N Gauge Class 390 Pendolino (post Kickstarter) with Rapido

[Revolution Ben]

 

 

Hi Steve, Vistiean,

 

Of course, no one will pledge for every crowd sourced Kickstarter that follows; I suspect very few could afford to!

 

But I think people have identified that this is the first one with a realistic chance of succeeding (kick-starter sidekick prediction now at 89%) and for that reason they want to be part of something that will make model railway history.

 

Also, it proves the concept and will generate lots of coverage in the model railway press and, once the CAD drawings and test shots appear will become very real.

 

For this reason, it will I think create a mood to support further Kickstarter projects in the very conservative model railway market. Other schemes may fail or succeed, but every backer will know this one did succeed and that they were a part of it.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[Stevelewis]

Why not start your own Kickstarter for a Trans Pennine then rather than being another one of the "nothing for me here" brigade?

I have  no  intention  of  getting  involved  with  Kickstarters,  Model  railways  is  my  Hobby  only,  my  employment  as  an  Account manager   takes  care  of  my   WORKING time

 

I do not  consider  my self  to  be one  of  the ' nothing  for  me  here brigade'  a comment  I  find  very  insulting,  for  your  info  I model in several  scales covering  UK  Continental  and  USA  outline,  surely  I  am  not  expected  to  have  an  interest in  EVERYTHING  with  flanged  wheels!!

 

As  some  seem  to disagree  with  this  post  I  am  very  curious  as  to  which  statement  of  fact  you  DISAGREE  with??

 

Is  it  because  I do not  wish  to be  involved  with  starting  a  Kickstarter  for  the  TPE?

 

Or is  because  I do  not feel  that  i am not  one  of  the  'Nothing  for  me  here  Brigade'

Edited January 16, 2015 by Stevelewis

[Andy Y]

I think the relevance of the comment from Lyneux Steve is that this is a topic about the Pendolino project rather than any other speculative items; someone dropping in to say they're not pledging for it but you would have had something else on offer doesn't help the guys who are trying to concentrate on getting positive reaction as this phase of the project nears its most important date.

[Revolution Mike]

Steve -  this is Ben and my hobby as well! I think Guy's point was that things like Kickstarter (and other crowdfunding mechanisms) democratise the selection of models for manufacture.  It also allows more "marginal" business cases to be produced.

 

Cheers, Mike

[scottystitch]

I too really want this to succeed, (even though I'm modeling a western region branch line in the 1960's in OO gauge). But I'm sorry, it makes no sense to pledge money for a train that I will never use, on the basis that a success now will cause future projects to succeed. What if project number two is also something that I don’t want, should I also support that on the basis that one failure will prevent project number three?

It is surely a manufacture’s dream: By using this investment model, they don’t to have invest anything upfront, and people will buy it even if they don’t want it, because they are supporting a good cause!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against crowd sourcing (I have invested in a couple for 3D printers and to help friends produce CD's)  If there were a prototype that someone was trying to crowd source that I actually would buy if it came on the market as a retail model, then I would have no doubts at all about pledging for it. There is not really much difference between that and a preorder these days.

Firstly, the problem with this line is that, if this Kickstarter fails, after all the effort and publicity that has gone into it, is anyone likely to be around to set up or try and promote a future one for something that you do like? I think if this fails it will be a long time before anyone attempts anything on this scale again. As has been suggested, there's almost a guarantee that you'll make your money back on this once it's produced, because there are more than a few modellers of the same mind as you that if it something came on the retail market they'd buy it. There is already a second hand market, ready-made.

 

Secondly, if this fails, it is a long time before anyone tries a second time. If it succeeds and a second project hot on the heels of it fails, at least there is a 50% success rate to point to, to justify a third attempt. Who knows, that second or third attempt could be something for you. If it's not, then fine don't support it, the concept would already have been proved by this one. But for the good of a new wayto bringan  n-guage model to market, support this one if you can. I think you would be saying this same if it was a model you wanted.

The way I see it, this is make or break for crowdfunding a model that the manufacturers wouldn't normally touch on this scale.

 

For the record, I don't want a Pendo either, it has no place in mid-sixties Scotland, but it is a good cause to support this project, for the good of n-gauge. What's wrong with that? If it succeeds and another prototype comes along that looks like it needs the numbers to succeed, I'd do it all over again, even if it was another prototype I didn't want.

Edited January 15, 2015 by scottystitch

[lyneux]

I have  no  intention  of  getting  involved  with  Kickstarters,  Model  railways  is  my  Hobby  only,  my  employment  as  an  Account manager   takes  care  of  my   WORKING time

 

I think you might have misinterpreted my suggestion, which is: if you would like a Trans Pennine unit so much, then why not (as Mike and Ben have done) start a crowd-sourced campaign to produce one? Mike and Ben both work full time but have still found the time to "project manage" the N gauge pendo project. Mike and Ben can no doubt elaborate on how much time they have spent on this, but I doubt it has come anywhere near close to what they spend at work (without insulting them!).

 

Guy

[njee20]

I think Andy put it most eloquently - pitching in to a thread about a very specific product to say that you don't want one, but you do want a different product, only to be offended when it's suggested that a bit of pro-activity could yield results, is a little off!

 

89% on the combobulator is great, and we've had £600 more pledged since that last updated.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Taken the plunge and put another sneaky little pledge in - a nine-car DC version. As someone else said, interest rates are rubbish at the moment! 

[Vistisen]

<snip>

The way I see it, this is make or break for crowdfunding a model that the manufacturers wouldn't normally touch on this scale.

 

<snip>

That is exactly my problem with it. As I said in my post, this is a dream scenario for manufacturers. They get all the cash flow upfront, have NO risk what so ever of having unsold stock, + they can in principle produce any old rubbish and the customer cannot refuse to buy it when it lands as a stinking pile on the shelf… because they already HAVE bought it.

I’m have no doubt that Rapido will do an excellent job, and I have put my money where my mouth is, I have ordered 100% of the OO gauge products they have announced.

But… just imagine how RM-Webbers would have reacted if another well-known producer of red boxes, came up with the idea of saying you can only have your locomotives if you pay in 100% in advance, cover all our costs and take your chances on the quality, with no chances of backing out if you’re not satisfied.´

If this crowd-sourcing project succeeds, I can imagine that others will follow, and that is fine by me. But as David Jones has freely admitted in his first post for his crowd sourced class 71

 ‘By crowd sourcing the finance for this model I am able to start work almost immediately with the laser scanning (Thanks to the NRM) and cad/cam production, whereas otherwise it would take up to 2 years rather than the possible 1.’

If it is all right for the small firms, then it must be all right for the big ones as well. Design and research is the expensive bit of production, along with risk of producing too many or (as Exeter showed) too few examples. I expect that the big boys will watch the future of crowd sourcing with interest. In a few years’ time their new model announcements could be in the form of ‘We’ll produce these models if there are enough takers who put their money up front’ Is that what we really want?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Vistiaen

[woodenhead]

I don't disagree with you Vistiaen, but I don't think now and in this thread is the place for this discussion.

 

The Kickstarter campaign for the Pendolino is now in it's last couple of days, I think this thread needs to remain positive and focussed on the matter in hand of Ben and Mike attaining their target pledges.

[Vistisen]

I don't disagree with you Vistiaen, but I don't think now and in this thread is the place for this discussion.

 

The Kickstarter campaign for the Pendolino is now in it's last couple of days, I think this thread needs to remain positive and focussed on the matter in hand of Ben and Mike attaining their target pledges.

You beat me to it. I have just reread my reply and this is not the right place for it. I DO want this project to go ahead, and not just because of my Brit's innate championing of the ‘underdog’. I apologize for hi-jacking this thread.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Vistiaen

[Tricky-CRS]

Buy definition the big companies don't need to do this as they have capital to use. Ben and Mike both individuals do not, it is well known the pendolino was highly unlikely in N anytime soon. If modellers want a certain prototype and the big boys aren't interested then why not go down this route, it is up to use what we spend our money on and when.

 

I do not want a pendolino but do back a lot of projects on Kickstarter so have pledged a £10 to help and show support for my hobby as a whole.

 

[Revolution Mike]

That is exactly my problem with it. As I said in my post, this is a dream scenario for manufacturers. They get all the cash flow upfront, have NO risk what so ever of having unsold stock, + they can in principle produce any old rubbish and the customer cannot refuse to buy it when it lands as a stinking pile on the shelf… because they already HAVE bought it.

I’m have no doubt that Rapido will do an excellent job, and I have put my money where my mouth is, I have ordered 100% of the OO gauge products they have announced.

But… just imagine how RM-Webbers would have reacted if another well-known producer of red boxes, came up with the idea of saying you can only have your locomotives if you pay in 100% in advance, cover all our costs and take your chances on the quality, with no chances of backing out if you’re not satisfied.´

If this crowd-sourcing project succeeds, I can imagine that others will follow, and that is fine by me. But as David Jones has freely admitted in his first post for his crowd sourced class 71

 ‘By crowd sourcing the finance for this model I am able to start work almost immediately with the laser scanning (Thanks to the NRM) and cad/cam production, whereas otherwise it would take up to 2 years rather than the possible 1.’

If it is all right for the small firms, then it must be all right for the big ones as well. Design and research is the expensive bit of production, along with risk of producing too many or (as Exeter showed) too few examples. I expect that the big boys will watch the future of crowd sourcing with interest. In a few years’ time their new model announcements could be in the form of ‘We’ll produce these models if there are enough takers who put their money up front’ Is that what we really want?

 

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here - it is absolutely not a blank cheque for manufacturers to produce any old tat. 

 

The money is not just handed over willy-nilly to the manufacturer, but at pre-agreed stages which incentivise the manufacturer to produce the model to time and to an agreed level of quality.

 

Ben and I are in effect acting on trust for all the people who pledge to make this project happen (and will be asking for their input at various stages of development as well as providing feedback ourselves).

 

Cheers, Mike

[scottystitch]

It's not a case of the manufacturer coming to us saying give us your cash or no model. It's Mike and Ben going to the manufacturer and saying, no-one wants to build this, if we fund the R&D will you make it for us? Theres no excess stock because by its very nature, supply equals demand.

 

Or have I got it all wrong?.....

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Vistiaen,

 

I am more than happy to have this debate - I think you raise interesting points, genuine concerns and I am happy to answer them - after all, I am putting my money and my mouth (perhaps, too much mouth sometimes!!) into this too.

 

Firstly, I see this as modellers coming together to tell manufacturers what we want, and proactively making sure they have the funding (and, in this case, much of the research and licensing permits) to get on and do it.  So turning your question on its head: Is there any reason we wouldn't want this?  We get what we want, and we don't have to wait either for the manufacuturers to deign to select it (from the hosts of other ideas/suggestions/wishlists) nor to wait its turn in the queue when their own funding is committed to other items.

 

Secondly, there are some models, especially in N, where potential sales are debatable.  Manufacturers are rightly quite risk-averse; they have bills and employees to pay. This financing model enables those of us who want a model to come together and share some of that risk so that we all benefit.

 

Thirdly:  This is not just about crowd-sourcing the cash; it's about crowd-sourcing the product.  Our backers will be sent the CAD drawings and encouraged to give feedback.  They will all be offered a say in which particular models are produced; and in the packaging designs.  Having seen Rapido's GMD-1 in N, and other models in N and OO (not least the APT-E!), we are 100% confident of Rapido's committment to quality and accuracy.  CJM - having thoroughly tested a Rapido N loco chassis - said in terms of smoothness, haulage and quality it was matched only by Kato.  We are confident the product will be of the highest quality and fidelity and I trust Jason Shron and his colleagues at Rapido completely on this, or I would not be involved in the project.

 

EDIT: Scottystitch above - yes; that's right.  We are treating the manufacturers as partners we can work with, rather than simply suppliers who give us what they want.  And we will only stock what's pledged for via Kickstarter, if it succeeds.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ben A

[Steve-e]

Hi,

 

Will the packaging be unique for those pledging against any future releases?

 

This will give those who pledge more of a collectors item feel for their sets?

 

Thanks

Edited January 15, 2015 by Steve-e

[roundhouse]

Hi,

 

Will the packaging be unique for those pledging against any future releases?

 

This will give those who pledge more of a collectors item feel for their sets?

 

Thanks

Not too bothered personally as will be weathering mine and putting loads of black around the exhaust ports!!!! Edited January 15, 2015 by roundhouse

[Vistisen]

Hi Vistiaen,

 

I am more than happy to have this debate - I think you raise interesting points, genuine concerns and I am happy to answer them - after all, I am putting my money and my mouth (perhaps, too much mouth sometimes!!) into this too.

 

Firstly, I see this as modellers coming together to tell manufacturers what we want, and proactively making sure they have the funding (and, in this case, much of the research and licensing permits) to get on and do it.  So turning your question on its head: Is there any reason we wouldn't want this?  We get what we want, and we don't have to wait either for the manufacuturers to deign to select it (from the hosts of other ideas/suggestions/wishlists) nor to wait its turn in the queue when their own funding is committed to other items.

 

Secondly, there are some models, especially in N, where potential sales are debatable.  Manufacturers are rightly quite risk-averse; they have bills and employees to pay. This financing model enables those of us who want a model to come together and share some of that risk so that we all benefit.

 

Thirdly:  This is not just about crowd-sourcing the cash; it's about crowd-sourcing the product.  Our backers will be sent the CAD drawings and encouraged to give feedback.  They will all be offered a say in which particular models are produced; and in the packaging designs.  Having seen Rapido's GMD-1 in N, and other models in N and OO (not least the APT-E!), we are 100% confident of Rapido's committment to quality and accuracy.  CJM - having thoroughly tested a Rapido N loco chassis - said in terms of smoothness, haulage and quality it was matched only by Kato.  We are confident the product will be of the highest quality and fidelity and I trust Jason Shron and his colleagues at Rapido completely on this, or I would not be involved in the project.

 

EDIT: Scottystitch above - yes; that's right.  We are treating the manufacturers as partners we can work with, rather than simply suppliers who give us what they want.  And we will only stock what's pledged for via Kickstarter, if it succeeds.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Thanks for your gracious reply. I really don't want to sabotage this project. I think you are doing a grand job, but as you say. This is a first! When you reach your target, then I suspect the real work is just beginning. You ( in Danish I can make that a plural 'you') will be able to do us modelers a great service by documenting how you go from here, How will the quality control process work in practice? I have a lot of questions about the process. (Probably a result of working both as a project manager, and a managed project worker for many years). But I respect totally your need to focus on fase 1 getting the backing.  I suggest a blogg that documents both the highs and the lows that will undoubtable come durng the course of the next year. This will be invaluable for those who follow in your footsteps.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Vistiaen

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Steve-e

 

We haven't finalised exactly how the various permutations will be packaged (eg will the 9-car sets be in the same pack as 11-car sets but with two empty "slots" allowing modellers to add additional cars later?) but whatever form they take, we will make sure the Kickstarter ones have a box or outer sleeve or something that makes it clear they are part of the "original" series.  And, of course, they will be the numbers chosen by our backers and therefore identifiable that way too.

 

Not finalised yet, but we may also put an additional sticker or similar on the Poppy Pendolino sets (in consultation with the Royal British Legion) acknowledging their role in raising funds.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[scottystitch]

72%...........

 

c'mon c'mon c'mon!!!

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello all,

 

With two and a half days left for pledging, the Kickstarter total is at £152,500. We're still £57,500 short, and would need pledges equivalent to £23,000 per day to reach the total.

 

That's still possible, but while Mike, Jason and I are still fervently hoping that we will reach our Kickstarter target, with this in mind we would be foolish not to at least have a back-up plan ready.

 

INTRODUCING "PENDO PLAN B"

 

I am delighted to say that Jason and the team at Rapido have taken the decision that the £150K pledged so far is enough to justify this model being produced whether or not the Kickstarter campaign reaches the target.

 

And the even-better news is that, as a reward to those who got us here, Rapido have very generously agreed that anyone who pledges by the deadline will be eligible for the significantly discounted Kickstarter prices.

 

Orders taken after the deadline will be at a higher price which we will announced should the Kickstarter fail.

 

If you have pledged, please also register at our website www.ngaugependolino.com to ensure you can take advantage of the Plan B offer for pledgers.

 

If your Kickstarter identity is not immediately apparent (a small number of then Kickstarter profiles do not have obvious names) then please let us know so we can match up email addresses to backers so we can later ensure every backer receives the models they are entitled to.

 

Pledging for the Kickstarter does not commit you to taking up the subsequent offer to buy models via Plan B.

 

The model will be produced according to our original schedule and is expected to be delivered early in 2016. The first step will be laser scanning the Pendolino in late January.

 

Having said that, if we can succeed with the Kickstarter it will be an amazing achievement and set a significant precedent for other ideas and projects.

 

We are also very proud to say that so far we've had well over 50 pledges for the Poppy Pendolino, meaning that at least £500 should be raised for the Royal British Legion.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[BR(S)]

Hello all,

 

With two and a half days left for pledging, the Kickstarter total is at £152,500. We're still £57,500 short, and would need pledges equivalent to £23,000 per day to reach the total.

 

That's still possible, but while Mike, Jason and I are still fervently hoping that we will reach our Kickstarter target, with this in mind we would be foolish not to at least have a back-up plan ready.

 

INTRODUCING "PENDO PLAN B"

 

I am delighted to say that Jason and the team at Rapido have taken the decision that the £150K pledged so far is enough to justify this model being produced whether or not the Kickstarter campaign reaches the target.

 

And the even-better news is that, as a reward to those who got us here, Rapido have very generously agreed that anyone who pledges by the deadline will be eligible for the significantly discounted Kickstarter prices.

 

Orders taken after the deadline will be at a higher price which we will announced should the Kickstarter fail.

 

If you have pledged, please also register at our website www.ngaugependolino.com to ensure you can take advantage of the Plan B offer for pledgers.

 

If your Kickstarter identity is not immediately apparent (a small number of then Kickstarter profiles do not have obvious names) then please let us know so we can match up email addresses to backers so we can later ensure every backer receives the models they are entitled to.

 

Pledging for the Kickstarter does not commit you to taking up the subsequent offer to buy models via Plan B.

 

The model will be produced according to our original schedule and is expected to be delivered early in 2016. The first step will be laser scanning the Pendolino in late January.

 

Having said that, if we can succeed with the Kickstarter it will be an amazing achievement and set a significant precedent for other ideas and projects.

 

We are also very proud to say that so far we've had well over 50 pledges for the Poppy Pendolino, meaning that at least £500 should be raised for the Royal British Legion.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

 

I wondered whether this initial fundraising attempt might be enough to show someone with the funds to back the project that it was worth proceeding with anyway.  I thought Richard Branson might come along at the last second and add the missing amount, with relevant publicity of course!

 

A reasonable Plan B: those who have tried to make it happen can enjoy the lower price and will be getting exactly what they signed up to; others can still purchase a model, allowing them to save up if they should need to.

Edited January 16, 2015 by BR(S)

[Steve Purves]

Plan B, does that require the monies up front in the next few weeks or will it be a depositi scheme like the APT?

[Revolution Mike]

Steve

 

We are still finalising the exact details but it is looking like we will have a relatively short period for 50% deposits for Kickstarter backers. We will also open up pre-orders to non-Kickstarter backers but at a higher price.

 

We still have just under 2.5 days left on the Kickstarter campaign and it is far from impossible that we will still make it. Indeed one of the thoughts behind announcing Plan B before the end of the Kickstarter campaign was that it might be enough of a tipping point to push us over the line.

 

Cheers, Mike

[roundhouse]

So this weekend if I have understood this correctly, do we tell exhibition visitors who pick up a leaflet that if they pledge by 22.00 on 18th Jan then even if the Kickstarter isn't reached then they will still qualify for the reduced price but if they dont pledge then they will have to pay more?