Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[Clive Mortimore]

Christmas is good for little but modeling. Tv is reruns etc.

However, if you have to be away from home sometimes the present project can not travel so...

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It is pregrouping. Took three days to put together. Now I have the cattle wagon to run in a pregrouping rake as well as one to run in the grouping rake, ( thanks to Clive).

Back to the main effort now I am back home.

Richard

Hi Richard

 

Thanks. It is a Beetle, a prize cattle van, they were used for transporting bulls mainly and were passenger rated like horse boxes.

[richard i]

Hi Richard

 

Thanks. It is a Beetle, a prize cattle van, they were used for transporting bulls mainly and were passenger rated like horse boxes.

Clive

You are right, you win the prize for correct identification. That is why it is in passenger brown , and the geeks will notice it is numbered in the post 1915 number sequence of passenger stock. Prior to that they were numbered as freight stock, but parkside did not provide a diagram of how to apply the transfers for that so I backed off from doing that as it required extra research and I knew I only wanted it to be a quick project.

Richard

[richard i]

Back to the 12am

It is a lot of two steps forward one step back.

But that is scratch building, or it is for me. Maybe I do not plan enough before I start. Might be why I am an historian rather than an engineer.

Turns out the drawing was wrong as all photos I have found do not show it with wing plates on the smokebox.

Richard

[Clive Mortimore]

Back to the 12am

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It is a lot of two steps forward one step back.

But that is scratch building, or it is for me. Maybe I do not plan enough before I start. Might be why I am an historian rather than an engineer.

Turns out the drawing was wrong as all photos I have found do not show it with wing plates on the smokebox.

Richard

Hi Richard

 

Scratchbuilding is a wee bit like that but it is easier than kit building. I have run out of swear word related insults I can hurl at the kit I am trying to build. I know it was easier to make one out of plastic card as I have already built one of this class but a slightly earlier version. It is a ******** LMS ***** 350 hp **** ** 0-6-0 ***** jackshaft drive ****** shunter, called *******.  I didn't burn my figertips when building my homemade one.

[Poggy1165]

I suspect the wingplates were removed at some point. These engines were rebuilt quite a bit. They were pretty ancient by late GC days. Personally I like the (fairly) early condition with open cab and Parker chimney, before they were auto-fitted. One of the books shows an engine in this condition on the Glossop shuttle. (I have no idea how they ran round at Dinting, but there must have been a way of doing it.)

[richard i]

Hi Richard

 

Scratchbuilding is a wee bit like that but it is easier than kit building. I have run out of swear word related insults I can hurl at the kit I am trying to build. I know it was easier to make one out of plastic card as I have already built one of this class but a slightly earlier version. It is a ******** LMS ***** 350 hp **** ** 0-6-0 ***** jackshaft drive ****** shunter, called *******.  I didn't burn my figertips when building my homemade one.

They both have there pros and cons. But with all the bits laid out with a kit I find I can think through the order I will attack it. Here I have to visualize it in my head. I'm much better with concrete rather than mental puzzles.

[richard i]

I suspect the wingplates were removed at some point. These engines were rebuilt quite a bit. They were pretty ancient by late GC days. Personally I like the (fairly) early condition with open cab and Parker chimney, before they were auto-fitted. One of the books shows an engine in this condition on the Glossop shuttle. (I have no idea how they ran round at Dinting, but there must have been a way of doing it.)

The wings must have gone very early as I have not found a single photo of them fitted. All the variations even on the same loco over a four year period with rivets on the smokebox or not.

I have to say this will be a full cab version as to me that balences the design so much better than the open cab one. Also it hides the lack of floor and wheels, until I come up with a layout of the cab floor levels.

However any person who appreciates a 12am/ 12at is alright in my book.

Richard

[richard i]

The backend has now been started.

The roof has only been placed on and the back has yet to be completed. I will finally fit it when the inside has been fitted. Then insert a floor after painting.

For those worried about the ski jump, the front has not lifted, it looks like the centre has dropped whilst making the curve for the wheel arches!

Will look on its cure. Three layers of laminate I have heard works.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

One tip if I may. Check photos for livery carefully. I have several prints of these engines and they weren't all painted exactly alike. So I strongly suggest following a photo for the particular engine you choose and be prepared for someone to tell you it's wrong. (I was surprised myself, in a way. GC engines were almost a livery a class, but variations within a class - albeit subtle - did rather surprise me.) 

[richard i]

One tip if I may. Check photos for livery carefully. I have several prints of these engines and they weren't all painted exactly alike. So I strongly suggest following a photo for the particular engine you choose and be prepared for someone to tell you it's wrong. (I was surprised myself, in a way. GC engines were almost a livery a class, but variations within a class - albeit subtle - did rather surprise me.)

 

I agree, I had already spotted that some seem to have white lining on the Indian red and others have nothing (red - but does not show) and then as I look for details I am trying to see how much lining the boiler has, the tanks seem to be a white line and then black surround pretty consistantly.

[Poggy1165]

Generally speaking GCR green tank engines had white lining on the frames. The main exception was the 9N (A5) 4-6-2t which were lined red. Why the GC was so varied in its liveries I don't know. Possibly they didn't have a corporate image manual.

 

As an aside, the ex-LDEC Tuxford Works just carried on applying LDEC livery with "Great Central" on the tank or tender. This even included (as my wording implies) some GC standard types which fell into their hands. John Quick's book has more detail. To the best of my knowledge the LDEC 0-4-4 tanks always remained black despite being passenger engines. How Tuxford got away with this I know not, but they were probably using up paint stocks or something. Clearly the High Command were not bothered.

 

In short, GC liveries are a minefield; I would always be exceedingly wary of telling someone their model was painted "wrongly" as deviations from "standard" were quite common, though often very subtle. To give but one example, many people will tell you the 0-6-2ts (LNER classes N4 and N5) were lined out, except during WW1. Some were, perhaps even most. But I have a lovely sharp photo of a station pilot at Nottingham Vic dated 1911, and there's not a hint of lining anywhere on it. And by the way, the "Great Central" on its tank sides looks very much like a 4mm transfer applied to a 7mm model!

[richard i]

Gcr was never flush with cash so allowing tuxford to finish off its stocks of paint made sense. They also sent engines out in works grey for a while as well. That might be interesting to model, but I would have to think carefully which class I would apply that to. Once I have built a model I like a nice paint finish. I saw an Atlantic on sale on eBay in works grey and all I could think was," nice model , shame it is not in the full green livery. " That was a big reason for pushing all the way back to the gcr rather than LNER. The Atlantics were in black in LNER days.

[Poggy1165]

I believe they quite often sent locos out in works grey. There's a (fairly) famous photo of a 4-4-0 in this condition double-heading a train at Woodhead. (The Ffestiniog, a year or two back, ran David Lloyd George in works grey, and I was surprised by how good it looked.)

 

Then in WW1 apparently the GC sent stuff out on the road in all sorts of condition as they needed the engines for traffic. For example, no lining (especially humbler black engines), no lettering on tenders, patched-up paint jobs, the lot. Pre-group was not all fairground ride finish, as photos often prove. Certainly not during and after WW1. 

[richard i]

I agree, but as there are only a handful (if that) of people who mich even have seen pre grouping let alone remembered it i will invoke a lot of rule one. It does get me thinking on two fronts. How much quicker i can turn out freight locos if i ignore the lining on a couple of them  and that works grey must have looked dirty quite quickly if modeling it realistically. Natually weathered down to almost a black from all the soot anyway?

Richard

[richard i]

The driver arrived today

For those who know, you may notice a likeness to someone.

It is one of the excellently rendered modelu figures. This one is a pregrouping driver based on yours truly.

Vanity perhaps but I will now be able to drive a loco or two of mine.

[Clive Mortimore]

The driver arrived today

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For those who know, you may notice a likeness to someone.

It is one of the excellently rendered modelu figures. This one is a pregrouping driver based on yours truly.

Vanity perhaps but I will now be able to drive a loco or two of mine.

Cor you look not quite as tall in real life.

[richard i]

The big jobs are done.

That means onto making all the handrails, pipe runs, brakes etc.

that can take a while.

What level of detail do I really go to? Every rivet? Actually rivets seam to appear and disappear of the same loco fairly regularly. Care must be taken.

(Chimney dome and cab roof measly placed for the shot.

Richard

[richard i]

Worked on the cab and back end.

No backhead detail yet, will just be impressionistic as it is an enclosed cab.

Found two pictures of the rear, thought it had one long box, turned out it was two small ones. Some lamp irons to fit and it looks like a handrail. But they are grainy photos.

Handrails already fitted to cab sides.

I think I might paint the cab interior and then mask it before painting the outside. I should be able to find a rattle can of green, but is it small enough areas to get away with hand painting which would need less masking?

How do others get round the conundrum?

Richard

[richard i]

Cab now painted, well the front half of it.

Again chimney and dome placed for effect.

I may paint the cab and glaze it before sticking the roof on. It will make the edge lining easier to do if I do that before fitting the safety valves on. Will the patch paining work? The handrail on the cab is a good dividing point .

I would like to say this has all been planned out in advance, but the order the detail is put on is being made up as we go along.

Richard

[Clive Mortimore]

Looks very pretty.

[richard i]

Thanks I will show a better internal shot when I complete it.

Richard

[Poggy1165]

You can certainly tell what it is, and that's the main thing. Charming little engines these, and it's unlikely now that anyone will get one except as a scratch-building project. (I might add that the GCR had a "hidden fleet" of ancient locos that are rarely mentioned in polite society, all the interest going towards the big Robinson jobs. A pity, but that's the way things are.)

[Compound2632]

You can certainly tell what it is, and that's the main thing. Charming little engines these, and it's unlikely now that anyone will get one except as a scratch-building project. (I might add that the GCR had a "hidden fleet" of ancient locos that are rarely mentioned in polite society, all the interest going towards the big Robinson jobs. A pity, but that's the way things are.)

 

... and didn't venture up to Marylebone. Every time I read "Great Central" I try to force myself to think "Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire" and remember that the Chairman of the Board was at one time the Earl of Yarborough, famous for his hand at bridge that contained no card higher than a nine - an appropriate metaphor.

 

Not but what those Robinson atlantics aren't very handsome engines. In the Great Central deck, perhaps the Directors are the aces, the 4-6-0s the Kings, atlantics the Queens, the big 4-6-2 tanks the Jacks, and the 2-8-0s the tens! 

[richard i]

You can certainly tell what it is, and that's the main thing. Charming little engines these, and it's unlikely now that anyone will get one except as a scratch-building project. (I might add that the GCR had a "hidden fleet" of ancient locos that are rarely mentioned in polite society, all the interest going towards the big Robinson jobs. A pity, but that's the way things are.)

Finding info on these is certainly sparse. Most books if they go earlier than Robinson just do the 4-4-0 and the singles as a way of saying " and this is where the 11b came from (d9 for later incarnations)

There is certainly a niche in the market for a book there but is there enough of a market in the niche to make it worth it? Also does anyone know enough to make it?

Richard

[richard i]

... and didn't venture up to Marylebone. Every time I read "Great Central" I try to force myself to think "Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire" and remember that the Chairman of the Board was at one time the Earl of Yarborough, famous for his hand at bridge that contained no card higher than a nine - an appropriate metaphor.

 

Not but what those Robinson atlantics aren't very handsome engines. In the Great Central deck, perhaps the Directors are the aces, the 4-6-0s the Kings, atlantics the Queens, the big 4-6-2 tanks the Jacks, and the 2-8-0s the tens!

 

Sell the idea to the modern day gcr as an idea for a pack of cards to sell in their gift shop. Got to be better than half the stuff normally found in gift shops like fudge with the places name on or rubbers vaguely shaped like an engine.