RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2014 I may be the odd one out here but I would not support all removal of airline type seats from trains and think there is a place for them. I try and get airline seats now as I find the leg space more comfortable than sharing a limited space with somebody sitting on the other side of the table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2014 These Images were on the urban Glasgow Forum, copied by permission Cheers Jim The unit without corridor connections looks nice. But the other one, hideous!!! Pity we could not have something like the Danish IC3 which has a driver console that swings out of the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDEEDIESEL Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Refurbished 158's!!! So a piece of bad news about the new operator! I wouid have thought they would have been the 1st to go!!! I will never forget a few years ago getting aN "Inter City" train to Edinburgh and was expecting a 47 with 6 to 8 coaches to appear when to my disbelief a single 2 car 158 turned up...What a nightmare journey!!-Put me off them for Life!Will need to see how the East Coast "Local" services are going to be handled!!? ;o) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I may be the odd one out here but I would not support all removal of airline type seats from trains and think there is a place for them. I try and get airline seats now as I find the leg space more comfortable than sharing a limited space with somebody sitting on the other side of the table. You aren't the only one, I think there is a practicality versus preference thing here, I think trains start to look full when there is somebody at every group of seats, so having groups of four rather than two makes it feel busier with half the number of people. Whilst i'd love all trains to have table seats, having every train sized so that you can get 4 seats to yourself is implausible. If you're travelling in groups of 4 then they are great, except if you get on a train that's more than 25% full you'll find you can't all sit together as all the bays of 4 will have one seat taken... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2014 I'm over 6' tall an almost always find airline seats too cramped (although some are better than others), especially if I don't have room to spread sideways. That's usually less of an issue at a table. I'm coming around to the idea that removing all airline seats is a bad idea but I don't think they should be in the majority, at least not until a last resort. A carriage that's more than 1/2 full feels busy IMO no matter what type of seating. The 88% tables sounds good, if it isn't jammed solid. HSTs to Fort William though? Sounds crazy and wonderful! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2014 You aren't the only one, I think there is a practicality versus preference thing here, I think trains start to look full when there is somebody at every group of seats, so having groups of four rather than two makes it feel busier with half the number of people. Whilst i'd love all trains to have table seats, having every train sized so that you can get 4 seats to yourself is implausible. If you're travelling in groups of 4 then they are great, except if you get on a train that's more than 25% full you'll find you can't all sit together as all the bays of 4 will have one seat taken... It is a common problem with what many of us regard as 'short' trains - they look overcrowded and we all like our personal bit of space. As far as 158s are concerned I have always found them to be quite pleasant trains in which to travel and definitely a step up from the Modernisation Plan dmus which they have replaced on some routes. But equally something of a step down when replacing a nice roomy Mk1 coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I'm over 6' tall an almost always find airline seats too cramped (although some are better than others) Some seat spacings are admittedly appalling - Certain seats in Voyagers come to mind here where my knees touch the seat in front and i'm not as tall as you! Some are really nice though, a 180 for instance should give you much more legroom than any table seat (assuming later operators haven't moved the seats around) as they were set up with two rows of seats lined up to a Mk3 sized window - which is effectively original HST first class spacing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 If you check the link on post #90 it shows 100% of seats at the windows on the refurb 158's... As has also been said its how it "should" be not a novelty ☺ Presumably that was misleading and they felt the need to clarify, it seems the news came from a Transport Scotland email going around yesterday with more details of the 'Great Scottish Scenic Railway' offering so I see no reason to doubt it. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2014 Some are really nice though, a 180 for instance should give you much more legroom than any table seat (assuming later operators haven't moved the seats around) as they were set up with two rows of seats lined up to a Mk3 sized window - which is effectively original HST first class spacing! I've not been on a 180, perhaps my opinion has been rather biased by being mostly the likes of Voyagers. They definitely seem to contribute towards a more cramped, claustrophobic atmosphere though so, assuming you can get a seat to yourself, they're definitely less pleasant. On the other hand it's unreasonable to always expect a bay of 4 to yourself so I'm definitely coming around to the idea that having some is a good idea. I'd like to see what I'll call for the sake of argument a "modern Mk 1" would be like though. Same layout, not a MU so no engines, reasonably comfortable seats (some modern ones are very hard and cheap-looking), modern ride quality and without the habit of being smashed to pieces in a crash, air conditioned etc. Unfortunately I don't see it being viable these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2014 I'd like to see what I'll call for the sake of argument a "modern Mk 1" would be like though. Same layout, not a MU so no engines, reasonably comfortable seats (some modern ones are very hard and cheap-looking), modern ride quality and without the habit of being smashed to pieces in a crash, air conditioned etc. Unfortunately I don't see it being viable these days. I think it was called the Mk3, probably one of the best and definitely one of the strongest passenger coaches ever built and delightfully comfortable in its original configuration, and still giving good service where properly looked after. Rather a shame it's going to be succeeded by something which looks like a triumph of not so bright ideas over plain commonsense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2014 I think it was called the Mk3, probably one of the best and definitely one of the strongest passenger coaches ever built and delightfully comfortable in its original configuration, and still giving good service where properly looked after. Rather a shame it's going to be succeeded by something which looks like a triumph of not so bright ideas over plain commonsense. The Mk3 didn't quite get the seating lined up as well, and the vestibule doors weren't worked by the most wonderful mechanism in the world. Those are minor niggles though, and they are very nice vehicles. Technology and design has moved on though and I'm sure we could make even nicer ones now if we really wanted to. I often come across as against anything new but I'd love to see a rake of brand new well-designed carriages behind something like a 68. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I think it was called the Mk3, probably one of the best and definitely one of the strongest passenger coaches ever built and delightfully comfortable in its original configuration, and still giving good service where properly looked after. I also like the Mk3s but as a passenger I rated the non-airconditioned Mk2bs higher; they were almost the last coaches to have "proper" panoramic windows - subsequent designs made the windows shallower, apparently on the grounds that at higher speeds some people felt unsafe or uncomfortable sitting next to such a large picture window, paving the way for today's designs of wretchedly small windows. Mk2s also managed to align all seats in all coaches with the windows, unlike the Mk3s. And the Mk3 had stainless steel WC fittings rather than using ceramics, presumably as an anti-vandalism measure, whereas to me they look like unpleasant "prison chic" rather than something designed for passenger comfort. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 MkIII vestibule doors worked well when the treadmats had not been stored folded in half, which caused the majority of failures on the 1990s WCML fleet certainly. Looked after properly these are in a different league to stuff like Voyager doors which require active rather than passive human intervention to make them open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2014 I also like the Mk3s but as a passenger I rated the non-airconditioned Mk2bs higher; they were almost the last coaches to have "proper" panoramic windows - subsequent designs made the windows shallower, apparently on the grounds that at higher speeds some people felt unsafe or uncomfortable sitting next to such a large picture window, paving the way for today's designs of wretchedly small windows. The size of the windows on Pendolinos often comes in for criticism but does having them small add a lot to the strength? After all whatever else I think of them Grayrigg certainly demonstrated that they're tough. Sorry for off-topic drift. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I also like the Mk3s but as a passenger I rated the non-airconditioned Mk2bs higher; they were almost the last coaches to have "proper" panoramic windows - subsequent designs made the windows shallower, apparently on the grounds that at higher speeds some people felt unsafe or uncomfortable sitting next to such a large picture window, paving the way for today's designs of wretchedly small windows. Was it that, or reducing solar gain so the aircon didn't have to work so hard? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2014 I also like the Mk3s but as a passenger I rated the non-airconditioned Mk2bs higher; they were almost the last coaches to have "proper" panoramic windows - subsequent designs made the windows shallower, apparently on the grounds that at higher speeds some people felt unsafe or uncomfortable sitting next to such a large picture window, paving the way for today's designs of wretchedly small windows. Mk2s also managed to align all seats in all coaches with the windows, unlike the Mk3s. And the Mk3 had stainless steel WC fittings rather than using ceramics, presumably as an anti-vandalism measure, whereas to me they look like unpleasant "prison chic" rather than something designed for passenger comfort. Paul The big advantage of Mk3 toilets is that they are easier and quicker to clean which is quite useful when you're staffing shifts in a carriage cleaning depot (or doing it yourself when there's an unofficial strike taking place - one of my more unusual tee-shirts) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Not Captain Kernow Posted October 29, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2014 I hope we are not going down the road of toilet anecdotes! Mine involves a Class 319, a retention tank, pair of false teeth and a suction pump... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2014 Found online, somehow managed not to get mentioned here. Until now, that is http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-30106357 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-30067215 If they think what they see in Holland will be any guide to what they might get in Scotland they must be barmy - they'd have been better off toddling down to London and taking a trip to Norwich or Harwich (but it wouldn't be have as exciting as an evening in Amsterdam of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Nobody gives a toss about this anymore except maybe the BBC, usual reporting standards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted November 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2014 No, its not to their usual standards. They didnt use a picture of a 3rd rail EMU to illustrate the story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2014 We shall have to wait and see what the rolling stock providers and new franchisee can negotiate. 2-car and 3-car units buzzing around Scotland at regular intervals are all well and good except that in some cases they are far too small for traffic offering. Having replaced longer loco-hauled trains many years ago now a 2-car 158 or 170 on a Glasgow - Aberdeen or Edinburgh -Inverness often results in many passengers standing for long periods of time. Having all the seats around tables is a great concept in theory provided there are sufficient seats on the train. Some will be lost with this modification. I have always felt there is a need for "tourist trains" on the scenic Scottish routes and while traffic is to some extent seasonal if these were formed with suitable rolling stock which was not required in the winter it may be possible to then release it for steam charters as a source of revenue. HST coaches will become available (in theory at least) as the IEP sets arrive. Whether or not they remain powered by class 43 cars a rake of five or six with seats around tables would make a suitable day-set for an Edinburgh / Glasgow - Fort William round trip. That in turn might release at least one DMU to strengthen the Oban route. Likewise on the Kyle line where a round trip with loco and coaches could release a unit for the Far North and who knows possibly lead to splits / combines at Georgemas once more cutting 30 minutes off the "via Thurso" journey time for Wick passengers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Having all the seats around tables is a great concept in theory provided there are sufficient seats on the train. Great points Rick, but I'm not personally convinced that this is what the travelling public wants. Watching HSTs fill up at Paddington, the small number of table seats are usually the last to be occupied, and there are often empty table seats remaining once all the airline-style seats have been taken. Now I appreciate that different routes will have different markets and different customer bases, and that Scottish travellers may be much more friendly and outgoing than their Western English and Welsh counterparts, and hence open to sitting around a table with people they've never met before, but experience suggests that there are plenty of people who appreciate the (relatively) more private space that they get with airline-style seating. So I personally think it would be a mistake to eliminate airline-style seating as an option. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Great points Rick, but I'm not personally convinced that this is what the travelling public wants. Watching HSTs fill up at Paddington, the small number of table seats are usually the last to be occupied, and there are often empty table seats remaining once all the airline-style seats have been taken. Now I appreciate that different routes will have different markets and different customer bases, and that Scottish travellers may be much more friendly and outgoing than their Western English and Welsh counterparts, and hence open to sitting around a table with people they've never met before, but experience suggests that there are plenty of people who appreciate the (relatively) more private space that they get with airline-style seating. So I personally think it would be a mistake to eliminate airline-style seating as an option. David I don't think airline style seating will be eliminated as an option, as the economics of loadings vs revenue will not support that any more than travellers' personal taste. I think what we will see is the tide turn away from the FGW 'rows of tombstones' interior, back towards a mixed, hybrid saloon layout, possibly more 60:40. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 We shall have to wait and see what the rolling stock providers and new franchisee can negotiate. 2-car and 3-car units buzzing around Scotland at regular intervals are all well and good except that in some cases they are far too small for traffic offering. Having replaced longer loco-hauled trains many years ago now a 2-car 158 or 170 on a Glasgow - Aberdeen or Edinburgh -Inverness often results in many passengers standing for long periods of time. I think we have a pretty good idea already - IIRC the Far North, WHL and Borders Railway will be operated by refurbished 158s, Stranraer will continue with 156s, while 27 reformed 2+4 and 2+5 HSTs will operate longer distance services from Glasgow and Edinburgh to and between Inverness and Aberdeen. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Sounds good to me. Panoramic views from a comfy 158 storming Borthwick and threading the Gala down to Stow. Living the dream! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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