BR(S) Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Following on from this picture I posted in another thread http://www.hondawanderer.com/43182_Moreton-in-Marsh_2008_2.htm, this happened a week ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9prmmV9-A0&list=UUtCnvkoK7pWH24OfabCsmhQ 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I think the slow lines were closed last weekend (no services on The Greenford branch, W. Ealing or Hanwell) presumably for work on Cross Link, so that may have had something to do with this unusual working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avonside1563 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I bet that had some acceleration! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2014 Stock shortages meant the mini HST was used on Oxford / Paddington stoppers iirc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2014 I bet that had some acceleration! Acceleration maybe but being such a short formation it would have not much more stopping power than a push bike so very heavily speed restricted (the minimum formation you can run with an HST before having to reduce speeds is 5 trailers - anything fewer than that and stopping distances start going off the graph and you bring in big reductions below line speed). Probably just as well for a Driver having to stop at a lot of unfamiliar places! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Since when have Hornby been a TOC? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibuchan Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's not the first time it has happened. One other time was when a driver was booked to do a turn using a DMU that he did not sign, so they put out a 2+2 formation to keep the service running. Alistair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's not the first time it has happened. One other time was when a driver was booked to do a turn using a DMU that he did not sign, so they put out a 2+2 formation to keep the service running. Alistair Probably the 2+2 that turned up on a VT operated Manchester Airport-Glasgow, vice a 158, but as Mike says, the braking capability is somewhat compromised in short formations. Cheers, Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's not the first time it has happened. One other time was when a driver was booked to do a turn using a DMU that he did not sign, so they put out a 2+2 formation to keep the service running. Alistair http://www.hondawanderer.com/43182_Moreton-in-Marsh_2008_2.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Robert Shrives Posted October 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hi, Latest fun size operation was on FGW due traction knowledge in last 6 months or so if my memeory serves ok. Yes VT and ICXC before run fun size for many reasons most famous after axlebox failure fears so many MK3 trailers stopped , remember the HST parked on Newton Abott bridge?. VTXC flirtation with 158s on Birmingham - Swindons saw a few short forms as well. A well known short form HST was the pint size for the launch of the dyamic lines livery 2+3 set... but wether it stopped at EB? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted October 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2014 From the video it looks like it almost didn't stop. Oh dear - now I have a reason to run a HST on my layout! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's not the first time it has happened. One other time was when a driver was booked to do a turn using a DMU that he did not sign, so they put out a 2+2 formation to keep the service running. Alistair And this is the FGW that everyone was knocking in another thread for not providing customer service? Dear-oh-dear. Stewart 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Since when have Hornby been a TOC? They did once have their own power car. Geoff Endacott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Acceleration maybe but being such a short formation it would have not much more stopping power than a push bike so very heavily speed restricted (the minimum formation you can run with an HST before having to reduce speeds is 5 trailers - anything fewer than that and stopping distances start going off the graph and you bring in big reductions below line speed). Probably just as well for a Driver having to stop at a lot of unfamiliar places! Interesting but I'm wondering why, given that power cars and coaches all have their own brakes? I'm guessing it's to do with the greater weight of the two power cars compared with the coaches or is there a more subtle reason? (My bushbike stops far more quickly than a train but I don't very often take it up to 125MPH!! ) Edited October 17, 2014 by Pacific231G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Interesting way to test some recently refurbished Mk3s too - All have come back from Kilmarnock recently, as evidenced by the 2 coach Es. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Interesting but I'm wondering why, given that power cars and coaches all have their own brakes? I'm guessing it's to do with the greater weight of the two power cars compared with the coaches or is there a more subtle reason? (My bushbike stops far more quickly than a train but I don't very often take it up to 125MPH!! ) Put simply, each axle has a certain brake force, which varies from vehicle to vehicle. For example, say each trailer car has a brake force of 45 tonnes, and the power cars a brake force of 45 tonnes. If the power car has a mass of 70 tonnes, and each trailer a mass of 30 tonnes. To run at the line speed, the brake force must equal or exceed the mass of the train. So if you do the Maths, 2 power cars and 3 trailers mass 230 tonnes. The brake force of this setup would add upto 235 tonnes. Now if you removed a trailer car, the mass would drop to 200 tonnes, but the brake force would drop to 190 tonnes. Because of the reduced braking force available, you would have to reduce the max speed of the train until the braking performance matched the distance available to stop in. The above is a very simplified explanation, and there has to be a allowance for a train running with one or more brake isolated. A train would be allowed to run with a certain percentage of its brakes isolated and if there was more isolated than normal, the speed of the train would also have to be reduced. The braking curve is also calculated under poor rail head conditions, which explains why most trains normally stop quicker than allowed for in the timetable. All this is worked out automatically when TOPS came into operation. Before this, it had to be worked out manually, a pain for freight trains. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2014 to add speeds to the above One or two locomotives with one, two or three vehicles OR Three or more locomotives and any number of vehicles have to run at reduced speed: 75mph for linespeed 90mph and above 60mph for 85mph and below (same as running light engine) and from the rulebook...... These restrictions apply to locomotive-hauled trains formed of: • mark 1 coaching vehicles • mark 2 coaching vehicles • mark 3 sleeper vehicles • postal or parcel vehicles hauled by a locomotive (not including class 325 electric multiple-unit (EMU) vehicles). no mention of reduced speeds for MK3 day coaches! and the above restrictions do not apply to class 67s as they have very good brakes!! its a minefield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 18, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2014 and the above restrictions do not apply to class 67s as they have very good brakes!! its a minefield Unless it's the Scottish sleeper locos with cast iron blocks.... Cheers, Mick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted October 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2014 Interesting video - shame about the apparent d***heads hanging out the window shouting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby (John) Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Interesting video - shame about the apparent d***heads hanging out the window shouting... Probably the cream of the crop from Oxford!! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 And this is the FGW that everyone was knocking in another thread for not providing customer service? Dear-oh-dear. Stewart Or avoiding a penalty for the late non running of a service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I only discovered the concept of 'flailing' thanks to the recent thread about K&WVR diesel galas, but now I'm noticing it all the time! This website has lots of photos of strange HST (amongst others) formations. As the name suggests, the photos all seem to be taken at Totnes! http://www.totnestrains.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Three car? Can beat that. How about a solo HST power car carrying passengers? http://www.luxsoft.demon.co.uk/village/hst.html 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Or avoiding a penalty for the late non running of a service? Yes. Avoiding a penalty by running the train. Isn't that sort of what TOCs are supposed to do? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 In BR days, when the EC sets were 8-car and XC ones 7-car, at line speed you could tell the difference... by the brakes! , and there has to be a allowance for a train running with one or more brake isolated. A train would be allowed to run with a certain percentage of its brakes isolated and if there was more isolated than normal, the speed of the train would also have to be reduced. The speed's reduced for any brakes isolated, 10 below linespeed for one coach, and 20 below for two. 'At caution' beyond that and the above restrictions do not apply to class 67s as they have very good brakes!! 67s have special dispensation to run at 100 light engine when on Thunderbird duties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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