Results - Wishlist Poll 2014

[Oldddudders]

Sorry? Flying Scotsman? One off?

 

SNIP

 

There needs to be a bit more of a responsible attitude around here about the models we ask for.

Yes, "Sandwich", "Merry Hampton" or "Gay Crusader" - to quote three of the not very many I actually saw - would not sell even half as well as the Scotsman. It sells because of its fame, not because it is just any Gresley pacific.

 

I have a totally responsible attitude to what I ask for - "would I buy it?" is the only criterion.

[Lochinvar]

Guilty as charged,sir. The results from the Scottish jury are disappointing but hardly unexpected. The basic facts of Scottish-themed modelling aren't favourable: there are too few of "us" (ie,Scottish-theme modellers) and too many of "them" ( ie,potential pre-grouping prototypes). But even if we could agree to coalesce around one or two prototypes,I fear that we would still be relieving ourselves into the prevailing airflow. In the likely continuing absence of what we ideally want,it's a question of making best use of what is available. In my own case,this means using a "Jinty" ,rather than the preferred Caley or NB 0-6-0T, as a yard pilot and a Fairburn/Standard tank,rather than a Caley 0-4-4T, as station shunter. Both reasonably credible scenarios.

 

There is always kit-building of course,but I'm one of those that must confess to having had part-completed kits lying around for ages (about 40 yrs in the case of a K's 439 class!). Someone on here was making that very point recently.

 

DR

[ScRSG]

Still don't fully understand why Duchesses were included in the poll given the Hornby model due to be released in another guise shortly. I can just see the point of 46256 and 7 given their differences.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry? Flying Scotsman? One off?

 

CoT has a long term future as other Cities have been produced,

But people are already tired of DoG and offloading them on eBay. Few have the layouts to run them and no-one needs two. Likewise soon Cock o' the North.

 

If companies like Hornby are to survive in the detailed model railway business they need to be encouraged to produce a proper and sustained range of products that future modellers will want to buy in large numbers. Encouraging them to produce unusual locos or those in experimental form may please the modeller who has everything else but does nothing for the sustainable future of the hobby.

MN 35001 in experimental form? How would you react if you read Hornby are going to produce an updated super-detail Stanier Princess Royal but the only loco in the class that it would ever produce will be 6202?

 

There needs to be a bit more of a responsible attitude around here about the models we ask for.

Out there somewhere there are several thousand people who buy engines for their trainsets, or their son's, grandson's or nephew's trainset and no doubt more than a handful who buy them for female offspring or relatives.  They recognise Hornby as a long established brand (without knowing the history) which they can trust and the nearest they have got to 'railway modelling' is probably picking up a copy of a model railway magazine and idly glancing through it.  They, or the recipients, no doubt happily run a mix of engines in pre 1948 alongside modern diesels and with a mix of coaching stock - and they have fun until, in many cases, they grow out of 'trainsets' and move on to other things; some turn into railway modellers.

 

And if Hornby, in particular, can't capture the bulk purchasing power of that market they are probably sunk in their present form, certainly their model railway arm would need to change massively.  And I doubt if many of their Dogs or whatever will appear on Ebay or junk stalls for some years to come - because they are in a different world from 'railway modellers' (whatever they happen to be).

 

Apologies for veering OT.

[Forester]

 

I have a totally responsible attitude to what I ask for - "would I buy it?" is the only criterion.

 

I think "would the producer be able to rename/renumber it and sell more next year and after" is a more responsible criterion given the fragility of many of our current model railway producers' balance sheets and the difficulty new railway modellers currently have in buying off the shelf a range of typical and matching rolling stock for their desired epoch.

That is if we want the hobby to survive.....

[Oldddudders]

I think "would the producer be able to rename/renumber it and sell more next year and after" is a more responsible criterion given the fragility of many of our current model railway producers' balance sheets and the difficulty new railway modellers currently have in buying off the shelf a range of typical and matching rolling stock for their desired epoch.

That is if we want the hobby to survive.....

Are you serious? Do you think I am going to deliberately distort poll results by guessing which models would sell best and lend themselves to renumbering? I think that's called tactical voting and simply debases the whole process, I'm afraid.

[The Black Hat]

Ah... but this idea of one offs was something I eluded to in the first look at the results list. The novel engines had been produced as Olddudders mentions that sold off the idea of fame and reputation. Everyone had heard of Flying Scotsman or Mallard and their continued place in Hornbys collection for sale is a testament to that reputation. In ways, Tornado has joined such a list. The idea of the one tooling for an A1 shows that such models sell to modellers but also are for many children the train set engine of choice and the entry into the hobby. Even with the general public the idea of steam is still more nostalgic and interesting than diesel.

 

However, the new area of the market is for more one offs. The Duke, P2, City and C1 will all feature on this list (even if some Western region modellers gained other Citys as a result) as there are some engines in some types that the modellers want to have. Up until recently the idea of the Duke being a one off meant for its very nature that it was not going to be made. The shift in opinion for such one offs means that engines like the W1 topped the LNE area poll as people rushed to support it and model that alongside the A4, P2, etc, but as others have mentioned its a one off and repeat purchases of something like a J27 or B16 would in the longer term be more likely to make more money off repeat sales when batches are produced and then required again. The interesting part to this is that companies are actively looking to develop more than one model. Bachmanns use of the Compound chassis has seen city, midland and C1 produced, while the chassis for the P2 will apparently mean the A4 style version is a possibility. As a result something like the B16 with 3 varients could hopefully be counted as one model with seperate sub-classes factored into development and production, its combined score took it much higher as a result. But dont forget. Hornby have shifted away from this one off nature somewhat too, taking on Bachmann with heavy freight stuff with numbers beginning with a 6 largely. The O1, L1, B1 and soon to be K1 all come in a red box.

 

The poll has shifted to novel engines but this in turn is based upon the companies offering them when they were requested, as with the popular engine classes done, it brought them into areas where they would likely make just as much money as a conventional model based on repeat sales but say with "limited geographical coverage" or short working life, or few liveries to choose from. Hornby have shown what can be done by maximising the potential from the Duke with various guises. Its our own fault that this has happened. Bachmann have modelled most of the popular midland machines or will do so, the LNE is so split in regions it makes it a minefield to choose in and the Western lot are wanting retooled engines of older types that no longer match the current standard. Scotland doesnt get a look in as its results are split into Midland and LNE (might be an idea of them to be seperate as in Scotish Region) while finally the Southern still has a few examples like the Merch in a spam can, the S15 and U class but then what?

 

The Southern area is lucky because shops are comissioning yet more novelty items to cherry pick the small runs of types that are quaint and popular. One of those little must haves to sit alongside all the main stuff in a 'look what turned up' pose, but again just how much longer can that last before other choices become more suitable, especially when it doesnt matter where the shop is when people model locations far and wide with magaizines and online forums allowing purchases by distance. A G5 from Kernow for example is equally a good prospect as a novel Scottish engine.

 

Its all interesting to compare, especially with new trends coming through partly because of the polls success and popularity. Many of the engines now being produced over the years have factored into our discussions at some point, but please S&D 7F 2-8-0 No.53807 was never a north east engine!!!!

[Devo63]

Thank you to the poll team for the trouble you went to organizing the survey and compiling the results.

 

I was interested to see the various results for the GWR subjects. I agree that the toplight coaches would be difficult to produce while keeping everyone happy because of all the variations but also believe, as others have mentioned above, that a few variations would be useful for making up trains of mixed consists often seen in photos. A brake composite and an all 3rd in post 1927 scheme would be at the top of my buying list if they were to become available.

 

Something I would like to see included in a future poll would be the three Collett ' main line and city' articulated of 1925. These lasted until about 1960 with very little change so, with livery variations, could provide both GWR & BR(WR) modellers with a six coach train only about four foot long. Even though they were not widely used I'm sure most GWR fans would apply Rule 1 and obtain a set. I'm currently trying to scratch build a set which is one sure way of having an RTR model announced within days of completion.

 

Dave    

[Dunsignalling]

Guilty as charged,sir. The results from the Scottish jury are disappointing but hardly unexpected. The basic facts of Scottish-themed modelling aren't favourable: there are too few of "us" (ie,Scottish-theme modellers) and too many of "them" ( ie,potential pre-grouping prototypes). But even if we could agree to coalesce around one or two prototypes,I fear that we would still be relieving ourselves into the prevailing airflow. In the likely continuing absence of what we ideally want,it's a question of making best use of what is available. In my own case,this means using a "Jinty" ,rather than the preferred Caley or NB 0-6-0T, as a yard pilot and a Fairburn/Standard tank,rather than a Caley 0-4-4T, as station shunter. Both reasonably credible scenarios.

 

There is always kit-building of course,but I'm one of those that must confess to having had part-completed kits lying around for ages (about 40 yrs in the case of a K's 439 class!). Someone on here was making that very point recently.

 

DR

I don't think the difficulty you describe is limited to Scottish pre-group prototypes.

 

There is a pyramid effect that means the further back you look, the more choice there is. Fair enough, the buy-everything-collector and the run-anything-modeller will do just what it says on the tin but, in my experience, most people stick to a theme.

 

There are good reasons for doing so. It makes your layout more convincing, stops you going bust and means you still have enough room in your home to lie down at night!

 

Manufacturers have to produce enough of any given model to make it both affordable and profitable. To do that, they must cover the preferred themes of the greatest number of customers by picking prototypes that fit, not only into their pre-grouping niche, but into a wider territory after grouping, at least into the first decade of BR, preferably the second and are ideally extant in preservation.

 

That cuts things down quite a bit. To take some existing models as examples, LSWR M7 and T9 locos migrated to most parts of the Southern system, as did the SECR Ns. Hence, all three have been repeated on a good few occasions with most T9 variations catered for (though Hornby have barely scratched the surface where the M7 is concerned). It will be interesting to see if Bachmann's SECR C Class, a prototype that "played away" much less, will achieve the same longevity as their Mogul.

 

"Celebrity" locos such as the Beattie Well Tanks and Adams Radials, like Hornby's P2, fall outside the normal calculations; locos that existed (at least in periods that most people model) in small numbers and worked in quite tightly defined areas most of the time. That is why I was surprised at Hornby choosing the P2 when they did. They seem to have done OK out of it (though my local dealer still had both versions in stock last week) and, no doubt, there will be a surge of interest if they re-run it once the new build loco is out and about.

 

The air-smoothed MN is, IMHO, a potentially tricky proposition. The first ones were built during WW2, not an especially popular modelling era, and their appearance changed fairly sustantially before the end of the war let alone by nationalisation (though not so drastically as the P2s!)  

 

If one is produced covering the period from "uniformity" to rebuilding, it will please those in the modelling fraternity who want locos for 1950s layouts but may not appeal so much to those in the buy anything/run anything camp who might well hanker after the more dramatic though short lived initial appearance.

 

With most of the numerous, long-lived and wide-ranging classes already covered, what comes next will become ever less predictable. 

 

John

[BMacdermott]

Thank you to the poll team for the trouble you went to organizing the survey and compiling the results.

 

I was interested to see the various results for the GWR subjects. I agree that the toplight coaches would be difficult to produce while keeping everyone happy because of all the variations but also believe, as others have mentioned above, that a few variations would be useful for making up trains of mixed consists often seen in photos. A brake composite and an all 3rd in post 1927 scheme would be at the top of my buying list if they were to become available.

 

Something I would like to see included in a future poll would be the three Collett ' main line and city' articulated of 1925. These lasted until about 1960 with very little change so, with livery variations, could provide both GWR & BR(WR) modellers with a six coach train only about four foot long. Even though they were not widely used I'm sure most GWR fans would apply Rule 1 and obtain a set. I'm currently trying to scratch build a set which is one sure way of having an RTR model announced within days of completion.

 

Dave    

 

Many thanks Dave.

 

I'll certainly put the 1925 articulated stock on the Agenda for you. 

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Ozexpatriate]

The people that are likely most acutely aware of ‘inconsistency’ is the The Poll Team itself. We have grappled for years to try to smooth out the anomalies ,..

Brian,

 

I am very sure that is true. I imagine it has been the subject of much discussion (perhaps more than any other topic) by the Poll Team.

 

I understand the difficulty of the one size fits all problem and very much appreciate all the work all of you do.

 

(I'm just one of those who will vote for toplights regardless of the challenges.)

 

Paraphrasing Farragut at Mobile Bay, "Damn the inconsistencies, full speed ahead!"

[Ozexpatriate]

And here is the problem: The "WOW" factor.

It obsesses Hornby to the detriment of the whole hobby.

 

The fact is most of us don't want the "Wow" factor: we want locos we can USE.

 

Please give us the "USEFUL" factor.

 

Those who collect the oddities of railways, like the P2, the Duke etc may want the Widows Peak -  and in six months it will be forgotten by most and dispatched to eBay or whatever.

Them's fightin' words!

 

Like the Rev. Awdry, I too am a big fan of really useful engines.

 

Nevertheless the 'market' consists of people who buy things because they model places like Evercreech Junction in the summer of 1956, people who buy things just because they are 'interesting', people who buy things like trainsets for others, people who buy things and put them on a shelf (boxed or unboxed) and many who do all of the above.

 

In each case, the value to the manufacturer is exactly the same no matter for what purpose the sale is made.

 

While I understand the value of tooling that can be amortized across a number of liveries and running numbers and live through several years in the catalogue, I observe the manufacturers doing this less than they used to. (Where are those olive SR Maunsell coaches now?)

 

What is most important to a manufacturer is knowing that what they produce will sell and sell quickly.

 

Models with "wow" factor do this as do many "useful" locomotives. Surely at the end of the day it is the manufacturer's choice as to what they think will give them the greatest return on their investment?

 

The purpose of the poll is for us to say what we would purchase, were it manufactured.

[MJI]

One thing people are always forgetting (but not the manufacturers) are the preserved vehicles.

 

Flying Scotsman is popular because it still exists, same as City of Truro.

 

BR Blue modellers can buy quite a few models and run them legitametly..

 

I can run B430 and 75069 next to each other as mine are both 1985 condition, I can run my Class 50s and 47s, even my 9F

[The Black Hat]

Like the Rev. Awdry, I too am a big fan of really useful engines.

 

How come theres no story bout a J21 or Q6 then!!

[DerekEm8]

Whilst there is much discussion on this thread about other companies/ regions (all very interesting I'm sure) but what about the strange disparities in the LMS listings.

 

1 Midland 0-10-0 - The Lickey Banker 'Big Bertha' - what other loco in the country had a more restricted area of operation than this one ? I've never yet seen or heard of a model of Lickey , although I suppose it did venture to Derby Works every few years.

NUMBER 1 on the LMS list 

 

2  LMS Period lll Pull & Push sets - hauled by what ? -an Ivatt 2-6-2T that is due an update.

NUMBER 1 on the LMS Coaches list

 

3  LMS suburban (non lavatory) stock.. There are 3 LMS 2-6-4T (Fowler, Stanier and Ivatt) available and only the dated Airfix/Dapol non- corridor lavatory cross country sets available - but not true suburban stock.

NUMBER 5 on the LMS Coaches list

 

And in all the company categories BIG (Locos, Coaches etc) seems to be popular.

Where are all these BIG layouts

 

Yours

Confused of Lancashire

[BMacdermott]

Hello Derek

 

The BR Standard Class 2 2-6-2T (84xxx) is a prime candidate to work with the LMS Push-Pull sets. It was in 13th overall position. The LMS Non-gangwayed Non-lavatory stock was in the 'high polling segment' (as were the PP sets).

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[BMacdermott]

 

(I'm just one of those who will vote for toplights regardless of the challenges.)

 

Paraphrasing Farragut at Mobile Bay, "Damn the inconsistencies, full speed ahead!"

 

Hello Oz

 

Speaking personally, I'll still vote for the Toplights, too!

 

I like the quote in the second line above! Whilst The Team perhaps wouldn't put it quite like that, it does sum up what we have to do. If we went into the minutest of detail, we'd have a Poll that met everyone's individual wants - but it would be so unwieldy no-one would vote! If we did take the 'detail route', we'd never actually run The Poll.

 

The mantra we work under is: Better than it was last year; not as good as it will be next year.

 

A fair number of the improvements over the years have been directly due to your comments. They occasionally give us a headache - all those dates for example! - but The Poll is better for it in the long term.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[DerekEm8]

Hello Derek

 

The BR Standard Class 2 2-6-2T (84xxx) is a prime candidate to work with the LMS Push-Pull sets. It was in 13th overall position. The LMS Non-gangwayed Non-lavatory stock was in the 'high polling segment' (as were the PP sets).

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

Brian,

 

I was not disputing the results but was commenting on the disparity of them from an LMS point of view.

 

If I had included the BR period a number of other locos BR 2-6-4T &  2-6-2T etc could have been added to those available.

[The Black Hat]

Whilst there is much discussion on this thread about other companies/ regions (all very interesting I'm sure) but what about the strange disparities in the LMS listings.

 

1 Midland 0-10-0 - The Lickey Banker 'Big Bertha' - what other loco in the country had a more restricted area of operation than this one ? I've never yet seen or heard of a model of Lickey , although I suppose it did venture to Derby Works every few years.

NUMBER 1 on the LMS list 

 

2  LMS Period lll Pull & Push sets - hauled by what ? -an Ivatt 2-6-2T that is due an update.

NUMBER 1 on the LMS Coaches list

 

3  LMS suburban (non lavatory) stock.. There are 3 LMS 2-6-4T (Fowler, Stanier and Ivatt) available and only the dated Airfix/Dapol non- corridor lavatory cross country sets available - but not true suburban stock.

NUMBER 5 on the LMS Coaches list

 

And in all the company categories BIG (Locos, Coaches etc) seems to be popular.

Where are all these BIG layouts

 

Yours

Confused of Lancashire

 

Are you surprised? The big engines for passenger are done by Hornby, being the Stanier designs of  Princess, Duchcess, Rebuilt Royal Scot, Black 5 and 8F. Bachmann come in with their ususal freight and medium sized engines like the Ivatt 2 and 4, the Midland 3F, 4F and now coal tanks, Jinty's etc. Should the Ivatt 2MT-T get an upgraded chassis as expected it does leave Midland region with odd novelties left. The want for Big Bertha is this idea now that one offs are suddenly viable and that the banker is the Midland equivalent of the Duke, or P2. This then ties in with the ideas of a range, should this be produced everyone modelling the Midland would still probably get one, just for it to trundle through regardless. While I agree more links between branch/suburban stock and engines is needed, this is still true of most regions the companies try to supply, although of them all the Southern region I think comes out best, helped more by shop comissioned models too. 

 

But with the next engines being ever so more obtuce, it would be interesting to compare which engines are chosen for which areas when further announcements are made.    

[BMacdermott]

Hello Derek

 

I'm speaking personally here (and not with my Poll Team hat on). I agree with your query on why the disparity in LMS.

 

I find the same in LNER & Constituents to an extent. The B2 always polls low, but was an intrinsic part of GE section services. I literally got fed up with seeing them when I was a short-trouser train spotter in the late 50s....but how I'd love a model or two now! It's great to see the Quad and Quint Arts up high, but the GE section Diag.265 etc non-gangwayeds, Diag.9 etc 52ft 6in stock and the Steel Panel 5-sets are way down low. 

 

I was once told by Hornby that people like me (and possibly you) - who might be described as having studied railways in depth and are able to put things in historical and regional context - are in the minority when it comes to their customers. Whether it's the same with Bachmann et al, I don't know. Hornby produce plenty of Pullmans, but all those in The Poll were in the 'low polling segment' except the 1928 Queen of Scots cars, which were in the lower 'middle' and CIWL Night Ferry in 'high'.

 

Putting my Poll Team hat on again, I can say quite categorically that emails we receive in the Team email box in reference to Hornby are very different to postings here. Model railways encompass a broad church - perhaps that's what makes the subject so interesting.

 

Brian (partly personal, partly Poll Team, as indicated above)

[Mallard60022]

I've seen a model of Bromsgrove; it was in BRM a few years back. However, it was a later era than Big Bertha.

Phil

[GordonC]

For future Polls could more categories of Mark 1 TPO coaches be added?

 

There were several diagrams of sorting and stowage vehicles with both large and small windows and various combinations of large and small doors. Bachmann have only currently tackled Diagram 720 and there was up to 733 as the Brake Stowage which appears in the poll.

[Chimer]

And here is the problem: The "WOW" factor.

It obsesses Hornby to the detriment of the whole hobby.

 

The fact is most of us don't want the "Wow" factor: we want locos we can USE.

 

Who "us" ?

 

Responders to the poll - certainly.

Members of RMWeb - probably.

Everybody who might buy somebody a train for Christmas - certainly not.

 

I suspect Hornby know their principal market pretty well ......

[BMacdermott]

For future Polls could more categories of Mark 1 TPO coaches be added?

 

There were several diagrams of sorting and stowage vehicles with both large and small windows and various combinations of large and small doors. Bachmann have only currently tackled Diagram 720 and there was up to 733 as the Brake Stowage which appears in the poll.

 

Hello Gordon

 

I'll put them on the Agenda for you.

 

We will probably have to some 'selective compression' though (with this and others). We are hoping to keep The Poll content to about the 800 mark for N which means 00 will be about 720 (it was 722 this year). Just two extra items in each of the 21 categories would put us up close to 850 - it's very easy 'to put on weight'!

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Legend]

But in the "good old days" Richard Lines at Triang didn't pander to Wishlists , he produced attractive models such as the Caley 123 , Rocket, Lord of the Isles, which generated their own market

 

While congratulating the Wish List team , who have produced a great tool, it is a little predictable where every standard class or large Pacific (Un rebuilt MN) is listed. There surely is still some place in the hobby for flair and something different that enthuses and creates that market. Bachmann should know this from their SECR C class that sold out .So how about a Maroon Claughton or, yes I know I keep on banging on about it, a nice Caley Blue 812 0-6-0. I'm sure they would sell.