Old modeler returning and concerns already

[neilrh]

I'll open with a general Hi to the folks here. I've been out of modeling for many years and am slowly getting back into it - so much has changed since I was a kid! I've spent a few years, reading, researching and learning some new skills, but time has come to get more serious. But first a little history...

 

Over 30 years ago I inherited a fair deal of GW 4mm (OO scale) stock, I say GW but that's not strictly accurate. The locomotives (R-T-R and brass kit) were all professionally finished in GW 1927-33 style, include Hall, Castle and King named locos, then your usual smattering of 14xx, panniers, prairies, 2251 and 2301 classes. The rolling stock is not quite so accurate - main line express are all BR Mk1 in Chocolate and Cream (R-T-R), with a few suburban rakes (2-3 car lengths) in brass more in line with the loco era - though they're heavy meaning longer trains would be outside of the engine haulage capabilities. In the freight department there are many private owner coal wagons (Grandfather was from South Wales, hence the interest), but most of the rest are BR era vans, with a couple of brass "brown cars".

 

General state of the above is: most has been in storage for the whole period, so is probably in questionable condition. Though some was broken out during the mid-90's, mechanically checked out and repaired where needed, but the paint was beginning to chip. Unfortunately I then emigrated to the US, so it was all put back into storage again, and none has been used for the past 15-20 years.

 

On top of this I have my "train set" stuff, which is anything from 1920-1960, steam, diesel, all R-T-R stock. And generally stuff I don't have a great attachment to, though keeping it is not entirely out of the question.

 

Now to my concerns - obviously my location limits what I can lay my hands on easily, and can influence costs. Track is easy (peco is imported here), and there are retailers who import Hornby and Bachmann OO scale supplies. Paint is a problem - humbrol is imported and available, things like railmatch, etc are not (at least as far as I can find), also there are issues with importing from Canada (US customs gets involved where "dangerous chemicals" are in play, yes even acrylics!). Building kits is always possible, though I currently have no experience with brass (but I am sure I will need to learn this skill eventually).

 

Looking at the R-T-R stuff, it is heavily biased to post 1948 BR through modern era, and apart from private owner freight, almost nothing in the '27-33 era that my locomotives are painted in. For practice I've bought a couple of late BR(W) locomotives (once again limited to what was easily accessible in R-T-R form), to learn about DCC and practice layout assembly skills with - I've considered moving my era of choice to '38-42, which would allow me to eventually modify these with the later GWR logo, and claim them as austerity colour scheme. This choice would entail modifying the paint scheme of some locomotives to either roundel or G(crest)W/GWR finish. But still doesn't seem to improve on my choices for passenger vehicles. Which then opens up the possible choice of going fully to mid-late 50's, locos would still need logo modification (the last of the 2301's were being retired, but would still be accurate era), but authentic new buy rolling stock options would be much improved.

 

Obviously my preference is for a pre-1948 GW era, but I could be persuaded to more strongly consider BR(W) just for the sake of having something that just looks right all around. Reading through past threads on available kits, it appears that more than a few sites no longer exist, or (worryingly to me) haven't been maintained in 2+ years - on top of this I notice the most promising, Comet, is now up for sale, so by the time I start to need (and have funds for) kits, might be challenging to get what I would consider to need.

 

So are my concerns valid? Is the supply of (specifically) realistic GW passenger stock as limited as would appear from my investigations to date, OR are there reliable international suppliers/shippers still out there? And at this time, who (given my initial choice in era) makes brass kits, which are a good starting point to hone my fledgling skills?

 

I hope this was the correct forum for these questions, but I thought I would start here, because, well folks with Great Western interest/expertise probably understand this more than others might.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Neil,

Welcome aboard the forum! I presume that you are still resident in the USA?

While I am 'keen on' the GWR, I'm not immensely knowledgeable about stock/liveries etc, indeed I am trying to learn myself!

However, one way to legitimately run your G W liveried stock with easily available modern RTR coaches (BR Mk1's eg), how about modelling a preserved line? There is a fair old choice nowadays spread all around the country.

Just a thought for you!

Cheers,

John E.

[Spitfire2865]

Well. I can help you with rolling stock. Many kit sellers, and hattons ship to north america. A small kit seller called h&a models ships to the US at decent costs. They sell kits for the major plastic kit manufacturers, cambrian, parkside, slaters, coopercraft. 51L is also very helpful.

Not sure if Im even helping at all, but just because the RTR market neglects what you like, shouldnt mean you cant enjoy it.

My choice of pre36 LMS is very neglected by RTR in terms of stock. All but one of my freight stock is kit built or scratchbuilt.

[County of Yorkshire]

Neil, 

 

Welcome to RMWeb, a veritable moveable feast of knowledge, both prototypical and in model form. Regarding GWR RTR passenger stock, you can't go far wrong by giving the thread in the below link a read - it is a pretty in-depth discussion regarding the relative paucity of pre-nationalisation GWR coaching stock which,as you say, is a pretty big detriment to those looking to model anything like a prototypical pre-1948 passenger set-up. You raise a valid point about suppliers such as Comet; what will we do if their wares - god forbid - cease to be available? 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65827-is-there-a-surprising-lack-of-rtr-gwr-coaches/

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

[brossard]

Obtaining UK stock has never been easier with most retailers shipping here.  I've found Hatton's to be about the best with VAT deduction, prompt order processing and very reasonable shipping.

 

I agree about Comet (Mainly Trains too) but I'm confident that the vacuum will be filled, the products are just too valuable to the hobby.

 

I will add this link to BRMNA:  http://www.brmna.org/index.html  There is some good info on the free pages.  If you become a member, there's a quarterly journal and member list so you can see who models UK in your area.

 

John

[jcm@gwr]

Hello Neil,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I recommend checking www.gwr.org.uk for info and inspiration.

 

Jeff

[hayfield]

Neilrh

 

Do log on to the UK Ebay site, there you will find guess all the kits and RTR stock you will need. It will also be worthwhile looking at the USA site as you may well find items cheaper and certainly postage will be.

 

If a UK seller does not show overseas posting, drop them a message. Many like me either forget or are too lazy to add overseas selling, but are more than willing providing the buyer pays the additional cost. The GWR modeller is very well catered for now, that's not to say that everything is covered but you do have a better choice than most other regions.

 

Regarding paint, ask the likes of Precision who are their stockists in the USA. For the future of the likes of Comet should be OK now as current suppliers are buying up businesses. Precision being one of them and with the problems dispatching paint perhaps they see diversifying into other areas may make sound business sense. In some-ways the RTR market has never been better 

[Adrian Wintle]

Hi Neil. There are a few of us over here who model pre-war GWR. As you say, the RTR coaching stock is somewhat limited (Hornby long and short clerestories and Hornby Colletts in your period). If you were to move forward to 1936-40 you can add the Hornby B-set and Autocoach and the Bachmann Colletts without having to repaint all your locos - they didn't all get repainted at once. Also, depending on area, there were inter-region workings with other companies' stock - e.g. there was a Bournemouth-Cardiff working which was usually a BTK-TK-FK-TK-BTK set of Southern coaches and there were a lot of workings that were partly or mostly LMS stock.

 

Where in the US are you?

 

Adrian

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Obviously my preference is for a pre-1948 GW era, but I could be persuaded to more strongly consider BR(W) just for the sake of having something that just looks right all around. Reading through past threads on available kits, it appears that more than a few sites no longer exist, or (worryingly to me) haven't been maintained in 2+ years - on top of this I notice the most promising, Comet, is now up for sale, so by the time I start to need (and have funds for) kits, might be challenging to get what I would consider to need.

 

So are my concerns valid? Is the supply of (specifically) realistic GW passenger stock as limited as would appear from my investigations to date, OR are there reliable international suppliers/shippers still out there? And at this time, who (given my initial choice in era) makes brass kits, which are a good starting point to hone my fledgling skills?...

Certainly there is more RTR support for WR in the final decade of steam operation. But there remain plenty of character items with no RTR model, for which you will still be dependent on kits or even your own efforts, so don't let that sway your choice overmuch. Then again, RTR models of the Kerosene Castles are quite likely to join the available models of the strange choices in non-steam traction favoured by Swindon, how powerfully can you resist?

 

I wouldn't worry overmuch about kit availability, even if sources of supply temporarily or permanently depart. There was an old rule that 80% of kits never get built to any extent, and I believe it is as true as ever. For anything not in current production or available from retail stock, put your 'wants' up on modeller sites such as this one, and see what turns up.

[Ravenser]

 

I agree about Comet (Mainly Trains too) but I'm confident that the vacuum will be filled, the products are just too valuable to the hobby.

 

 

 I've just checked Comet's  website as this was news to me , and very sadly there's a note that the proprietor passed away yesterday (Sat 13th) and trading is suspended until after the funeral (It seems more than is decent to ask to expect they will resume trading afterwards)

[neilrh]

Allegheny - The idea of a preservation line did briefly cross my mind, and I could use a feeder line with modern stock. But I think that would be my least preferable compromise.

 

Spitfire - Thanks for the tip, don't think I'd run across Hattons, will need to investigate their offerings when I have a less busy day.

 

County of Yorkshire - Thanks, that is one of the threads of which I familiarized myself with recently, though it appears there's a few more replies since I last looked.

 

Brossard - This looks like it will be worth my time investigating, thanks.

 

JCM - Thanks, outside of my growing library of books, this is probably the GWR website of which I am most familiar.

 

Hayfield & Adrian - nice to know, I have a B-set (from my personal set) and Grandfather had a very heavy autocoach (the 14xx can barely haul it due to the weight!). Also one of our local importers has a limited supply of Bachmann Colletts in a mix of 34-48 logo finishes. Another thought about basing during the war years, is that there is opportunity for visiting rolling stock from the other 3 companies.

 

I'm not entirely concerned with absolute paint colour match, as I've seen suggested that we're talking about 1920-30 dyes, which were more apt to fade - so anything not fresh out of the works would not be entirely true to out of the tin hue (it's related to one of the reasons we ended up with Cream, instead of White). I do, however, wonder if there's a US paint colour equivalent to some of the colours we use (maybe there's something like a 1950's Pontiac Dark Green is the equivalent to Brunswick Green?), about the only British shade of green I've found here is Britich Racing Green.

 

I was aware of some rolling stock not being painted, with examples of post-1942 engines running with Great(Crest)Western, and never receiving the roundel design. There was even a Pannier running in original Brunswick Green/GWR during the early 60's, though it was so dirty it's possible they didn't notice that it wasn't black.

 

And I am now in South Michigan, I did take a long weekend to visit the British Railway Modeling show (or whatever it's name is) back in March. 

 

34 - Good to know, thanks.

 

Ravenser - That is sad, their previous message indicated the sickness was making continuation of the business impossible, I hadn't realized it was quite so serious.

[hayfield]

 

Hayfield & Adrian - nice to know, I have a B-set (from my personal set) and Grandfather had a very heavy autocoach (the 14xx can barely haul it due to the weight!). Also one of our local importers has a limited supply of Bachmann Colletts in a mix of 34-48 logo finishes. Another thought about basing during the war years, is that there is opportunity for visiting rolling stock from the other 3 companies.

 

And I am now in South Michigan, I did take a long weekend to visit the British Railway Modeling show (or whatever it's name is) back in March. 

 

 

 

Neil

 

Sounds like both are the Keyser models. If you rebuild the bogies of the autocoach with pin point bearings and wheels. Or buy a set of RTR replacement bogies, the coach will run freely and the 14xx will have no problems pulling it. You could however replace the motor for a newer can type with a 2 stage gearbox, which will beef it up, providing you have the newer type of plastic spoked wheels

[neilrh]

I believe my b-set is the old airfix set. The autocoach is a metal construct, definitely not etched brass, and just plain heavy. The 14xx while also metal is a very light model, it takes a bit of wheelslip under load to get moving and can slide quite a ways to a stop when you power off. There's a high chance I'll be remotoring many of the old models - and I think some (like the 2301) need new chasis - and a rework in the power pickup to enable conversion to DCC running.

[Adrian Wintle]

The autocoach is almost certainly an old Keyser cast metal kit. Hayfield's comments about rebuilding/replacing the bogies will probably help.

 

If you were at the Great British Train Show then you probably saw me (I was with Bridge Street). You also probably met Pat and David from The British Connection (based in London. Ont) and probably the best local suppler for parts etc.

 

For chocolate and cream I've used the big spray cans of Krylon or Valspar paint - it requires some care as it is easy to get it on too thick and it occasionally reacts with other paints. Krylon Buttercream or Valspar Yellow Cream for cream and Krylon Espresso, Valspar Velvet Brown, or Valspar Java Brown for chocolate are the colours I've used.

 

Adrian

[BR60103]

Neil, I was demo'ing at the GBTS also.  You could check with The British Connection about paint. They're located less than a couple of hours drive from Detroit (once you pass immigration) and you could pick up paint (and other bits) there.

I also have a K's autocoach. Best suggestion for that is to buy an LMS Garratt. I have the tank which came as a partly dismantled model; let me know if you need parts!

[hayfield]

I believe my b-set is the old airfix set. The autocoach is a metal construct, definitely not etched brass, and just plain heavy. The 14xx while also metal is a very light model, it takes a bit of wheelslip under load to get moving and can slide quite a ways to a stop when you power off. There's a high chance I'll be remotoring many of the old models - and I think some (like the 2301) need new chasis - and a rework in the power pickup to enable conversion to DCC running.

 

 

Neil

 

If both kits are made from whitemetal then they are K's (N C  Keyser), If the coach is in Alunimium with cast white metal bogies then its a Westdale. meither way it sounds like the wheels are in bearings. A quick fix is to fit Bachmann/Airfix bogies. Or replace the wheels with some that have pin point axles and fit pinpoint bearings in the side frames, your problem then is stopping it run

 

As for the loco, if its made out of whitemetal then its a K's, if from sheet steel/nickel-silver then its a Jamieson/Eames kit. The latter will be an easier fix as they normally used Romford wheels. The K's will depend on whether its an early kit with metal spoke wheels (these were the better of the two) just make a cradle to hold the motor in place as the wheels do not come apart easily and fit a Romford worm gear. If its the later type with plastic spokes unless you are very lucky you may have to replace them with a set of Markits wheels then you could fit a motor and gear box.

 

You could replace the chassis, Comet being the best but is too long as the K's footplate is too short. An Alan Gibson set of mainframes would work and can be ordered with either holes for axle bearings or hornblock cut-outs. It would be easier to shorten these mainframes to length

[trisonic]

If all else fails take advantage of the fact that you are in the ‘States and model locally. There’s far more to see here than just Class 1 railroads - I have some wonderful shortlines near me.

Frankly some of the more interesting small suppliers in the UK just refuse point blank to ship to the US.

 

Best, Pete.

[neilrh]

I do wonder if the 14xx has a similar problem reported with the new Hornby Industrials, that being 4 driving wheels and light weight. I've seen some folks load up the body with lead shot to increase the weight and positively affect traction. From what I recall of the 14xx the main problem was traction, too much power at the wheels to be practical, once rolling momentum kept things moving right along. But it will be a while before I begin the process of shipping stuff over, so I'm not overly bothered quite yet with existing rolling stock condition. The next step is purchasing lumber and building the benchwork, which should prove to be an adventure in itself, and probably be delayed until after Christmas and Santa woodworking gifts!

 

Thanks for the responses so far, it appears from a deeper analysis of the coaching availability thread, it should be possible for me to select my preferred era, so I'll begin the plans on that premise.

[brossard]

The 14XX is a lovely little loco.  Many, many, many.....years ago I had the Airfix model which never ran properly.  I put a Perserverance chassis under it which was a  transformation.  The new chassis didn't do much for the weight but it was never tasked with much more than an autocoach - the Airfix model IIRC.

 

John

[Jeff Smith]

Neil,

 

PECO is probably your best bet for track but I wondered if you had tried any of your older stock on Code 75 track?  You may find that you need to use Code 100 or possibly face quite a big re-wheeling task!

[neilrh]

Jeff - of the stock I took out of storage in the 90's, only the Hornby Dublo Castle had any issues with Peco 75. The vast majority of my grandfathers stock was white metal or brass, and ran on something pretty much like Romford wheels look today - I'm not sure when he built his locos or how that relates to Romford wheel availability. As far as track is concerned I've found it's surprisingly easy to get Peco 75 track here, though you have to make special orders if you want to buy bulk, or for some of the more unusual items (catch points) from the local stores.

[brossard]

Neil, when I built my friends layout, we found it easy to obtain plain Peco code 75 track over here.  The packs of meter length track are an odd size for the Post Office so I think (and I haven't checked, so I could be talking out of my hat) postage from the UK is a bit steep.  On the other hand, we found the prices for Peco points to be pretty high over here vs the prices at Hatton's.  It's worth checking the differences I think.

 

I did find that a loco with old Romford wheels rode on the chairs of C&L track.  My solution was to turn the flanges using my Dremel and a file.  Markits wheels are finer versions of the Romford range and my preference.

 

John

[Jeff Smith]

Neil - yes, I have ordered Peco 75 plain track from big box internet hobby stores before now - it was on clearance... Until recently I was British P4 all the way but of late I've become hooked on Bachmann On30 and in choosing track it was between Peco O-16.5 and ME On30, I plumped for the latter but points were about the same price, around $25. Keep your eyes on the internet hobby stores as they sometimes have sales. Also Amazon do some Peco.

 

Incidentally, before getting to grips with US 1/48th scale modelling I imagined that for the size of the country there would be masses of cottage industry support, but far from it, there's a fair bit for HO but O scale seems to be mainly Lionel. For my 1920's layout white metal Model T's are the only car kits I can find! Perhaps they were the only cars around then?

[neilrh]

I've checked out the local hobby stores here and while they don't always stock 75 (US preference is 86), because they deal directly with PECO they can order both 75 & 100. So it's no big deal for me to make a large shopping list, and place an order, there's usually a deposit, but you can get a bulk discount and there's no postage involved. Especially good deal for meter long packs, for the odd point or other smaller items, mail order is generally easier and the wait time similar.

[hayfield]

Neil

 

I may have missed the reply, is it a whitemetal loco or a tin/nickel sheet model