RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted January 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2015 Even though I was born after the death of Winston Churchill I find it impossible to watch the footage of his funeral or to listen to his great speeches without feeling profoundly stirred and deeply emotional. Even after all this time and for those who lived after his death there is something uniquely powerful about his impact. OK this train pack is not perfect, but for me this particular model is in the "must have" category regardless of these flaws simply by virtue of its subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Abel Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Unfortunately, Hornby have "missed the boat" on this one. The pack may have sold a few at York, but is now not expected until 1st August 2015! (RRP Only £239.99 as well!) http://www.Hornby.com/sir-winston-churchill-s-funeral-train-train-pack-limited-edition.html The river part of the funeral has been re-enacted today, but hardly any mention of the Railway part! The BBC has this... There is a movie segment from York as well! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31041370 Totally agree with them "missing the boat" <sigh> With this being such a "train-centric" moment in British history, I am staggered that no-one at Hornby had the presence of mind (possibly TWO YEARS AGO!!!) to make bloody sure that at least a re-run of the locomotive, if not the train pack, was available this month - they would have been bound to get plenty of punters buying! Oh well, August "sometime", this year, maybe, will be in time for something I'm sure...suggestions anyone?!?!?! Such old clichés as "...late for your own funeral..." come to mind <sigh> then again, it's not like they are the premier/iconic British railway model maker or anything I suppose oh, wait... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 ... I am staggered that no-one at Hornby had the presence of mind (possibly TWO YEARS AGO!!!) to make bloody sure that at least a re-run of the locomotive, if not the train pack, was available this month - they would have been bound to get plenty of punters buying! Ian my suspicions are that they may well have tried. It has been difficult for them in the last year or so to be 'bloody sure' of producing anything particularly, as you know only too well, West Country locomotives. Let's just hope they have turned a corner. It feels like they might be doing that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted January 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2015 It is disappointing that Hornby have not been able to get the set out for the anniversary, however given that they have a few months before release, perhaps they can try to get the coaching stock correct, after all it can be used on other trains. However I am not holding my breath. Perhaps some enterprising cottage firm will produce some overlays/replacements so that we can make the train up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I was surprised when Hornby introduced a version of the 1950s vintage PMV in the "Pullman" livery, something like 2 or 3 years ago now? (My reference books are not available just now!) At the time, before the Hornby model was talked off, there was some discussion on various forums about making up a representation of the Funeral train, and the stock used. I was getting ready to re-paint a later Tri-ang Hornby version of the PMV that had already been painted a "brown" colour by a previous owner (GWR layout?). Then Hornby released their model...no connection to anything I can think off! My Hornby example was "reduced" at Modelzone when I snapped it up....I suppose I'll get around to making the windows....I wonder if Hornby will bother? (The doors are seperate parts.) Note that the buffers are a botch job. The model was designed for the cast buffers that had the stocks.integral, Tri-ang Hornby later made their buffer stocks as part of the buffer beam moulding, and fitted seperate heads. This model, along with the recent re-releases of the short (Originally GWR) celestory coaches, has the stockless buffer heads attached into the holes in the buffer beam for the original cast buffers. (If you follow....) I do wonder if the version for the train pack will be any different.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2015 Unfortunately, Hornby have "missed the boat" on this one. The pack may have sold a few at York, but is now not expected until 1st August 2015! (RRP Only £239.99 as well!) http://www.Hornby.com/sir-winston-churchill-s-funeral-train-train-pack-limited-edition.html The river part of the funeral has been re-enacted today, but hardly any mention of the Railway part! The BBC has this... There is a movie segment from York as well! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31041370 BBC Parliament channel broadcast the original funeral coverage in full earlier today - what a spectacle. As for the re-enactment, they'd probably have taken more interest in the rail aspect if 34051 was in working order. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted January 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2015 The river part of the funeral has been re-enacted today, but hardly any mention of the Railway part! Not completely true. BBC NE has reported on the restoration of the van and its reuniting with the locomotive today. There seems to be a good hook up between Shildon Publicity and BBC in Newcastle with quite a number of news items recently. Sadly these do not always make the national; news, but for those with the ability to select regional news I imagine that Look North (NE) tonight will be shoing something after the 10 o'clock news. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Not completely true. BBC NE has reported on the restoration of the van and its reuniting with the locomotive today. There seems to be a good hook up between Shildon Publicity and BBC in Newcastle with quite a number of news items recently. Sadly these do not always make the national; news, but for those with the ability to select regional news I imagine that Look North (NE) tonight will be shoing something after the 10 o'clock news. I was referring to what I heard on the Radio. The BBC North coverage is good, and is linked to in that post as well.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2015 Sarahagain, on 30 Jan 2015 - 20:25, said:I was surprised when Hornby introduced a version of the 1950s vintage PMV in the "Pullman" livery, something like 2 or 3 years ago now? Thus aping the original, which had been repainted in the Pullman colours in 1962, and stored at Stew Lane in readiness for the inevitable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 There was very good coverage with film of the original event in the documentary by Jeremy Paxman shown the other night. Hornby might not have got it quite right but given their circumstances in the last couple of years they must be given some credit for having a go. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 My list of the train is: Loco BOB "Winston Churchill" with 3 discs in a "V" shape. 2 on the smokebox door brackets, 1 on the lower centre bracket. Brake Car No.208 SR PMV S2464S in special "Pullman style" livery. (The centre pair of doors were fitted with windows.) The Hornby model I have has no lettering. Is this correct? First Class Car "CARINA" First Class Car "LYDIA" First Class Car "PERSEUS" Brake Car "ISLE OF THANET" The SR PMV as modelled by Hornby. This is the earlier solo release. R.4451 Incidentally, looking at the "new" Hornby train pack, there is no Guards Brake accomodation! One of the Pullman 1st Class cars should have been replaced with a Pullman Brake coach? No. 208 or "Isle Of Thanet"... Car No 208 and Isle of Thanet were Guard Parlour cars peculiar to the Southern Region and Hornby has nothing suitable in its range. Indeed, Hornby has nothing suitable for the car Carina either. Guard Parlours were standard parlour cars in which one vestibule had been converted to a brake compartment. Externally it was noticeable for having the oval-window door replaced with a conventional door with a droplight and the word 'Guard' on it. Carina was one of the 1951-built 'Festival of Britain' cars for the 'Golden Arrow. These cars had Gresley bogies and shallower side windows, plus the distinctive rectangular toilet windows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2015 Even though I was born after the death of Winston Churchill I find it impossible to watch the footage of his funeral or to listen to his great speeches without feeling profoundly stirred and deeply emotional. Even after all this time and for those who lived after his death there is something uniquely powerful about his impact. OK this train pack is not perfect, but for me this particular model is in the "must have" category regardless of these flaws simply by virtue of its subject. Interesting you should post this as one who never lived with his presence in the world.As one brought up in a South Wales valley in the forties and fifties,his was a reputation that divided opinions in spectacularly polarised ways.He was ,of course,the Home Secretary who sent the troops in to quell the Tonypandy riots in 1911.That forever alienated him from South Wales.....even to this day. No,I didn't go to the funeral....but I did have an authentic Winnie experience one day in 1954....which was and still is unique and priceless and will match any archive newsreel film of the great man (for such he was).My late father took me sightseeing in London .Believe it or not,you could still walk up Downing Street then.We did.And stopped opposite THE door.A friendly on duty P.C. suggested we wait a moment....the P.M.was about to leave.An official Humber waited.The door opened and out came Prime Minister Churchill,who got into his car and it came right past us. My ex-RAF father snapped immediately to attention and executed a snappy immaculate salute. Through the car window,Winston,cigar planted between lips,returned the gesture with.....of course.....the Victory V..No,I didn't make that up...it actually did happen,surreal as it seems some sixty odd years on. Those were Winston's final months as P.M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted January 30, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2015 Is anyone able to provide pictures of the individual coaches used? Were the Pullmans Matchboard sides or flush? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppercap Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 one day in 1954........My late father took me sightseeing in London....................Believe it or not, you could still walk up Downing Street then. You could still walk up Downing Street in the mid to late seventies (maybe even later?). I did that with my dad after going to the (National?) Model Railway Exhibition at the Central Hall one evening after school (we used to live in London then), when I was about fourteen. I even think it was at my suggestion. (Seem to recall we even went by car, and parked it round the corner from the hall, parking in London was that easy on weekday evenings!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Hornby have a nice page on the subject with a Pathé newsreel of the event. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold papagolfjuliet Posted January 31, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2015 And the funeral broadcast is available to watch in full here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/churchill/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Is anyone able to provide pictures of the individual coaches used? Were the Pullmans Matchboard sides or flush? The Pullmans were all flush-sided. There were no matchboarded Pullmans in service by 1965. I did a feature on the train for the 40th anniversary in Model Rail January 205 (photocopies available from the editorial address). At that time they were done using the older un-lit Hornby Pullmans. The catafalque van was made using the old Tri-ang PMV but with cast underframe details and bogies. I also showed how to convert the vestibule doors to the guard parlour type. Carina was a 1951 Festival of Britain car and no suitable model is available. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Re the Hornby pack, given Hornby appear to be using their K type cars, why are they not producing Isle of Thanet rather than Perseus? OK the former has one window less per side than Hornby's parlour car (as does their kitchen car, but that seems to be tollerated), but is arguably more of a match for their tooling than a 1951 Festival of Britain Car (different window shapes, body end profiles, bogies etc etc.) Aisde from the old luggage van, this change would, for me at least, make the product more appealing. Thoughts? EDITED -Thanet is the parlour car, Lydia is kitchen car!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted January 31, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2015 Interesting you should post this as one who never lived with his presence in the world.As one brought up in a South Wales valley in the forties and fifties,his was a reputation that divided opinions in spectacularly polarised ways.He was ,of course,the Home Secretary who sent the troops in to quell the Tonypandy riots in 1911.That forever alienated him from South Wales.....even to this day. No,I didn't go to the funeral....but I did have an authentic Winnie experience one day in 1954....which was and still is unique and priceless and will match any archive newsreel film of the great man (for such he was).My late father took me sightseeing in London .Believe it or not,you could still walk up Downing Street then.We did.And stopped opposite THE door.A friendly on duty P.C. suggested we wait a moment....the P.M.was about to leave.An official Humber waited.The door opened and out came Prime Minister Churchill,who got into his car and it came right past us. My ex-RAF father snapped immediately to attention and executed a snappy immaculate salute. Through the car window,Winston,cigar planted between lips,returned the gesture with.....of course.....the Victory V..No,I didn't make that up...it actually did happen,surreal as it seems some sixty odd years on. Those were Winston's final months as P.M. For me, understanding and recognising his flaws is an important part of recognising just what a great man he was. There is that famous remark made during WW2 that he had ten ideas a day, one of which was good and it is generally agreed that Alanbrooke made a crucial contribution to Allied victory just by reigning in some of Churchill's worse ideas and impulses quite aside from his gifts as a first class CIGS. His return to the gold standard, his attitudes on certain social issues, his championing of Edward al display failings. Oddly, the one that is always thrown against him, that of the Dardanelles campaign is a lot more nuanced and whilst Churchill as First Lord of the Admiralty took responsibility it was actually strategically brilliant in conception and the faults were in poor execution. The RN could have forced the straits into the Sea of Mamora and occupied the Gallipoli Peninsua relatively easily if the initial exploratory operations had been made in force. That said, ultimately Churchill carried a large part (though certainly not all) of the responsibility and paid the political price. Throughout his career it is not difficult to find things he said that sound rather outrageous to modern sensibilities. Yet for all that, his greatness to me if anything is enhanced by a recognition that he was far from perfect. He battled depression through his life and in a world where you will soon need a university education to empty bins (no offence intended to refuse collectors) he was not university educated. His personal courage was prodigious, many who will tell you about his responsibility for the Dardanelles fiasco have no idea that he re-joined the army and served on the Western front after resigning from high office. His service in the army as a young man, his famous escape from a Boer prison camp as a reporter and his behaviour during WW2 all demonstrate that he had courage in abundance. If he takes a lot of the blame for the Dardanelles then it is also unquestionable that he was instrumental in preparing the RN for war in 1914, history tends to concentrate on the efforts of Jackie Fisher to modernise the RN and Fisher yet Churchill also played a key role. His leadership and oratory in 1940 would be enough to earn him recognition a great man in isolation, if Halifax had became PM in 1940 then history is likely to have been completely different. He inspired a nation, and much more than a nation. His desire to join the D Day assault showed what a pugnacious character he was yet whilst he was ruthless in his pursuit of victory he displayed magnanimity toward former foes. He was also a genuinely great writer, somehow it is hard to imagine a politician of the modern era being awarded the Nobel Prize for literature (I know there is an argument over whether it was really awarded in recogntion of his oratory, but be that as it may his books are regarded as classics). Then there is his wit, which is quite rightly a legend in its own right. Unfortunately we live in a world where the concept of greatness seems to have morphed into a culture of celebrity, a world where greatness is measured in terms of money and fame and where people place people onto pedestals of perfection. In todays world it is hard to imagine Churchill would even have made in into Parlianment never mind achieved high office with his often ill considered comments and vices of drinking and his uncompromising attitude yet in Britain's hour of greatest need he was the right man in the right place at the right time. For me it is the fact that he was a deeply flawed man which actually makes his greatness even greater, as to be recognised as having such flaws yet to still have been a great man and one of histories greatest leaders is remarkable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 For me Sir Winston Churchill is one of the towering figures of the 20th century. Like all "great" people he had his flaws but thank goodness he was there when this country needed him most. Churcill's drive and belief in himself and this nation contributed immeasurably to the Allie's victory in WW2. Sadly we will probably never see anyone of Churchill's stature again... RIP and thank you Sir! Paddy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Sadly we will probably never see anyone of Churchill's stature again... I'm a bit more optimistic than that. Great men rise to the occasion. Churchill was confronted with a world that permitted him to do that. Should we find ourselves in such dire straits again, hopefully one will similarly rise to the occasion. We should all be grateful that WSC did not die in an automobile accident caused by looking the wrong way while crossing 5th Ave in New York on December 13, 1931. Just as well as it was a Sunday and not a Friday! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 If he takes a lot of the blame for the Dardanelles then it is also unquestionable that he was instrumental in preparing the RN for war in 1914, history tends to concentrate on the efforts of Jackie Fisher to modernise the RN and Fisher yet Churchill also played a key role.Certainly, and the decision to convert the fleet from coal to oil was one of those necessary modernization plans that has wreaked havoc on the world ever since with the division of the middle east into British (Mesopotamian) and American (Persian) spheres of interest, but those outcomes were not Churchill's fault. He similarly fought hard to prepare Britain for the second world war in his demands to ramp up aircraft production for the RAF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Unfortunately we live in a world where the concept of greatness seems to have morphed into a culture of celebrity, a world where greatness is measured in terms of money and fame and where people place people onto pedestals of perfection. In todays world it is hard to imagine Churchill would even have made in into Parlianment. There are two different axes here. Celebrity pop culture occupies the media does not define politics. Having said that, here there is a joke that "Washington is Hollywood for ugly people", but the truth is that politics is fueled by ambition, money and special interests and I suspect always was. I do take your point about his 'electability'. Franklin D. Roosevelt would not be elected today though I hope in time such ability (not his visible disability) is something voters are able to recognize. I will steer away from contemporary politics, but here in the US today 'electability' is all about image, financing and sound-bites. I noted with some irony the description of Churchill in the Pathé film as being a "commoner". He was hardly the son of an an east-ender or Welsh coal miner and had many advantages as a scion of the victor of Blenheim which was why he was able to enter politics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 You could still walk up Downing Street in the mid to late seventies (maybe even later?). I did that with my dad after going to the (National?) Model Railway Exhibition at the Central Hall one evening after school (we used to live in London then), when I was about fourteen. I even think it was at my suggestion. (Seem to recall we even went by car, and parked it round the corner from the hall, parking in London was that easy on weekday evenings!) The gates went up in 1989; prior to that you had been able to stand outside and have your photograph taken, if you so wished. The Met had wanted to put gates up long before, but had been knocked back by various residents, most notably Harold Wilson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 His desire to join the D Day assault showed what a pugnacious character he was yet whilst he was ruthless in his pursuit of victory he displayed magnanimity toward former foes. Here's one topic where I will disagree. WSC did not want to commit Britain to the Western Front. He continued to dally with "Istria" strategies reminiscent of the Dardanelles and these are why the decision was made to invade Italy at the Casablanca conference (which Stalin did not attend) and he used the Dieppe fiasco as illustration why delays to Operation Overlord were necessary. Stalin was furious with his western allies dragging their feet through 1943 and the Soviets paid a monstrous toll in winning the war. Even by minimum estimates, 20 Soviet soldiers died for every British soldier who died. (>8M vs. <400k) Eisenhower was cautious and as a pragmatic general he knew he needed overwhelming superiority to win. Churchill needed to support Overload because without a quick victory in Germany he would lose support for his agreement with Roosevelt for "Germany first". Had they delayed any further, it is difficult to know what post 1945 Europe might have looked like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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