Bachmann announce 0-6-2T L&NWR Webb Coal Tank

[melmerby]

A couple of photos of the underside of the Webb Tank I've just picked up from the shop. I can see the problem, in that the pick-ups on the main drivers are low down. They also dont have any spare length in them as the lower plate is low down on the wheels and the pick-ups come out from that plate. This could be where the desire to hide the pick-ups around the circumference of the wheel has been the downfall, as a straight pick-up to the side of the wheel would hardly be noticed through the wheels. There doesn't seem to be any spare rim to be able to tweak the pick-ups to a slightly higher position. I haven't tested mine yet, straight out the box to be photographed.

Straight across the back of the wheel to the other side of the wheel rim would do the job ( as pointed out by Larry) but at the expense of being visible through the spokes.

 

Again most of the Bachmann locos I have use the same arrangement as the Coal Tank but they all start higher up!

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

I notice the Coal Tank arrangement is nothing new and is on the elderly Bachmann GWR 57XX (below), the difference being the low ashpan on the Coal Tank has thrown them rather low.  I will recieve the BR version Coal Tank tomorrow and it probably won't show up any problems on my curves... 

 

WEB Bachmann pick ups 1.jpg

The Jinty has the same arrangement as the 57xx. The pick-ups finish about in line with the brake rods so are well above rail level.

[melmerby]

The Jinty has the same arrangement as the 57xx. The pick-ups finish about in line with the brake rods so are well above rail level.

As do the other Bachmann locos I have, so I wonder why have they ended up so low on this model?

There must be a way to fit them as on their other 6 coupled locos.

Bachmann have been making good reliable 6 coupled chassis for years without a problem.

 

Keith

[adb968008]

This was how the problem was solved in the past.

[phil-b259]

As do the other Bachmann locos I have, so I wonder why have they ended up so low on this model?

 

Because the chaises / keeper plate is so low at that point - have a look at the photos already posted. While I am a bit of a ludite with terminology and indeed the coal tanks overall design, its obvious that the large black lump in the chassis extends down quite a bit lower than on other designs in the vicinity of 2 out of the 3 coupled wheelsets, thus forcing the pickups to be mounted lower too. If you look closely, the one coupled wheelset not under the black lump has the more usual pickup arrangement thus keeping them clear of the bottom of the wheel.

 

As has been noted a simple tweak to the alignment of the pickup strip (i.e. having them horizontal on the affected wheels or even pointing upwards would have done the trick and I suspect its simply something that got overlooked during design and it should be relatively easy to modify the design if Bachmann produce further batches in future

[cctransuk]

Because the chaises / keeper plate is so low at that point - have a look at the photos already posted. While I am a bit of a ludite with terminology and indeed the coal tanks overall design, its obvious that the large black lump in the chassis extends down quite a bit lower than on other designs in the vicinity of 2 out of the 3 coupled wheelsets, thus forcing the pickups to be mounted lower too. If you look closely, the one coupled wheelset not under the black lump has the more usual pickup arrangement thus keeping them clear of the bottom of the wheel.

 

As has been noted a simple tweak to the alignment of the pickup strip (i.e. having them horizontal on the affected wheels or even pointing upwards would have done the trick and I suspect its simply something that got overlooked during design and it should be relatively easy to modify the design if Bachmann produce further batches in future

 

I have to wonder why the ashpan was not incorporated with the keeper-plate - so that the pick-ups could be at the normal level and sandwiched between the chassis and the keeper-plate.

 

Perhaps I'm being too simplistic?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Because the chaises / keeper plate is so low at that point - have a look at the photos already posted. While I am a bit of a ludite with terminology and indeed the coal tanks overall design, its obvious that the large black lump in the chassis extends down quite a bit lower than on other designs in the vicinity of 2 out of the 3 coupled wheelsets, thus forcing the pickups to be mounted lower too. If you look closely, the one coupled wheelset not under the black lump has the more usual pickup arrangement thus keeping them clear of the bottom of the wheel.

 

As has been noted a simple tweak to the alignment of the pickup strip (i.e. having them horizontal on the affected wheels or even pointing upwards would have done the trick and I suspect its simply something that got overlooked during design and it should be relatively easy to modify the design if Bachmann produce further batches in future

Perhaps the small diameter wheels  dictated the lower level of the "motor block" and this caused the error with the pickups.

 

Still, there is no real excuse for getting it wrong, especially for a commercial organisation that employs professional designers. Mind you, it wouldn't be the first time, look at Honda and their F1 engine. It must be something to do with far eastern culture.

[1BCamden]

All I can say is thank you, I've been off line for a couple of days at work, and revisited this thread expecting to read nothing of note, well I'll never assume that here again. For me this problem would have remained hidden for a least two to three years, I've already received the LNWR version, I checked out the flange depth to chair height clearance (code 83 Tillig Elite) 0.5mm, took a couple of stripped down photos for future improvements and DCC install reference, all good, missed the pick up conflict issue completely. Catalogued and repackaged it, as the layout construction phase (no matter how tempting) is no placed for your rostered allocation.

Bachmann have worked hard ensuring good power pick with six points covered, while ensuring each pick up arm is hidden, however this has resulted in the actual contact dimple being lower on the tyre circumstance, effectively reducing the B2B clearance, and its ability to clear check rails (standard or finescale) etc.

When I receive my LMS version, I intend to check the factory B2B clearances, something normally carried out much later in my world, strip it down and flatten out the four (only) problem contact dimples, failing this repunch contact dimples above the check rail height, and remove the excess pick up arm below this new contact dimples and retest and let you guys in on the findings, don't hold your breath.

This thread catch up has been a great informative read, where modellers and model makers discuss their common interest, without personal agenda or attack (did I say that out loud) to progress this life interest forward for the benefit of us all.

I do however think we are kidding ourselves if we believe that we could place a model (kit build or ready to run) on our layout for the first time and expect it to perform flawlessly. Whether due to our own track laying, design or model making skills, our attention to that all important critical detail, or the manufactures ability to address the buying publics every need, including as stated many times on the forum "What's taking them so long" and demand.

I don't believe there is one person on this site who has never stripped down a model (RTR, new, used or kit) to repair, replace or improve some aspect of that model in an effort to make it our own, this issue is nothing new, once identified, as stated by somebody earlier, we can fix it, or get it fixed.

Thanks again for finding this early, for all and for Bachmann so they can reset their QC and design criteria envelop around this possibly expensive design oversight.

 

Just because, here is a basic as received arrangement photo, very tidy, apologies for the photo quality, and no pick up detail, and yes that is pre coloured tillig elite rail in the background

Edited May 20, 2017 by 1BCamden

[melmerby]

Perhaps the small diameter wheels  dictated the lower level of the "motor block" and this caused the error with the pickups.

Only slightly smaller than a 57XX - 4' 5½" against 4' 7½" a difference of less than 1mm in 00 which mean less than ½mm axle height

 

Keith

[coachmann]

The body-off shot by 1BCamden is useful as it looks like the cab floor will need to be cut away to clear a speaker and stay-alive. I am assuming the tanks are filled with mazak weight, but I'll find out later today.

[Trains4U]

I've had a look and there is no simple tweak to be done.

 

 

Saying that I've had one running round the layout and is traversing PECO streamline and setrack code 100 points with no issues whatsoever

[tractionman]

I've had a look and there is no simple tweak to be done.

 

 

Saying that I've had one running round the layout and is traversing PECO streamline and setrack code 100 points with no issues whatsoever

My LNWR version likewise runs fine on my Peco track, despite the fact it's just temporarily laid on boards and somewhat uneven!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited May 20, 2017 by tractionman

[johnd]

Coachman isn't the Coal Tank all ready for a speaker the bunker space already wired for one.

[BlackRat]

I've tweaked quite a few Bachman pickups, and a few Heljan ones to (Teddy Bear).

 

I've always found the easiest way, probably the only way (?) is to remove the wheel sets first.

 

Neither difficult or onerous, but it does need a bit of confidence, which not everyone has.

 

Years ago, all rtr was expected to run on set track ......often 1st radius curves .....laid on top of a thick pile carpet.

 

We can't expect modern hi Fi models to do the same......can we?

[Ian Hargrave]

I've had a look and there is no simple tweak to be done.

 

 

Saying that I've had one running round the layout and is traversing PECO streamline and setrack code 100 points with no issues whatsoever

 

Thank you for that Gareth...particularly the reference to the points.My own layout is similarly constructed.

[coachmann]

Coachman isn't the Coal Tank all ready for a speaker the bunker space already wired for one.

I have no idea at the moment John.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I've tweaked quite a few Bachman pickups, and a few Heljan ones to (Teddy Bear).

 

I've always found the easiest way, probably the only way (?) is to remove the wheel sets first...

 

 Yup. Judging from the photographs, a slight shortening of the low hanging pick ups will do the job, probably achieveable by putting a small bend or crimp - to be determined by experiment -  in each of the four. Once the lowest part of the pick up wiper is above the railhead, job's done, and that's very little change in position required.

 

(It's an inept job by the designer and completely unnecessary, a regular flat keeper plate with the wipers arranged ib=n the usual position as seen on the leading wheelset, and a clip on moulded plastic box to represent the ashpan would be one way to do it.)

[Jol Wilkinson]

I've had a look and there is no simple tweak to be done.

 

 

Saying that I've had one running round the layout and is traversing PECO streamline and setrack code 100 points with no issues whatsoever

 

 

My LNWR version likewise runs fine on my Peco track, despite the fact it's just temporarily laid on boards and somewhat uneven!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith 

 

Which may mean that it meets Bachmann's requirements if they perceive that Peco Streamline and Setrack constitutes "normal" 00 trackwork. Looking at the photos of track on the Bachmann website shows generous flangeways compared to "finescale" track, which is where I think problems could arise.

[johnd]

Coach having looked at the comprehensive information sheet supplied under DCC sound it says and I quote use a next 18 sound decoder and a 15x11x9mm speaker. The speaker fitting in the cavity with the contacts facing up. The speaker being of the Sugar Cube variety.

Edited May 20, 2017 by johnd

[coachmann]

Thanks John. I'll have a look when the loco arrives. I am not against cutting away coal plates and boiler backheads (in tank locos) in order to fit larger speakers. Such sins can often be hidden by a loco crew.

[bill badger]

My LMS version arrived with the post this morning. What an exquisite model; certainly up there, in terms of detail and crisp molding, with anything else I own. It seems to run fine on my OO-SF test plank with its B7 crossover; the pickups seem pretty snug into the back of the wheels.

[Merfyn Jones]

Mine just arrived, 7841 was the last to work my branch in 1951, complete with 7A shed plate so nothing except weathering needed.

Tried on the layout and it caught on one place on my check rails (a lot of them on my branch). Removed the keeper plate (6 screws) but found not really needed to so back on. Bend back 2mm on each of the 4 pick ups and tuck them in behind the keeper, then adjust tension. Job done, 10 minutes with small tweezers, running great.

[cctransuk]

Mine just arrived, 7841 was the last to work my branch in 1951, complete with 7A shed plate so nothing except weathering needed.

Tried on the layout and it caught on one place on my check rails (a lot of them on my branch). Removed the keeper plate (6 screws) but found not really needed to so back on. Bend back 2mm on each of the 4 pick ups and tuck them in behind the keeper, then adjust tension. Job done, 10 minutes with small tweezers, running great.

 

Clearly a modeller !! Congratulations.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[bill badger]

Mine just arrived, 7841 was the last to work my branch in 1951, complete with 7A shed plate so nothing except weathering needed.

Tried on the layout and it caught on one place on my check rails (a lot of them on my branch). Removed the keeper plate (6 screws) but found not really needed to so back on. Bend back 2mm on each of the 4 pick ups and tuck them in behind the keeper, then adjust tension. Job done, 10 minutes with small tweezers, running great.

 

After a more thorough test, there were in fact a couple of places the pick-ups were causing tightness on the check rails. Applying this fix has solved it; as Merfyn said - ten minutes & no fuss.

[Hroth]

My LNWR livery Coal Tank arrived this morning.

 

As I don't have any code 75 track, I can't comment on clearances, but it runs very well around the 2nd radius circuit and settrack points of my roundy test layout, both forward and backward.

 

What a brilliant little loco!