Greenpeace stop a coal train with a polar bear in the Retford area

[Rugd1022]

I'll just give a simple, plain answer to your reply - they were trespassing so were putting their lives and those of others in danger, it really is as simple as that. Whether the train was moving or staionary it makes no difference - they should not have been there, period.

 

I shan't say anymore in this thread or I'll end up being barred from the forum.

[DavidH]

Looking at their video evidence they weren't apparently standing in front of the train (unless someone was behind the camera operator). Which suggest that they were (apparently) considering their own safety, and they didn't put anything on the tracks until the train had stopped, so this suggests to me they also were thinking of the train/driver's safety.

 

Was the line a passing loop? It was a double track, as is fairly obvious if you look at the photos. I don't know the line, but if it's goods-only, and only serves the power station (and as for speed there is a "20" restriction board in the polar bear video which rather negates any "what about a train travelling at high speed"!), and there wasn't a train to come from the opposite direction, then they weren't in any danger. You can't say "they might have been hit by a train in the opposite direction" unless you know there was a likelihood of there actually being a train in the opposite direction. And if we can say that, then there's a reasonable chance they knew it too.

 

Still a silly stunt though, as far as I'm concerned.

 

On the other hand, if a silly stunt gets more people talking seriously about energy policy and action taken ... history would probably judge them fairly well. I'll come back to you on that in 25 years.

[simon47603]

I wonder how the Government and the Police would have reacted, if it had been a loaded DRS Flask Train. I think their reaction would be slightly different.

 

I am so so tempted to go into a Huge Rant over this, I would only get myself banned so I won't!

 

However, I highly recommend this book by David Archibald : Twilight of Abundance

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Twilight-Abundance-Century-Nasty-Brutish/dp/1621571580

 

Regards

Simon

[beast66606]

Looking at their video evidence they weren't apparently standing in front of the train (unless someone was behind the camera operator). Which suggest that they were (apparently) considering their own safety, and they didn't put anything on the tracks until the train had stopped, so this suggests to me they also were thinking of the train/driver's safety.

 

Was the line a passing loop? It was a double track, as is fairly obvious if you look at the photos. I don't know the line, but if it's goods-only, and only serves the power station (and as for speed there is a "20" restriction board in the polar bear video which rather negates any "what about a train travelling at high speed"!), and there wasn't a train to come from the opposite direction, then they weren't in any danger. You can't say "they might have been hit by a train in the opposite direction" unless you know there was a likelihood of there actually being a train in the opposite direction. And if we can say that, then there's a reasonable chance they knew it too.

 

 

We can't speculate as to how well informed they were about the risks but remember, there are plenty of professionals who knew (correct tense) all the risks, had been trained and (sadly) are no longer here to comment - sadly I know of an incident many years ago where several lads were killed, and I also knew the driver who did it, and that was at a low speed. A train is so heavy that the human body will always come off worse in a collision, even at only a few mph.

[durham light infantry]

I wonder how the Government and the Police would have reacted, if it had been a loaded DRS Flask Train. I think their reaction would be slightly different.

 

 

The Civil Nuclear Police https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/civil-nuclear-constabulary/about  would react somewhat more forcefully than the BTP.

 

Mike

[Reorte]

I'll just give a simple, plain answer to your reply - they were trespassing so were putting their lives and those of others in danger, it really is as simple as that. Whether the train was moving or staionary it makes no difference - they should not have been there, period.

 

I shan't say anymore in this thread or I'll end up being barred from the forum.

They were trespassing and shouldn't have been there, period. Complete agreement on that part.

 

However I simply cannot accept that that automatically, always, definitely means they were putting their lives and those of others in danger. Perhaps they were, perhaps they weren't, it all depends on what they were doing.

With open running lines or even little used freight only lines there is always a possiblilty of being hit by a train - simple

There's always a possibility. Of course. However the mere existence of a possibility is not enough. How much of a possibility matters, since it ranges from "certain" to "very unlikely within the life of the universe."

[The Stationmaster]

I watched some of the videos, and it didn't look like they were standing on powdered coal

 

https://secure.greenpeace.org.uk/page/content/people-vs-coal?source=em&subsource=20140923coem01&utm_source=gpeace&utm_medium=em&utm_campaign=20140923coem01

 

From the videos:

1/ They stopped the train using a flagman wearing hi-vis, standing by the side of the track.

2/ Once the train was slowing/stopped, he stood between the rails and other people ran up.

3/ Once the train was stationary, the polar bear was moved in and the stunt photos/film taken

4/ They all had hi-vis and ladders

5/ The coal was bagged before it was thrown off

6/ The Police appeared to take a fairly low-key attitude at first (Greenpeace edited the video, so the footage is obviously selective).

Good video - confirms what a pack of idiots they were.  Shall we go through it in order -

 

1. A raving loony stands in the four foot waving a red flag, clearly exposing himself to danger on the railway and running a pretty good risk of being hit - more like 'The Railway Children' than adult common sense.

2. A bunch of them then start milling about on the (live) opposite line, presumably they thought their pretty orange outfits would make any approaching train bounce off? Maybe they thought the ladder would defeat any approaching Class 66?

3. Then some of the dafter ones start climbing onto a wagon of power station coal - that stuff can be treacherous to walk on when it's in a wagon and it gets everywhere so you need proper PPE.

4. Then they starting throwing sacks of coal off the wagon - it won't bounce off a hard hat.

 

Altogether I'm afraid my opinion of them is even lower after seeing the idiots in action and I think they were remarkably lucky that they weren't hit by a train on the opposite road.  But at least there's plenty of video evidence for the court.

 

PS a note for those who understand such things - the line there is a double track NR owned branch 3.5 miles long and worked by Track Circuit block with a single (auto) intermediate signal on the both the Up (going towards the power station) and Down Line although both had emergency replacement buttons on the old Thrumpton panel mainly because of the three level crossings (2 ahb and one UWC).  

I understand that in the past there have been adhesion problems (but probably due to leaves/wet weather but not certain on that).  The line speed for loaded trains is 40 mph until 9 chains before reaching the power station boundary where it reduces to 20mph.  The linespeed in the opposite direction is 30mph rising to 40 mph from just short of Leverton LC but then dropping to 20 mph about half a mile further on.  

 

I can't readily identify the spot where the incident occurred but the distant view of the power station suggest to me it was where the linespeed is 40mph for loaded trans as it looks to be more than 9 chains from the power station boundary.  Speed there on the opposite road would be either 30 or 40mph.  If the train had been stopped within strike-in distance of either AHB it would of course caused further problems plus delays to road users

[beast66606]

A quote from someone on the railway side of the equation

 

Well after the protest yesterday that ended prematurely, Greenpeace left the site in a terrible mess. Just 15 Network Rail crew comprising of S&T, Pway, MOMs & LOMs cleared up an estimated 30-40 tonnes of bagged up coal from the track that had been filled by more than 50 of these idiots. They had makeshift trolleys on the track with the line still open. I really hope that NR, EWS, and EDF really throw the book at them. The operation of the BT police must have cost a fortune too.
All the bags were loaded onto our trolleys and then loaded onto a flat back and then transported to the power station. I'm off to bed, I'm f*ked! (DAS edit - very tired)

[Reorte]

OK, ladder up on the live side, milling around on the live opposite line, climbing into wagons of coal that they could end up swallowed up in? That is genuinely stupid dangerous-sounding idiocy, I've no problem with hearing them labelled as such for that sort of behaviour.

[PaulRhB]

You never stand in the four foot on an open line to stop a train. Too many block men bowled over lifting dets because they thought they were safe. Even a freight standing still is dangerous, when the brakes release the wagons can roll forward or back which is why buckeyes with side releases are much much safer than screw couplings for the shunter. Look at the poor chap who was fully trained on the NYMR who got squashed when a simple error was made.

On Sunday we had an elderly man commit suicide by jumping off a bridge, the engineering train coming out of a T3 at relatively slow speed saw what he thought was a bag in the four foot, realising too late it was a body to stop. Rubbish on the track is common, even old hi vi that's fallen off a trolley during work. That driver is now having to live with his loco running over someone, he did nothing wrong at all, and it may well give him nightmares and stress for the rest of his life.

We can only go on track with a damn good reason and full paperwork precisely because so many well trained railway workers have had near misses and accidents. Modern trains aren't noisy and are often much heavier so no comparison to steam days of no hi vis.

We wear hi vi because it gives drivers a chance to warn us if we are in the wrong place and not scare the **** out of them.

[wombatofludham]

Those who are apparently supporting, or even not condemning this act, whatever the alleged message, are forgetting one thing.  These morons have demonstrated a method of stopping a train involving trespass, dressing up as "railway personnel" and the use of flags.  Others will have seen this video.  They may be tempted to copy it for other reasons.  A slow moving intermodal approaching a distribution centre with valuable cargo.  Vandals wanting to cause trouble.  Yes, even terrorists wanting to hijack a chemical or oil train (as they won't get anywhere near a spent nuclear fuel train).  They have now seen a "how do" video in the art of stopping a slow moving train on a quiet freight only branch.  More to the point, the terminally stupid have seen a mass trespass where the trespassers didn't get hurt and will, in their stupidity, be reinforced in their view it's ok to trespass.

 

This was completely irresponsible not only in the act itself, but in the message it sends to others with other axes to grind or criminal intentions.

 

[PaulRhB]

In addition what happens when Beasts mate injures his back shifting half a ton of bagged coal that they left dumped and endures pain and cost plus possibly not being able to go on track again. There's loads of what ifs and the only certainty is that if they weren't there then no rail workers were at any risk!

[Reorte]

Those who are apparently supporting, or even not condemning this act, whatever the alleged message, are forgetting one thing. 

I don't think that anyone is supporting or even not condemning it.

[Talltim]

I would like a life sized mechanical Polar bear tho.

[Pete 75C]

I would like a life sized mechanical Polar bear tho.

 

Each to their own, but I'd prefer a life sized mechanical Cameron Diaz...

[wombatofludham]

I don't think that anyone is supporting or even not condemning it.

 

I was thinking more of the Facebook messages but one or two postings here have been at best ambivalent about the risks the idiots exposed themselves to and the tone of their postings seemed to be more "conciliatory" towards the action.  Personally I am of the view that this action is a simple black-and-white case, no nuancing here.  It is wrong, period, or you agree with it.  Agreeing with the message and pointing out no-one got hurt is effectively saying it's ok to trespass on a live railway if you have principles.  It is NEVER acceptable for unauthorised individuals to trespass on a live railway regardless of speed of traffic or for that matter the size of the trains as I'm sure our dear little Fairbourne Railway here in the village could happily sever the limb of a crapwit arsing about on the track.  Therefore the reasoning and method behind the trespass are to all intents irrelevant.

[jamie92208]

Each to their own, but I'd prefer a life sized mechanical Cameron Diaz...

I'd just miss out the words 'a life sized mechnical' butdon't let SWMBO know.

 

Jamie

[PaulRhB]

Each to their own, but I'd prefer a life sized mechanical Cameron Diaz...

Again each to their own but I'd rather have a mechanical bear, that won't eat me, and a REAL Miss Diaz

[wombatofludham]

I think I'd prefer the polar bear so long as he came with a truck load of his minty sweets.  Ms Diaz isn't known for her confectionery.

[Reorte]

I was thinking more of the Facebook messages but one or two postings here have been at best ambivalent about the risks the idiots exposed themselves to and the tone of their postings seemed to be more "conciliatory" towards the action.  Personally I am of the view that this action is a simple black-and-white case, no nuancing here.  It is wrong, period, or you agree with it.  Agreeing with the message and pointing out no-one got hurt is effectively saying it's ok to trespass on a live railway if you have principles.  It is NEVER acceptable for unauthorised individuals to trespass on a live railway regardless of speed of traffic or for that matter the size of the trains as I'm sure our dear little Fairbourne Railway here in the village could happily sever the limb of a crapwit arsing about on the track.  Therefore the reasoning and method behind the trespass are to all intents irrelevant.

I'm one of those ambivalent towards the risks in the general "it is always dangerous, end of" principle, although the details that have been provided suggest that the protesters were behaving in a clearly dangerous manner.

 

I also wouldn't say that it's 100% always wrong to trespass for good principles, end of. I strongly believe that nothing is ever black and white. We're just fortunate enough to live in a time and place where it's hard or impossible to think of a situation where it would be justified.

 

The reason and method are completely and important. A cilvilised country will try to have its laws such that there is no contradiction - there won't be cases where the reason is justified, but again that doesn't rule out the possibility of there being times and places where it might have been. With the method it'll determine what degree of punishment is appropriate - I would hope that an attempt to deliberately endanger lives, using methods much more likely to endanger lives, would attract a harsher punishment.

 

Black and white is a dangerous path to go down, everything needs to be judged on its own merits and what those may or may not be will be up to a judge and jury. Personally I don't think that there were any merits whatsoever in their action.

[Ozexpatriate]

As far as Im concerned, these muppets are targeting the wrong country to be begin with.

If you look to America, they run hundreds of coal trains a day to coal fired power stations and to export coal around the world, most of these trains are  in the region of 10 to 15'000 tonnes EACH!!!

Yes, and the pressure by activists to perform civil disobedience on the topic of arresting global climate change is increasing.

 

From that standpoint this stunt by Greenpeace is a dangerous precedent.

 

Any act that violates safety procedures is not safe, by definition and I don't condone it. The fact that this stunt appears to be carried out without injury (as opposed to "safely") does not mean it was without danger but compared to what Greenpeace is prepared to do on the high seas, this action was relatively tame in terms of the personal risk involved to the participants and it will encourage them to do more.

 

If activists deem this stunt to be 'successful' (and we're still talking about it here) it will be replicated (by Greenpeace and others) in the UK and other locations in the world.

 

I would suggest that with the safety culture in the UK this activity was less risky than a similar stunt in, say, North America.

 

There a plans to increase trains of Powder River coal here (including street running) to an LPG terminal that is yet to be built.

[Ozexpatriate]

I know it's a daft question, but we're any passenger trains affected by this?

The BBC reported this:

Passenger services were not affected because the train was in sidings, Greenpeace said.

Hardly a reliable source I would have thought.

 

It does raise the question of what the track layout at this location really was. Based on proximity to the power station I am presuming that this occurred on the branch serving the power station rather than a mainline with passenger traffic but I have no idea.

 

Looking at Google maps the junction with the mainline is between Retford and Gainsborough.

[Horsetan]

I'm one of those ambivalent towards the risks in the general "it is always dangerous, end of" principle, although the details that have been provided suggest that the protesters were behaving in a clearly dangerous manner.

 

I also wouldn't say that it's 100% always wrong to trespass for good principles, end of. I strongly believe that nothing is ever black and white. We're just fortunate enough to live in a time and place where it's hard or impossible to think of a situation where it would be justified.

 

The reason and method are completely and important. A cilvilised country will try to have its laws such that there is no contradiction - there won't be cases where the reason is justified, but again that doesn't rule out the possibility of there being times and places where it might have been. With the method it'll determine what degree of punishment is appropriate - I would hope that an attempt to deliberately endanger lives, using methods much more likely to endanger lives, would attract a harsher punishment.

 

Black and white is a dangerous path to go down, everything needs to be judged on its own merits and what those may or may not be will be up to a judge and jury. Personally I don't think that there were any merits whatsoever in their action.

 

 

The more informed and determined will not need any "How to do it" video. These days a whole raft of railway operating information is in the public domain: the rule book, sectional appendices, working timetables and so on, all of which I like to have a rummage through every now and then. What really surprised me was the very publication of these documents which were always headed "Private and not for publication", most certainly for sound reasons at the time, but in the name of transparency lately.

 

I wondered why at the time and still wonder for how much longer, in the current climate, it can continue.   

 

The internet has made experts of us all.

 

It has also given the stupid a much broader opportunity to inflict their stupidity on everyone else in a way they could never have envisaged before.

[Reorte]

Any act that violates safety procedures is not safe, by definition

That statement implies that the procedures are the one and only way of being safe, and are guarenteed to be safe. Neither of those is true. They are certainly drawn up by competent and experienced people (I hope so at any rate!) so they are very, very likely to be the safest way of doing something but that's the most you can say.

 

I'm sorry to have to keep banging on this drum but I find the dogmatic approach I'm seeing rather disturbing. It is treating things as absolutes that simply aren't absolute. Equating "against the rules" with "unsafe" means not making any judgments. When it comes to being safe judgment is always required since the converse "sticking with the rules" equates to "safe" isn't always true either - even if everything is being done properly according to procedure I'd hope that people would still apply judgment and back out of an action if there was something they weren't happy about.

 

I'm actually rather disturbed to have received a few "disagrees" on some of my posts. It implies that people believe that something can be defined as 100% right or wrong, end of. Even not being able to imagine any circumstances where a particular action is acceptable doesn't mean that there may not be one. A dogmatic attitude doesn't help. "The end never justifies the means" is no more true than "the end always justifies the means."

 

The internet has made experts of us all.

 

It has also given the stupid a much broader opportunity to inflict their stupidity on everyone else in a way they could never have envisaged before.

If you're implying that I'm stupid because of my post then you should at least have the decency to say why.

 

I'm also bothered by the attitude that if I don't agree with every criticism anyone thinks up against these protestors I'm somehow defending or agreeing with what they did. I hope I've made it clear that I do not.

[Horsetan]

....If you're implying that I'm stupid because of my post then you should at least have the decency to say why.

 

Which I didn't.

 

I think you're a little too sensitive.