Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock discussion

[Oldddudders]

I think the 4comp / 6comp confusion with set 201 was discussed here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6283-maunsell-carriage-set-numbers/&do=findComment&comment=65905

Impressively diplomatic, Chris! I see my post earlier contradicts what I said in 2010, and had forgotten. King is in no doubt these were 4-compartment vehicles.

 

I apologise for the misinformation!

[2ManySpams]

I'm nearer you than my library at the moment Ian, otherwise I'd have checked the sources myself! Just goes to show what a confusing subject, full of traps these coaches are. Mind you, we're looking almost 100 years back in time now...

[Dorsetmike]

I see no mention of catering vehicles - yet - I am currently hacking a Dapol corridor first into a Restaurant car (diag 2651) working from Mike Kings Illustrated History. I'm modelling mid 1930s,  photos are somewhat thin on the ground; can any one tell me if there was any lettering on the doors, the only photo in King  would appear to have nothing on the doors - not even lining. Elsewhere a picture of an Ironclad from around my period of interest  shows a door lettered "Pantry"; what, if anything, would be on the recessed double doors my guess would be either Kitchen or Pantry (or both?) Would the single recessed door at the end be lettered First?

 

Next project to follow will be 3rd open(s) depends on the availability of Dapol coaches at a bit below most Ebay prices, (best so far has been £16.99)

 

I'll be printing overlays on OHP transparencies, cutting umpteen holes for windows in vinyl or paper is a PITA with 82 year old fingers and eyesight!

[talisman56]

I have a picture of D.2655 Kitchen/Diner First 7998 in my Gould, as new in 1934 - the only lettering (apart from the usual 'Southern Railway' and running number) is 'Restaurant Car' underneath the windows of the saloon section. There appears to be no class designation lettering on the end doors or any lettering on the recessed double doors in the kitchen section. The lining of the time was panels above and below the windows (the Restaurant Car lettering is inside the waist panel), which is repeated on the doors, including the double doors. Apparently the only difference between D.2651 and D.2655 is the make and type of equipment installed in the Kitchen.

Edited July 30, 2016 by talisman56

[Dorsetmike]

Thanks, just had a look at Gould, that compares with the picture of a diag 2651 in King, so I'll go with that. (Methinks I should have started with the open 3rds, much simpler and good pics in Gould and King!)

[47606odin]

this is all too complicated for me! the biggest set i could squeeze in on my layout is a 3 car set of birdcage stock (if they ever arrive) but really a 2 coach push pull set would be best.

 

my other trains are cobbled together 'spare' coaches to cover for operational difficulties, so i can get away with my 2 bullied coaches, and my 1 blood and custard maunsell coach.

 

my question (as i say its all too complicated to me) as i model loosely a South eastern division country terminus (truncated route) did any of the maunsell rebuilt 58' coaches that Hornby produce make it onto the SE or did they remain on the former LSWR routes? unfortunately i can differentiate a bullied coach from a mk1 and a Mansell design, but when it comes down to reducing the field further i can honestly say i get mind blown. i like the looks of the stock, but if its not appropriate then i shall still have to wait just for the birdcages 

[Blobrick]

Hi Chris

 

Not wishing to sound daft but l am making up list of suitable coaching stock for a West of England Main Line Layout set around 1955. The limit l can run is 7ish coach formations, and as such l ve made up set 43 2 coach, set 839 (5 coach Bulleid set), Set 878 (4 coach BR Mk1) and an as yet unallocated 3 car Maunsell set.

 

My question is, if l wanted to make up a 7 coach formation what would be the most common make up? Could I add the 3 car Maunsell set to Set 878? or would the more common version be a BTK CK BTK +BTL BCK + 2x loose coaches depending on service? Would theses set be made up what ever was to hand as in Maunsell with Bulleid or even Mk1s?

I think what l am trying to ask is would it be the norm to see a 7 coach formation made up of only Maunsell sets?

 

Hope this makes sense?

 

Many thanks Bob C

[2ManySpams]

Hi Chris

 

Not wishing to sound daft but l am making up list of suitable coaching stock for a West of England Main Line Layout set around 1955. The limit l can run is 7ish coach formations, and as such l ve made up set 43 2 coach, set 839 (5 coach Bulleid set), Set 878 (4 coach BR Mk1) and an as yet unallocated 3 car Maunsell set.

 

My question is, if l wanted to make up a 7 coach formation what would be the most common make up? Could I add the 3 car Maunsell set to Set 878? or would the more common version be a BTK CK BTK +BTL BCK + 2x loose coaches depending on service? Would theses set be made up what ever was to hand as in Maunsell with Bulleid or even Mk1s?

I think what l am trying to ask is would it be the norm to see a 7 coach formation made up of only Maunsell sets?

 

Hope this makes sense?

 

Many thanks Bob C

West of England mainline - is your layout set west or east of Exeter?

[Blobrick]

West of England mainline - is your layout set west or east of Exeter?

Hi Chris

 

The layout is set to the East of Exeter, possibly Basingstoke - Salisbury section?

 

thanks

 

Bob C

[Wickham Green]

this is all too complicated for me! the biggest set i could squeeze in on my layout is a 3 car set of birdcage stock (if they ever arrive) but really a 2 coach push pull set would be best.

 

my other trains are cobbled together 'spare' coaches to cover for operational difficulties, so i can get away with my 2 bullied coaches, and my 1 blood and custard maunsell coach.

 

my question (as i say its all too complicated to me) as i model loosely a South eastern division country terminus (truncated route) did any of the maunsell rebuilt 58' coaches that Hornby produce make it onto the SE or did they remain on the former LSWR routes? unfortunately i can differentiate a bullied coach from a mk1 and a Mansell design, but when it comes down to reducing the field further i can honestly say i get mind blown. i like the looks of the stock, but if its not appropriate then i shall still have to wait just for the birdcages 

Apart from three Driving Trailers ( two of which were actually a foot shorter - on former 'Ironclad' frames ) which were differently configured to any of the Hornbys, the only 58' rebuilds on the South Eastern were in 'Long' sets of older 'birdcage' stock ........... so they'll be not a lot of use until you build an extension.

[Oldddudders]

Hi Chris

 

Not wishing to sound daft but l am making up list of suitable coaching stock for a West of England Main Line Layout set around 1955. The limit l can run is 7ish coach formations, and as such l ve made up set 43 2 coach, set 839 (5 coach Bulleid set), Set 878 (4 coach BR Mk1) and an as yet unallocated 3 car Maunsell set.

 

My question is, if l wanted to make up a 7 coach formation what would be the most common make up? Could I add the 3 car Maunsell set to Set 878? or would the more common version be a BTK CK BTK +BTL BCK + 2x loose coaches depending on service? Would theses set be made up what ever was to hand as in Maunsell with Bulleid or even Mk1s?

I think what l am trying to ask is would it be the norm to see a 7 coach formation made up of only Maunsell sets?

 

Hope this makes sense?

 

Many thanks Bob C

Time of year counts here. In high season, plenty of trains carried only Cornish, Plymouth and North Devon portions, while in colder months the formation was more likely a BCK for every destination including the South Devon coast termini.

[Blobrick]

Time of year counts here. In high season, plenty of trains carried only Cornish, Plymouth and North Devon portions, while in colder months the formation was more likely a BCK for every destination including the South Devon coast termini.

 

 

Many thanks for this, l am slowly piecing the picture together, this thread has been a big help in that respect. Looks like my shopping list is going to include quite a few more Brakes!

 

I hope Bachmann don't take to long revamping their Bulleid stock as from looking at photos from around the mid 1950s  most of the front line stock seems to be Bulleid, with Maunsell stock on secondary duties, so l think they will be getting a lot of my cash when the time comes.

 

cheers

 

Bob C

[dpgibbons]

Have Farish given any indication of a new run of Bulleid stock? The existing range is getting thin on the ground, especially in green, and nobody is taking pre-orders. 

[Dunsignalling]

3730/1, which were 6-compartment vehicles. The 4-compartment vehicles were very much in the minority. 

Gould (p.58) states that Set 201 (when introduced as a 3-set, BTK+CK+BTK) was placed in the same link as sets, 390-9 and 445-8, all of which had 4-compartment brakes and that implies that 3730/1 would have been similar but for the high windows.  

 

In the interior layout diagram on p.140, listed against the Diagram 2101 4- compartment brakes, are numbers 3716-31.

 

In later years, Set 201 was expanded to an 8-set, including a mixture of high- and low-windowed stock, for inter-regional use, but retained brakes 3730-1 until withdrawal in 1961. 

 

In this case, Hornby seem to have got it right.

 

John

Edited August 26, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Karhedron]

Have Farish given any indication of a new run of Bulleid stock? The existing range is getting thin on the ground, especially in green, and nobody is taking pre-orders.

As far as I am aware, the only Bulleid release this year is the 3-coach set in BR green (374-991). This is available from most of the big box shifters. I have not seen any announcements of more individual coaches.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Karhedron

[ColHut]

G'day,

 

I have followed this thread with interest.

 

A question from a person whose sole SR material is a clearly wayward excursion train - a RR Schools and a new TK and BCK 6 comp. - I would like to run a 4 comp. BK with it, and whilst not worried about the set numbers, wonder if they did run 4 and 6 comp. brakes in the same set, or as 'loose' additions?

 

Regards

[2ManySpams]

G'day,

I have followed this thread with interest.

A question from a person whose sole SR material is a clearly wayward excursion train - a RR Schools and a new TK and BCK 6 comp. - I would like to run a 4 comp. BK with it, and whilst not worried about the set numbers, wonder if they did run 4 and 6 comp. brakes in the same set, or as 'loose' additions?

Regards

That's not a combination that springs to mind from photos and carriage working notices, but somebody somewhere may know of an exception.

 

You don't say if your stock is BR or Southern period.

[ColHut]

Apologies,  All pre-war (just) Southern Railways.

 

regards

[talisman56]

G'day,

 

I have followed this thread with interest.

 

A question from a person whose sole SR material is a clearly wayward excursion train - a RR Schools and a new TK and BCK 6 comp. - I would like to run a 4 comp. BK with it, and whilst not worried about the set numbers, wonder if they did run 4 and 6 comp. brakes in the same set, or as 'loose' additions?

 

Regards

 

The carriage combination would be reminiscent of a branch line on the far reaches of the 'Withered Arm' - the BCK being the normal branch train and the TK (SK) a strengthener for Market Day...

Edited September 2, 2016 by talisman56

[2ManySpams]

The carriage combination would be reminiscent of a branch line on the far reaches of the 'Withered Arm' - the BCK being the normal branch train and the TK (SK) a strengthener for Market Day...

Agreed, but more usual was a BCK BTK (BSK) combination where both are 6 compartment coaches. I've been keeping an eye open for a 4 and 6 compartment combination but nothing so far.

[ColHut]

Thank you for checking. I am hoping that something turns up. Mostly I like the different carriages, and clearly the first class passengers have lots of luggage.

 

Regards

[Dunsignalling]

Agreed, but more usual was a BCK BTK (BSK) combination where both are 6 compartment coaches. I've been keeping an eye open for a 4 and 6 compartment combination but nothing so far.

You probably won't as [a] their were relatively few 4-compartment brakes and apart from the well-known 3-sets, they were incorporated in longer sets allocated to duties such as inter-regional workings where their luggage capacity would be welcome and kept away from commuter-oriented routes where their low seating capacity would be a liability; I'm pretty sure none were classified as 'loose'. 

 

John

 

Edit: Could have sworn I'd included the bit about the 3-sets in my first attempt. 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[ColHut]

Noted the comments in here on the High window diagram 2101:

 

http://www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/maunsell.html

 

Regards

 

So it was the low window 4 comp. brake 3rds that were in 3 sets? The high window 4 comp. brake 3rds mostly in the larger sets, with a few UN accounted for?

Edited September 2, 2016 by ColHut

[bécasse]

According to my notes, all the high-window diag.2101 4-compt. brake thirds were in sets throughout their lives with the sole exception of the three odd vehicles 4095-7, which I suspect were built to provide overhaul spares for the other 4-compt. brakes as many of the workings these sets performed needed the large van capacity meaning that the temporary substitution of a 6-compt. brake wasn't an option. Eventually even these 3 vehicles found themselves allocated to regular sets, 4095 from 1946 and the other two from 1954.

 

The records suggest that 3668 and 3669 weren't allocated to sets between June 1957 and June 1958. It is possible that they were just stored somewhere but my suspicion is that they were actually working in a set but that the paperwork failed to record that fact. (I suspect that if they had really been out of use for twelve months, either they, or another pair of 4-compt.brakes in worse state, would have been condemned.)

[phil gollin]

.

 

The BR sets often seem to have large numbers of relatively big brake compartments in their make up.   Obviously useful in Summer and with trains made up of various portions, but for the rest of the year I would think rather wasteful.

 

Were there reasons for this - was a lot of parcel traffic moved by passenger trains rather than pick-up goods ?

 

(AT Mitcham Station in the 60's the 2-EPB EMU often used to drop off small numbers of parcels, as well as the railway associated packages.)

 

.