RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted December 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2014 Evening all As one of those badgering for a Churchill Memorial Train pack needless to say I am very happy to see this released. My knowledge of Pullman cars is not great so can I ask please of those with more knowledge...the Sothern Egroup http://www.semgonline.com/misc/win-church_1.htmllists the stock as follows: The train was formed with a bogie van to carry the coffin and five Pullman cars, brake car Nº208, cars Carina, Lydia and Perseus and brake car Isle of Thanet. The bogie van was PMV NºS2464S, which was specially painted in Pullman colours for the journey, and was marshalled as the second vehicle in the train Looking at the image that looks like an old model of the van - is that the only one Hornby have that is correct? And are the other coaches currently available to make up the full train? Many thanks in advance D1015 is waiting to work the empty stock back to Paddington via Abbotswood Junction ! Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Unfortunately the one Pullman series Hornby have not yet made is the 1951 Festival of Britain series, better known as the Golden Arrow Pullmans, which have distinctive square windows instead of the traditional oval windows. Both Carina and Perseus belong to this series and Car 208, although older, was remodelled to look like them on joining the set. Isle of Thanet was converted from the K-Type Pullman Princess Elizabeth to run with the 1951 Golden Arrow set, again with the square windows. So that's four out of the five Pullmans down. Lydia was, is indeed, a 1925 K-Type kitchen car but was a so-called Low Density type with fewer windows than the standard K-Type kitchen car (modelled by Hornby in panelled and flush form), as far as I can tell. Someone else might be more helpful (Pullmans were often remodelled so never say never) but with the currently available RTR Pullmans Churchill's funeral train would have to be a "representation", I'm sorry to say. We do really need those 1951 Pullmans, please Hornby. They figure in so many important Pullman milestones from the Golden Arrow, steam and electric, to Churchill, to VSOE and preserved lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted December 18, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2014 Unfortunately the one Pullman series Hornby have not yet made is the 1951 Festival of Britain series, better known as the Golden Arrow Pullmans, which have distinctive square windows instead of the traditional oval windows. Both Carina and Perseus belong to this series and Car 208, although older, was remodelled to look like them on joining the set. Isle of Thanet was converted from the K-Type Pullman Princess Elizabeth to run with the 1951 Golden Arrow set, again with the square windows. So that's four out of the five Pullmans down. Lydia was, is indeed, a 1925 K-Type kitchen car but was a so-called Low Density type with fewer windows than the standard K-Type kitchen car (modelled by Hornby in panelled and flush form), as far as I can tell. Someone else might be more helpful (Pullmans were often remodelled so never say never) but with the currently available RTR Pullmans Churchill's funeral train would have to be a "representation", I'm sorry to say. We do really need those 1951 Pullmans, please Hornby. They figure in so many important Pullman milestones from the Golden Arrow, steam and electric, to Churchill, to VSOE and preserved lines. Now that is a shame - perhaps I shouldn't get too excited then Cheers Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 For decades we all ran the old Hornby steel Parlour and Brake Pullmans quite happily without worrying a bit about kitchens let alone windows! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D5541 Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Couple of ignorant questions having read the announcement and also looked up the full formation online Would the cars all have been 1sts, brake 1st , parlour 1st etc? Are there any external differences between 1st and 3rd class Pullman cars? I had a quick look at various Hornby ones yesterday but they all looked the same to me :-/ Cheers Dan :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2014 As far as I'm aware the only external difference is the names/ car no.s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted December 19, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2014 As far as I'm aware the only external difference is the names/ car no.s There are pictures of the train on my original link plus more here http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/WCLJ.pdf Certainly number of windows is a factor... Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Would the cars all have been 1sts, brake 1st , parlour 1st etc? Are there any external differences between 1st and 3rd class Pullman cars? I had a quick look at various Hornby ones yesterday but they all looked the same to me :-/ Some pointers which may help make a little sense of the complex world of Pullmans: First Class cars had names, Third Class had numbers. There were Kitchen and Parlour Cars among both First and Thirds Early Pullmans, including Hornby's earlier K-Type, both panelled and flush-sided, and Hornby's 12-wheelers, had bodies hand-built in wood. The latest Hornby 1928 Pullmans were steel-built (though they are still referred to as K-Type), as were the Brighton Belle Pullmans and the 1951 Festival Pullmans in the Churchill train (of which there are no RTR models). The steel Pullmans generally kept their same body styles and names throughout their service and into preservation where appropriate (because it was difficult to rebuild them). The wood-bodied Pullmans were often rebuilt (because they could!). The wood bodied Pullmans often had irregular window spacing to suit the internal seating (because they were hand-built, so it was easy) Some were converted into Guard Parlour Cars or Brakes. Many were downgraded from First to Third, losing their names and receiving numbers. Some were rebuilt completely differently after fire or other damage, receiving new names. Many wood-bodied Pullmans were plated over in the 1950s to make them look more modern, like the steel-bodied Pullmans. They kept their names/numbers. Hence the two existing styles of Hornby wood K-Type, flush-sided and panelled. (But they are entirely different to the new steel K-Types just announced). Thirds had greater seating density than Firsts. This usually equated to one more window per side. Instead of single seats either side of the aisle they had single seats one side and a pair of seats on the other side. Some Thirds were converted from Firsts simply by adding that extra seat per row (so in that case the window spacing remained the same). Hence some of Hornby's Thirds have the same bodies as their equivalent Firsts, the differences being internal, if they were converted Firsts. That is correct. Hornby started off being very particular about using the correct names or numbers on the correct body style. More recently they have started using inappropriate ones (partly because they have used up the correct ones). The Hornby 12-wheelers are mostly accurate as regards style and name/number. The Brighton Belle Pullmans are accurate. The new Hornby steel Pullmans will almost cetainly be accurate as the body styles are standard. It is the Hornby wooden K-Types that are sometimes wrong for the names/numbers applied because of the often irregular window spacing, the numbers of windows and the changes due to rebuilding and later flush panelling. It is these Pullmans that need the greatest care when renaming. ....... But none of this helps with the Churchill train as the 1951 Pullmans mostly used are not available RTR, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 As an aside one of his biographers suggested that Churchill requested that the funeral train should depart from Waterloo just to annoy de Gaulle. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 The van that Hornby have used is the same one that was in the range even before Churchill's funeral..I haven't seen any mention of a new one being released. Apparently, the one that was used had two windows fitted to the centre pair of doors: there's an article in one of the mags this month about modelling it. I recollect being a bit miffed, as they chose to have the funeral on the day of my 10th birthday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2014 As an aside one of his biographers suggested that Churchill requested that the funeral train should depart from Waterloo just to annoy de Gaulle. Best, Pete. DeGaulle? Oh you mean the one with the big 'ooter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 As an aside one of his biographers suggested that Churchill requested that the funeral train should depart from Waterloo just to annoy de Gaulle. "Of all the crosses I have to bear, the heaviest is the Cross of Lorraine." "England's grievous offence in De Gaulle's eyes is that she helped France. He cannot bear to think that she needed help. He will not relax his vigilance in guarding her honour for a single instant." W.S-C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestburyJack Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 As an aside one of his biographers suggested that Churchill requested that the funeral train should depart from Waterloo just to annoy de Gaulle. Best, Pete. The story I heard was that when he requested Waterloo he was told trains to WR destinations could not (easily) depart from Waterloo, his reply was that if DeGaulle died before him his (Churchill's) funeral train could leave from Paddington, but if DeGaulle was still alive it must be Waterloo! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2014 As an aside one of his biographers suggested that Churchill requested that the funeral train should depart from Waterloo just to annoy de Gaulle. Best, Pete. I believe the instruction was that if de Gaulle died before him, the train would depart from Paddington, but if it was the other way around, it would depart from Waterloo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 there's an article in one of the mags this month about modelling it. Can I ask which mag and what month? Being in Aus we are generally a couple of months behind with mags. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium figworthy Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2014 Can I ask which mag and what month? Being in Aus we are generally a couple of months behind with mags. Railway Modeller January 2015 edition Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2014 As an aside one of his biographers suggested that Churchill requested that the funeral train should depart from Waterloo just to annoy de Gaulle. Best, Pete. I suspect the real reason is much more mundane and practical. Waterloo for is proximity to the river ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 19, 2014 The French can't really whinge about Waterloo station when they have the Gare d'Austerlitz. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted December 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2014 Hopefully Hornby's train pack will arrive on New Year's Day as scheduled, well in time for the 50th anniversary of Churchill's funeral. http://www.Hornby.com/sir-winston-churchill-s-funeral-train-train-pack-limited-edition.html The exhibition "Churchill's Final Journey" featuring cosmetically restored 34051 and the luggage van S2464S, which carried his coffin, currently under restoration at Locomotion in Shildon, will be at the NRM in York from 30 January to 3 May. http://www.nrm.org.uk/AboutUs/PressOffice/PressReleases/2014/October/~/link.aspx?_id=FD7215D5305B46D2B4854941C103D055&_z=z Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted December 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2014 Hopefully, as none of the pack contains items from new tooling, it will be available on time. I plan on along some adjustments and completing the train. As I understand, the major change needed is changing the oval windows to square? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Couple of ignorant questions having read the announcement and also looked up the full formation online Would the cars all have been 1sts, brake 1st , parlour 1st etc? Are there any external differences between 1st and 3rd class Pullman cars? I had a quick look at various Hornby ones yesterday but they all looked the same to me :-/ Cheers Dan :-) Dan I did see the funeral train passing through Oxford from Port Meadow to the west of the line and the crowds who turned out all along the route were huge. My father, who was in the Royal Observer Corps, was one of the people who lined the route from Long Hanborough to Bladon. From the Railway Magazine article linked by Phil the first vehicle was brake 2nd Pullman car no 208 followed by the van that carried the coffin. The remaining four vehicles were 1st Class Pullmans. Unless it was simply a barrier vehicle to separate the van from the engine I assume that the first vehicle conveyed the pall bearers, guard of honour etc. with the family, VIP guests and friends in the four first class cars. Although the Hornby models are of first and third class Pullman cars, third class had been abolished in June 1956 so by the time of the funeral they were 1st and 2nd. The abolition of third class in 1956 took place throughout most of Europe and in most countries did mark the end of three classes of travel. Britain though had only had first and third class for many years so third class simply became second class. The Midland Railway had gone to two classes in 1875 with the others following but there were legal requirements for third class travel to be available so the two classes became 1st and 3rd rather than 1st and 2nd; this must have annoyed the railways' marketing departments. There was a curious anomaly in Britain that Pullman travel involved a supplement on top of the normal ticket and on many services this was actually less than the difference between second and first class. This meant that second class Pullman travel was actually cheaper than first class non Pullman but a great deal more luxurious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor7598 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I note that Hornby have car Perseus in the Churchill train pack. Perseus is a 1951 Golden Arrow car not the earlier type car shown in the illustration. This ' artistic ' licence plus the use of a very old,inaccurate,model of a GBL does not provide very good value for money in my book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43078shildoncountydurham Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Hi all, As you all know we seem to be having a problem with the k1 over on another topic, but isn't this Hornby all over, if I was in charge of the brand just out pride I would want to model and sell the best possible version of the above, but I know why bother when people will still buy them, money talks I know!!! Regards Craig Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 My list of the train is: Loco BOB "Winston Churchill" with 3 discs in a "V" shape. 2 on the smokebox door brackets, 1 on the lower centre bracket. Brake Car No.208 SR PMV S2464S in special "Pullman style" livery. (The centre pair of doors were fitted with windows.) The Hornby model I have has no lettering. Is this correct? First Class Car "CARINA" First Class Car "LYDIA" First Class Car "PERSEUS" Brake Car "ISLE OF THANET" The SR PMV as modelled by Hornby. This is the earlier solo release. R.4451 Incidentally, looking at the "new" Hornby train pack, there is no Guards Brake accomodation! One of the Pullman 1st Class cars should have been replaced with a Pullman Brake coach? No. 208 or "Isle Of Thanet"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Hopefully Hornby's train pack will arrive on New Year's Day as scheduled, well in time for the 50th anniversary of Churchill's funeral. http://www.Hornby.com/sir-winston-churchill-s-funeral-train-train-pack-limited-edition.html The exhibition "Churchill's Final Journey" featuring cosmetically restored 34051 and the luggage van S2464S, which carried his coffin, currently under restoration at Locomotion in Shildon, will be at the NRM in York from 30 January to 3 May. http://www.nrm.org.uk/AboutUs/PressOffice/PressReleases/2014/October/~/link.aspx?_id=FD7215D5305B46D2B4854941C103D055&_z=z Unfortunately, Hornby have "missed the boat" on this one. The pack may have sold a few at York, but is now not expected until 1st August 2015! (RRP Only £239.99 as well!) http://www.Hornby.com/sir-winston-churchill-s-funeral-train-train-pack-limited-edition.html The river part of the funeral has been re-enacted today, but hardly any mention of the Railway part! The BBC has this... There is a movie segment from York as well! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31041370 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.