Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[Poggy1165]

Finding info on these is certainly sparse. Most books if they go earlier than Robinson just do the 4-4-0 and the singles as a way of saying " and this is where the 11b came from (d9 for later incarnations)

There is certainly a niche in the market for a book there but is there enough of a market in the niche to make it worth it? Also does anyone know enough to make it?

Richard

 

I don't think there is a book as such. The RCTS "Green Books" give basic info about those classes which survived 1923. Another useful source, and one which I recommend, is the (relatively rare) British Locomotive Catalogue 1825-1923, volume 5B, but it has no photos in it. I have been collecting GCR photos for years, but it's only in the last 10 or so that I've started to focus on the older stuff. and you don't find such photos every day. (Though I suspect there are loads in the various collections held by the NRM.) The NRM drawings collection is another possibility, but I doubt they have a lot of detailed drawings for the ancient bits of kit I have in mind, as opposed to the odd weight diagram.

 

I doubt there is a market for such a book, although you never know. There are some very obscure railway books out there. I know of one chap qualified to write it (not me!) but I know he's currently tied up with another crucial literary endeavour.

[James Harrison]

I'm quite sure E M Johnson's work on GCR locomotives (in two volumes) was originally intended to be three volumes; Volume 3 dealing with MSLR machines and those taken into stock via amalgamations.  It's referred to in the early pages of Volume 1.  Pity it never materialised. 

[richard i]

I too have been collecting what I can.

And as for books that have been written with limited audience, there is a joke in the club I intermittently attend that there is the "book of left handed GWR fire buckets." If that can have a market then Gcr tank engines has got to.

[Clive Mortimore]

I too have been collecting what I can.

And as for books that have been written with limited audience, there is a joke in the club I intermittently attend that there is the "book of left handed GWR fire buckets." If that can have a market then Gcr tank engines has got to.

Richard

 

I don't like correcting a teacher but if you must quote a title it is " Churchward, GWR left handed fire buckets volume two."

[Compound2632]

The only thing I have on MS&L engines is E.L. Ahrons, Locomotive and Train Working in the Latter Part of the Nineteenth Century Vol. 1 (Heffer, Cambridge: n.d), Ch. 2. Ahrons devotes as many pages to the MS&L as he does to the Great Northern. He's mostly concerned with express passenger engines and workings, and of course, given its age, the book is sparsely illustrated but there is a rather nice photo of a Sacre 2-4-0T, No. 447 of 1881 - I take it this is the same class as the one you're building. Used, the caption says, on the Altrincham line*. The tank side and outside frame have been highly polished, the former showing a lozenge pattern. I do like the oval cab windows on some of Sacre's engines - giving them something of a French flavour. 

 

*The text gives more details about the eight engines of this class. They worked all the passenger traffic on the MSJA until 1899; at the time Ahrons wrote (1915), they were used as motor coach engines with one on the Banbury line and another in the Aylesbury district.

 

I'm compelled to add this rather sweet quote about the earlier class of 2-4-0T well tanks that these engines displaced from the Altrincham line:

 

"The details of their design in the Gorton drawing office had been carried through by the late Mr. S.W. Johnson [...] To the end of his career Mr. Johnson always took a paternal interest in these small engines, and on the occasion of his rare visits to Heaton Mersey [...] he invariably had a good look round one of them, to see how they were getting on."

Edited January 11, 2018 by Compound2632

[richard i]

Thanks for the info, as a historian I always enjoy those little vignettes that are found which bring the characters we read about to life. I am starting to turn my mind to the painting of the outside as more of the build is finished.

For the motor working I can only see the addition on the cab roof of the rod. Have I missed other obvious external embellishments?

Richard

[richard i]

I colour it in as it is relaxing, but also helps with the build as i notice detail which i miss just looking at a black and white photo.

It is a poor colouring in and does not look too realistic, but it gives a sense of where i am hoping to head

it is an unbalenced photo too. But you get the idea.

Richard

[richard i]

for inspiration. John Quick's supurb 12am. taken when i was lucky enough to visit back in 2014

If i get anywhere near close to this, i will be a very happy person.

Richard

[richard i]

Just noticed he has painted the inside back of his cab cream and i had started to paint mine green . Looks like a repaint is in order.

Edited January 16, 2018 by richard i

[richard i]

Not much to show as I have concentrated on the cab insides before they get covered.

I have decided as information is limited that the front of the inside would be like a tender loco, so it has red backs to the wheel covers. They are wider than should be, due to narrower oo wheel width. The back from photos might suggest cream was not the colour, some clearly show a "white lining line at the height of the bunker top. However, shots are very limited. As there are clearly two,(at least) different external painting styles then internally it might have changed. I might go for cream for the upper section as the front upper section is cream. India red might be too much in an enclosed cab. Anyone with access to photos, please advise, I have seen about ten, and the cab back is only visible in a couple.

The backhead is just representational. It does have the two tea flasks on the shelf.

Richard.

[Poggy1165]

Not one of my photos shows the interior of the cab with any real clarity, not even under a light. If anything, the back of cab interior appears dark, but that may just be the lighting conditions in which the photos were taken. Annoying, isn't it?

[gr.king]

The only comfort is that the lack of evidence minimises the chances of having your chosen cab colours proved wrong.

[t-b-g]

Another to add to the collection.....

 

 

The loco build is looking lovely. One of the best looking little tank engines.

[richard i]

Another to add to the collection.....

IMG_20180120_172639.jpg

The loco build is looking lovely. One of the best looking little tank engines.

Thanks, I enjoyed driving it when I came round, it also shows a black axel box on the pony wheels, I was erring between that, brass or India red.

I have settled on green as like poggy1165 the interior looks dark. It also looks to have white lining in one which suggests a seperation between black and green, a la the side tanks and cab side sheets.

Thanks for your three views gents.

Richard

[richard i]

The steps are on and hornblock(?) surrounds. I then thought I would add rivets. I counted round the horn blocks, 68 needed. Maybe cut them from styrene individually. Then I had to think about the steps, another 18. Could still do it..........perhaps.

Then looked up at the tank side.

Definitely not, discretion is the better part of valour. Archer's transfer rivets it is then.

As an aside, valour is in the queue to build as one of the next couple of locos I tackle.

Here is to my sanity being stretched by rivet fitting.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

I have got one of these babies in 7mm scale, but it definitely needs renovating as the lining is literally peeling off. Another job in the pipeline; unless I can find a sub-contractor.

 

They are delightful engines. Sadly, the only way to get one is to build it. 

[richard i]

Scratch building is like an onion. Every time I think there is only a little to go. Further examination of photos reveals extra pieces that need fitting.

I had thought it might take three months to complete. It now looks more like six.

There are several reasons this will not be available r-t-r but the biggest is that there are no two photos the same even of the same loco. Too many variations.

Richard

[James Harrison]

It looks like it is getting there- I find it helps not to dwell too much on what still needs to be done but rather just keep plugging away at it.

[richard i]

It looks like it is getting there- I find it helps not to dwell too much on what still needs to be done but rather just keep plugging away at it.

Yes, but you seem to work far faster than I do. I marvel at the speed you can turn your projects round in. If I could work at your rate I might have finished those gcr coaches I promised myself I would get finished in 2016. So far two built. Another three for that rake and another four rakes on top of that.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

I suppose, back in the day, these locos were worked on by individual craftsmen and no one really bothered about details as long as the loco did its job. No one thought: "Heck, we'd better make this class all look exactly alike so modellers in 100 years time will have an easier job." We live in an age where everything is codified, even down to where the vinegar goes on a supermarket shelf. I don't think Gorton worked like that at all. It was all very ad-hoc and practical; albeit the bosses sometimes experimented with new gadgets to see if they were worthwhile.

 

I wonder sometimes if we modellers of the old railways aren't too fussy. 

[richard i]

I suppose, back in the day, these locos were worked on by individual craftsmen and no one really bothered about details as long as the loco did its job. No one thought: "Heck, we'd better make this class all look exactly alike so modellers in 100 years time will have an easier job." We live in an age where everything is codified, even down to where the vinegar goes on a supermarket shelf. I don't think Gorton worked like that at all. It was all very ad-hoc and practical; albeit the bosses sometimes experimented with new gadgets to see if they were worthwhile.

 

I wonder sometimes if we modellers of the old railways aren't too fussy. 

I agree with your view, brand homegenity was not quite as dictatorial as it is now, and would change over the life of the engines at 40 years plus. Lets face it British Airways has changed its logo a few times in the last 40 years, but we still have 737 to fly on as we did back then. Just nice to be correct, better than maybe, better than wrong. It is a sliding scale. At this distance with the information we have i am happy if i am somewhere between maybe and correct.

[richard i]

The cab interior is finally done.

Also done are the brass surrounds for the cab windows. The front ones are from an etch, kindly given me by TW. The back ones both inside and out are a bit thick as they are opened out brass washers. I did not realize at the time that the back of the cab had windows, until closely examining photos.

Now the roof can go on, the rest of the rivets at the back. Painting and coaling.for some reason I am finishing it from the back. After the primer for the boiler was sprayed on, it has all been brush painted -by necessity. Panels are small so hopefully works out okay.

Richard

[richard i]

Cab on, rivets almost done, just the buffer beam to go. God only knows what people did to keep their sanity when they had to apply each one , one at a time.

Just buffer beam rivets to go.

As you can see cab finally fitted. Only pipe runs to do at the back and below the running plate. More work at the front on boiler fittings and springs.

Only time will tell if this painting in stages will pay off as an approach. Certainly made glazing the cab much easier.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

Looks great that. And, if you can build a Sacre 2-4-0t from plastic you can build practically anything. I suppose the hard bit is getting the drawings. Your advantage is that much of the ancient stuff did not really show up on the London Extension.

[Compound2632]

I suppose, back in the day, these locos were worked on by individual craftsmen and no one really bothered about details as long as the loco did its job. No one thought: "Heck, we'd better make this class all look exactly alike so modellers in 100 years time will have an easier job." We live in an age where everything is codified, even down to where the vinegar goes on a supermarket shelf. I don't think Gorton worked like that at all. It was all very ad-hoc and practical; albeit the bosses sometimes experimented with new gadgets to see if they were worthwhile.

 

I wonder sometimes if we modellers of the old railways aren't too fussy. 

 

I'm not convinced of this. For several of the best-known 19th century locomotive engineers, laying out new or improving existing locomotive works was a formative step in their careers. These works (and the private builders) couldn't have been churning out hundreds of 0-6-0 goods engines without some degree of uniformity. With 19th century component manufacturing tolerances there was a good deal of fitting needed but don't forget that Y14 that Stratford Works put together in 9 hrs 47 mins in 1891 - of course, from a standard kit of parts. Not many of us could put together a locomotive kit in that time!

 

Variations would accumulate over time but generally for a purpose. Hence these Sacre 0-4-2Ts started out as Class 12AT and were reclassified 12AM when they were modified for motor train working. Some changes do seem purposeless to us - like removal of the smokebox wing plates - but no doubt somebody at the time had a good reason, or money wouldn't have been spent on the work.

 

Our fussiness as modellers is surely all about getting our models right for the period and location modelled.