will need doing.

[cctransuk]

Re Coal Tank: I'm not prepared to hack about (and probably ruin) this rather exquisite model to provide pickups in the appropriate position so it'll probably go back. That's a shame, it is really nice!

 

I think that you are overstating the case by implying that you have to be capable of scratchbuilding in order to tweak pick-ups.

 

I don't have a Coal Tank but, from what I've read, the pickups are making contact with the back of the flange rather than the back of the wheel itself.

 

Surely all that is required is a slight upward adjustment of around one millimeter to correct this? A pair of tweezers or fine-nosed pliers should achieve this with no problems.

 

Pick-ups can get out of alignment on the best-run model railways - what do you do then?

 

Depriving yourself of a desireable model, just because the most minor of adjustments is required, seems to be taking 'box-opening' to the extreme !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Legend]

This "modellers" v those that just buy RTR thing is completely irrelevant. There are plenty of both, either approach is OK . Neither side should antagonise the other.

 

However the model should be fit for purpose. I would submit that code 100 track is still pretty much the standard. I think it's fair to say that it could be anticipated that many of these locos would run on Settrack and indeed that Bachmann should design it that way. Statements like "not suitable for less than 2nd radius" actually infer that it will run on Settrack 2nd radius and above. So I think something has gone wrong here.

 

It is puzzling why this was not picked up on development. By comparison if you look at Hornby Engine Shed you see them running new stock round test ovals and through points. If Bachmann had done the same thing wouldn't that have shown problem?

 

That said Bachmann are usually pretty responsive on such things , so I'd give them a chance to sort it out. Is it just a tweak to pick ups or is there something fundamentally wrong in design that can't be corrected easily.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Legend

[cctransuk]

This "modellers" v those that just buy RTR thing is completely irrelevant. There are plenty of both, either approach is OK . Neither side should antagonise the other.

 

However the model should be fit for purpose. I would submit that code 100 track is still pretty much the standard. I think it's fair to say that it could be anticipated that many of these locos would run on Settrack and indeed that Bachmann should design it that way. Statements like "not suitable for less than 2nd radius" actually infer that it will run on Settrack 2nd radius and above. So I think something has gone wrong here.

 

It is puzzling why this was not picked up on development. By comparison if you look at Hornby Engine Shed you see them running new stock round test ovals and through points. If Bachmann had done the same thing wouldn't that have shown problem?

 

That said Bachmann are usually pretty responsive on such things , so I'd give them a chance to sort it out. Is it just a tweak to pick ups or is there something fundamentally wrong in design that can't be corrected easily.

 

I'm not questioning the right of anyone to return a model that is in any way sub-standard.

 

I was just surprised in this case by the statement that "Re Coal Tank: I'm not prepared to hack about (and probably ruin) this rather exquisite model to provide pickups in the appropriate position so it'll probably go back. That's a shame, it is really nice!" ; tweaking pick-ups can hardly be described as "... to hack about ..."!

 

Each to their own - I suppose it depends on how much you really want a Coal Tank.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[coachmann]

Just popped in for a cuppa hoping to see photos of the chassis, which of course would be worth a thousand words. I think I grasp Melmerby's explanation though.  I am taking a particular interest in this thread for good reason, as I sense a fundamental flaw.

Edited May 19, 2017 by coachmann

[Penlan]

 That's a shame, it is really nice!" ; tweaking pick-ups can hardly be described as "... to hack about ..."!

I think that depends on your skill level... 

[AMJ]

BR one now at home, first impression is a very good model.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Depends what you call "modellers" . Some people are rather sniffy if unlike them they don't build their own.

Some build everything they own, others mix and match (Me!) others only buy RTR.

I have a couple of locos which are kitbuilt, the rest are RTR.

Not all of us have the time to build everything from scratch and also get an acceptable result, so RTR is a godsend.

Me? I'm better at the electronics side so am quite prepared to build (and have built) all the occupancy detectors, auto reverse units, boosters etc. for my DCC set up and have time left to play trains with mainly RTR stock.

 

Re Coal Tank: I'm not prepared to hack about (and probably ruin) this rather exquisite model to provide pickups in the appropriate position so it'll probably go back. That's a shame, it is really nice!

 

Note: None of my other locos has a problem with negotiating my "modified" check rails, the only one that originally objected was the Hornby P2 which after easing the drivers out to 14.8 back to back now sails through.

There is only enough room for a modern wheel flange so anything else on the back of the wheel is a no-no.

 

Keith

 

Keith,

 

I don't regard myself as a modeller but as a model maker. For me that distinction simply identifies those that prefer to create their own models, be it scratch built, kit built, kit bashed or RTR modified. Ultimately it becomes a question of choosing your own destiny, rather than others defining it for you on by deciding what to produce. 

 

I find it slightly odd that people will build baseboards, scenery, install wiring, etc. and then limit themselves to buying what the RTR manufacturers produce to run on their layouts. If you are lucky you can get a representative collection of models to cover a period/location. However, if you want to model - with reasonable accuracy - early  grouping or pre-grouping early, then you can't get enough from the RTR manufacturers.

 

Your comment that you will probably return the Coal Tank is enlightening. As a member of the LNWR Society, I know that some members hope that the introduction of the Coal Tank would generate more interest among railway modellers in the LNWR. Perhaps people are generally buying it simply because it is an "unusual" model and they have no real interest in the LNWR or pre-group railways.

 

Jol

[melmerby]

Maybe I'm overstating what needs to be done but I'm not so sure that just bending the pickup upwards would leave it in a reliable pickup position on the wheel.

I have tweaked Bachmann pickups in the past as quite often they don't make good contact but there seems to be less room for manoeuvre here

Maybe if someone else has a look & a tweak it would help?

 

Unfortunately at the moment I haven't got a great deal of time to "faff" about!

 

Keith

Edited May 19, 2017 by melmerby

[amdaley]

I bought one of these & I can see where there might be problems with the pickups.

I also think it may be difficult to adjust them because of the way they are fitted.

 

I have run it on a rolling road & its fine but I run DCC & don't have a decoder for the loco.

I have ordered a decoder & will have to wait to fit it before testing it on the layout.

I did push it gently through some points & didn't find any tight spots but will have to wait for the decoder to see how it actually runs under power.

A fine looking loco. 

[rembrow]

A couple of photos of the underside of the Webb Tank I've just picked up from the shop. I can see the problem, in that the pick-ups on the main drivers are low down. They also dont have any spare length in them as the lower plate is low down on the wheels and the pick-ups come out from that plate. This could be where the desire to hide the pick-ups around the circumference of the wheel has been the downfall, as a straight pick-up to the side of the wheel would hardly be noticed through the wheels. There doesn't seem to be any spare rim to be able to tweak the pick-ups to a slightly higher position. I haven't tested mine yet, straight out the box to be photographed.

Edited May 19, 2017 by rembrow

[stock_2007]

My loco is still in the post so I've never ran it, but will the whole batch have this running problem? I'm only going from what people in the know are saying but would the sellers in my case 'Rail's' take the item back? I still have nightmares about my two Heljan class 17's

[coachmann]

Just a simple idea....

Edited May 19, 2017 by coachmann

[Trains4U]

I have yet to see one of these in the flesh, so to speak (Work keeps me away from the shop during the week)

 

But is it potentially possible to turn the pickup plate upside down, so the wipers point upwards?  - is it even possible that it has been fitted upside down in the factory?

 

I'll take a look at one tomorrow to see what is possible - I'm just wondering if it is a relatively simple adjustment, or something more complex.

[phil-b259]

My loco is still in the post so I've never ran it, but will the whole batch have this running problem? I'm only going from what people in the know are saying but would the sellers in my case 'Rail's' take the item back? I still have nightmares about my two Heljan class 17's

 

Rails (of Sheffield) like all internet retailers are legally obliged to take back any merchandise ordered online for up to 2 weeks after it has arrived at the purchasers address.

 

If the return is due to the merchandise being faulty (note this is not the same thing as being badly designed) then the retailer is legally bound to refund the return postage costs*. However if the return is due to the purchaser no longer wanting the item due to them not liking it, it not fitting correctly (e.g. clothes) or the overall design not suiting the purchasers requirements, then cost of return postage is legally down to the purchaser to pay.

 

Thus if you wish to return the Coal tank to rails then you have the legal right to do so - see here (under "Order Cancellation Policy")  https://railsofsheffield.com/terms-and-conditions for details. You will however have to pay return postage costs as the location of the pickups is best described as a design flaw that went unnoticed (which is not covered by the relevant legislation unless it is a safety issue of completely prevents the item being used), rather than a fault that occurred during manufacture.

 

 

 

*(assuming the purchaser uses the preferred service - i.e. if the retailer specifies 2nd class postage then that is all they have to refund regardless of whether the purchaser pays for that or the more expensive guaranteed next day option)

[Trains4U]

OK, scrap that - its clearly shaped to the lower third of the wheels - but I'll take the baseplate off one tomorrow and have a peek at possible remedies

[cctransuk]

Just a simple idea....

WEB Coal Tank pick ups.jpg

 

Now Larry; you're assuming that we're all scratchbuilders - you can't expect mere mortals to "hack" their shiny new toys !!

 

If I had a use for a Coal Tank, it would already be looking remarkably like your sketch.

 

On the other hand - if the box-shifters find themselves with an embarrassment of returned Coal Tanks, I'll take one off their hands - 58900 please !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[coachmann]

I notice the Coal Tank arrangement is nothing new and is on the elderly Bachmann GWR 57XX (below), the difference being the low ashpan on the Coal Tank has thrown them rather low.  I will recieve the BR version Coal Tank tomorrow and it probably won't show up any problems on my curves...