mjkerr Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Find it hard to believe that class 47s are being rostered for north of Edinburgh sleepers - surely they're not as reliable as the more modern 67s? The Scotrail sleepers were powered by EWS/DB Schenker locos for the whole route, so Scotrail's franchise loss knocks-on to EWS It's all about commercial contracts, availability, and so on It does seem odd that Serco couldn't come to some type agreement with DBS to extend the use of Class 67 locos until the end of 2015 (allowing some overlap) However, Serco have entered into a rolling stock locomotive provision agreement with GBRf, and I assume they didn't want to sub-contract from either of their main rivals (DBS for Class 67 and DRS for Class 68) There shouldn't be any issue with Class 47 locos between Edinburgh - Aberdeen and Edinburgh - Inverness However, I am still surprised they are permitted between Dalmuir - Fort William, it wouldn't have occured in BR days! Equally, the Charter trains are required to have a support loco attached, so I don't see how the sleepers can now be excluded... I suspect a spare loco will have to be kept at Edinburgh, ironically the DBS Class 67 will be available! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 And I still wonder what, if anything, FGW are going to do about reinvesting in their own service Again, a misjointed policy between DfT and TS TS has taken the opportunity to split the Caledonian Sleepers franchise (as they wanted to avoid hiding the actual costs and in preparation for Scottish Independence) I appreciate the Great Western Sleeper is a smaller operation, but is basically a mirror image There was a great opportunity for DfT to place a similar order for new rolling stock (after all it is they that make the specification) in preparation for the new franchise However, apart from the sleeper coaches themselves they are quite different now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 I'm a bit miffed Ayrshire and Inverclyde will presumably lose some 380s so they can be used Glasgow-Edinburgh. 7 sets is only enough to cover the Qtr hourly service of 4 trains each way. That means each train will be 4 car . Were we not looking at 6 or 7 car trains at one time. Peak services to Edinburgh now are two Class 170s ie 6 cars. What am I missing? Where and when will new Hitachi units be deployed? Edit : Actually it says Dec 16. Will Glasgow - Edinburgh even be electrified by then, or are they meaning supplementary services on Queen St Low Level to Edinburgh via Bathgate line? As to HSTs well I love them and glad to see them back , but is a 4 car HST not a bit of a waste of resources? A lot of engine, not a lot of passenger accommodation. I again assume this is due to limited platform lengths at Queen Street, but isn't it to be rebuilt, and even in its current form can't it take 2+5 ? Class 47s on sleepers , while I'm sure good for enthusiasts has got to be a backward step. Reliability must be issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 The average miles between failures of mainline certified 47's in 2014 was.....? I take it that you have an answer to that, or are you just "assuming"? (you know what they say about assumptions) Class 47s on sleepers , while I'm sure good for enthusiasts has got to be a backward step. Reliability must be issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Not this again.... I hate to break it to you but most rail users are not enthusiasts. If the opinions of enthusiasts were important then they would figure in the tender documents. Most passengers- in my experience- like HST's because they are quiet, fast and comfortable. But if you were to stick them on a LHCS MK3 or a well refurbished Mk2 I don't think they would get too upset about what is pulling or pushing them. Have you never experienced people getting off a LHCS MK3 and looking puzzled to find a square fronted thing at the front instead of a HST PC? The fact is people like them because of what they provide, not liking them for the sake of liking them. All this lurve-in for the HSTs, I remember when they were brand new and hated by enthusiasts because they were fixed formation unit trains, overcrowded, with hard seats that didn't line up with the windows in second class, had smelly brakes and replaced Westerns and Deltics. I of course thought they were great, but then I like trains with coathangers on the roof. Enthusiasts are really the most fickle bunch of tarts pounding the streets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Find it hard to believe that class 47s are being rostered for north of Edinburgh sleepers - surely they're not as reliable as the more modern 67s? It's only until the 73/9s are ready, and it's been reported that the refurbished HNRC/Riviera 47s have shown excellent reliability on their current freight work for GBRf which has presumably given them the confidence to use them on the sleeper. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Not this again.... I hate to break it to you but most rail users are not enthusiasts. If the opinions of enthusiasts were important then they would figure in the tender documents. Most passengers- in my experience- like HST's because they are quiet, fast and comfortable. But if you were to stick them on a LHCS MK3 or a well refurbished Mk2 I don't think they would get too upset about what is pulling or pushing them. Have you never experienced people getting off a LHCS MK3 and looking puzzled to find a square fronted thing at the front instead of a HST PC? The fact is people like them because of what they provide, not liking them for the sake of liking them. Did I actually say anything about HSTs being hated by the travelling public? No. I was specifically highlighting the fact that enthusiasts, on this site, were saying how wonderful it will be to have HSTs running in Scotland when their contemporaries in the 1970s were vitriolic about them, and how fickle railway enthusiasts are. Not the travelling public. For the absolute avoidance of doubt, HSTs were hugely popular with the travelling public from Day 1. However, they were initially hated by enthusiasts, who I know are not the majority of rail users and I resent your patronising suggestion that I'm ignorant of the fact when you have mis-understood the whole point of my comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I'm a bit miffed Ayrshire and Inverclyde will presumably lose some 380s so they can be used Glasgow-Edinburgh. 7 sets is only enough to cover the Qtr hourly service of 4 trains each way. That means each train will be 4 car . Were we not looking at 6 or 7 car trains at one time. Peak services to Edinburgh now are two Class 170s ie 6 cars. What am I missing? Where and when will new Hitachi units be deployed? Edit : Actually it says Dec 16. Will Glasgow - Edinburgh even be electrified by then, or are they meaning supplementary services on Queen St Low Level to Edinburgh via Bathgate line? Dec 2016 is the E&G electrification date but I can't see seven units covering it. Unless they scrape together some 334s to augment them, and/or mix with diesel sets until the Hitachi fleet appear? Hopefully the poor sods on the Lanark line will take the brunt of the 321s, along with the various 380 forays round the Cathcart Circle etc not Ayr/Inverclyde. I can't see the 321s keeping pace with the 380-based timetable out west, and the evening peak rarely runs to time between Gilmour St and Kilwinning as it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 Did I actually say anything about HSTs being hated by the travelling public? No. I was specifically highlighting the fact that enthusiasts, on this site, were saying how wonderful it will be to have HSTs running in Scotland when their contemporaries in the 1970s were vitriolic about them, and how fickle railway enthusiasts are. Not the travelling public. For the absolute avoidance of doubt, HSTs were hugely popular with the travelling public from Day 1. However, they were initially hated by enthusiasts, who I know are not the majority of rail users and I resent your patronising suggestion that I'm ignorant of the fact when you have mis-understood the whole point of my comment. Or they didn't like HSTs and they like the newer trains even less, so the HSTs look good in comparison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted February 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2015 Dec 2016 is the E&G electrification date but I can't see seven units covering it. Unless they scrape together some 334s to augment them, and/or mix with diesel sets until the Hitachi fleet appear? Hopefully the poor sods on the Lanark line will take the brunt of the 321s, along with the various 380 forays round the Cathcart Circle etc not Ayr/Inverclyde. I can't see the 321s keeping pace with the 380-based timetable out west, and the evening peak rarely runs to time between Gilmour St and Kilwinning as it is. Thing is are the 321s a short term lease or do Transport Scotland envisage keeping them for the longer term? If you have a look at their plans for the 158 fleet, those that they are going to return to the lease company will only get a refresh while those sets they will be keeping will have a through and extensive refurbishment. One of the leasing companies has already shown you can effectively produce a 'new' train from the basic 321 bodyshell (i.e new traction system, complete gut and refurbishment of the insides, fitment of air con, etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm a bit miffed Ayrshire and Inverclyde will presumably lose some 380s so they can be used Glasgow-Edinburgh 7 sets is only enough to cover the Qtr hourly service of 4 trains each way. That means each train will be 4 car . Were we not looking at 6 or 7 car trains at one time This is a temporary solution until the new rolling stock arrives The Class 321 units are to be used on the Glasgow Central - Lanark services, Class 380 units are temporarily covering this Although 7 Class 380 units will operate between Glasgow QS and Edinburgh, at peak times pairs of Class 170 units will also be used A new timetable will also come into effect, and the 4 car Class 380 units should be able to cope (non-stop between Glasgow QS and Haymarket) The following year Glasgow QS will close for a few months, and the new rolling stock should have arrived by then The short formed HST will also be lengthened The Class 380 units will then return to the Lanark services and the Class 314 units returned to RoSCo with the Class 321 units taking over the Cathcart services Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Given the Scottish passion for independence maybe they should consider re-gauging all of Scotland's railways to ensure that no trains go south of the border! LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted February 12, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2015 Given the Scottish passion for independence maybe they should consider re-gauging all of Scotland's railways to ensure that no trains go south of the border! LOL The quarter caber gauge (4' 10 1/2" if I've got that right)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Grateful to MJKerr for the info. Thing is are the 321s a short term lease or do Transport Scotland envisage keeping them for the longer term? If you have a look at their plans for the 158 fleet, those that they are going to return to the lease company will only get a refresh while those sets they will be keeping will have a through and extensive refurbishment... Re: the 158s, no wonder. They all look fairly neat outside but the interiors are getting grim, same with the 156 fleet. I've no objection to the 321s - our 320s and 318s do a decent job and work interchangably. But I don't think they'd work particularly well mixed into the otherwise 380-only routes *as they are*. If available, TS might even look for more 321s as the wires spread further around the central belt? Given the Scottish passion for independence maybe they should consider re-gauging all of Scotland's railways to ensure that no trains go south of the border! LOL Aye, funny. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thing is are the 321s a short term lease or do Transport Scotland envisage keeping them for the longer term? If you have a look at their plans for the 158 fleet, those that they are going to return to the lease company will only get a refresh while those sets they will be keeping will have a through and extensive refurbishment The seven Class 321 units were supposed to just be an 18 month temporary solution, however this clause has since been removed and their use beyond this has been confirmed, and probably takes them to the next rolling stock review (which will be required half way through the next franchise) Equally, there is a £10m shortfall in the funds to be received from DfT in 2015, and I suspect this rolling stock forms part of that renegotiation The on-loan Class 158 units were always going back to RoSCo as soon as EGIP was completed, that formed part of the next franchise Ironically, some of these units have since received ScotRail livery, but the interiors have not been refurbished These additional units will then allow the remaining units to be fully refurbished and will most likely be returned late in 2017 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Given the Scottish passion for independence maybe they should consider re-gauging all of Scotland's railways to ensure that no trains go south of the border! LOL What? Back to "Scotch Gauge" (4'-6"). Many of the early lines were laid to that gauge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_ft_6_in_gauge_railway Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Ahead of the new franchise starting next week, the first ScotRail liveried Mk2s have been released from Eastleigh Works today - They will be used on the Fife Circle LHCS services with 2 specially ScotRail liveried 68s - 006 & 007, and two rakes have been refurbished. https://www.flickr.com/photos/sparrowhawk7/16945791642/in/photostream/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/cna87/16758203050 https://www.flickr.com/photos/cna87/16939815752 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Looks like both franchises are having (minor) teething setup problems, and I don't remember such problems with the previous two Abellio : ScotRail uniforms have not arrived in time (delayed to August / September) http://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.3729292.1427333376!/image/2781950472.jpg Serco : Sub-contracted locos to GBRf Diesel-electric locos not available, GBRF sub-contracted to DBS http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/watch-serco-md-on-future-of-caledonian-sleeper-1-3731017 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Scotrail s uniforms were not planned to be introduced until October. Abellio are not able to consult with staff over the design until the 1st of April. The new uniform is of a bespoke design partly specified by transport Scotland. Abellio have said they want to get the design right. The unions are just mischief making. When first took over staff were issued with standard first bus uniforms that were rubbish see through trousers waterproof coats that let in water and fell apart within 3 months and shirts that would not iron and also shrank first time they were washed and never fitted again. In the old days of British Rail and national express staff were given a uniform every year first saved money by issuing one every 2 years however it is now 3 years since the last uniform issue and what the staff have at the moment is worn out and in urgent need of replacement. However I would rather wait a few months to get a decent uniform than have a rubbish not fit for purpose uniform rush released. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 The main issue is the franchise was previous ScotRail (no mention of National Express) First Group branded it as First ScotRail and removing the First branding is quite a challenge, and Abellio want no connection with it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBird Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Transport Scotland ScotRail franchise specification, January 2014 Section 2.4 Scenic Train Initiatives 2.4.2 Minimum the plans should include scenic train provision on the West Highland Line to Oban / Fort William and the Kyle Line, where scenic train provision may involve the provision of "premium carriages" on standard trains Bidders will submit their own ideas for the configuration of scenic trains As a minimum the seating will be arranged to maximise the view through windows with improved seating comfort, WiFi, appropriate luggage space, secure cycle and catering facilities, with at-seat service of hot drinks and light refreshments (including local or Scottish produce) 2.4.3 Providing enhanced observation opportunities Provision of dedicated scenic trains, if this is shown to provide more patronage There is no mention of a specific vehcile, only that the passenger should have a scenic view Is this a direct quote? If so, I'm a little concerned about the line from Fort William to Mallaig, surely the best section of the line. Given the need to take the franchise specification to the letter, where does this leave the Mallaig service? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Is this a direct quote? If so, I'm a little concerned about the line from Fort William to Mallaig, surely the best section of the line. Given the need to take the franchise specification to the letter, where does this leave the Mallaig service?Clause 2.4.2 refers to the current use of Class 156 units between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Oban / Fort William, and Class 158 units between Inverness and Kyle The proposal is to upgrade part of the train to allow better scenic views This also suggests such portion of the train will be at a supplement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Ahead of the new franchise starting next week, the first ScotRail liveried Mk2s have been released from Eastleigh Works today - They will be used on the Fife Circle LHCS services with 2 specially ScotRail liveried 68s - 006 & 007, and two rakes have been refurbished. Silver doors and the white dot coach ends, that was well thought out! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Silver doors and the white dot coach ends, that was well thought out! Agreed. Works on vehicles where the doors aren't right at the ends, but... Eastleigh 5945 by davidhann34016 on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Sometimes complying with the required standards really does produce some silly results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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